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The only test of this I have ever seen was done by a vendor over the period of a 8 weeks or so, maybe longer. They set up test bottles, all capped. One on a window sill, one in a dark cool place, one in a fridge, one in a freezer. If my recollection serves me correctly they tested the nic every four weeks. The one on the sill in light fared the worst, lost nic concentration the fastest. The one in the closet lost about 1mg nic. The fridge and freezer kept best, barely lost any nic concentration at all.
Now my math might be a little fuzzy on the above but I believe the long and short of the whole test was the freezer and fridge were the best storage methods. It may have been madvapes that did that test if memory serves me right.
However I asked John at wizardlabs about this along time ago and seeing as they keep their nic in cold storage I followed his advice. Keep it as cold as possible till you use it. Ive never second guessed that. Coming from him I count keeping nic ice cold in storage as gospel.
Ah! Found it.
http://www.madvapes.com/blog/cat/helpful-info/post/nicotine-concentration-over-time/
My numbers above are not precise to their tests, so my memory isnt as good as I remember but yes, cold storage wins.
Now my math might be a little fuzzy on the above but I believe the long and short of the whole test was the freezer and fridge were the best storage methods. It may have been madvapes that did that test if memory serves me right.
However I asked John at wizardlabs about this along time ago and seeing as they keep their nic in cold storage I followed his advice. Keep it as cold as possible till you use it. Ive never second guessed that. Coming from him I count keeping nic ice cold in storage as gospel.
Ah! Found it.
http://www.madvapes.com/blog/cat/helpful-info/post/nicotine-concentration-over-time/
My numbers above are not precise to their tests, so my memory isnt as good as I remember but yes, cold storage wins.
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Thanks! And as per usual I think we are dealing with orders of magnitude, and possibly an exponential exaggeration of the degradation effect ie the higher the temperature the more severe the degradation. Acceleration of acceleration.
So a juice speed steeped with high heat, one would not then attempt to store it long term, for example, because it's well on its way already.
One random observation I had today, that on my genesis of very low resistance, the bottom half of every tank fill tends to be flat tasting, nicless, and very dark, due to cooked juice settling out. At 1 ohm I don't get this trouble, but at half an ohm I do. Obviously the build is allowing too much looping of juice, but this discussion and that effect do seem to correlate.
I could never understand why those juice makers I consider respectable, release unsteeped juice at all, but now I have a clue.
Now I am doubting the validity of a claim of a years shelf life, unless stored in the fridge...
So a juice speed steeped with high heat, one would not then attempt to store it long term, for example, because it's well on its way already.
One random observation I had today, that on my genesis of very low resistance, the bottom half of every tank fill tends to be flat tasting, nicless, and very dark, due to cooked juice settling out. At 1 ohm I don't get this trouble, but at half an ohm I do. Obviously the build is allowing too much looping of juice, but this discussion and that effect do seem to correlate.
I could never understand why those juice makers I consider respectable, release unsteeped juice at all, but now I have a clue.
Now I am doubting the validity of a claim of a years shelf life, unless stored in the fridge...
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You've seen me around Danny, I always play nice lol. It was actually your posts about temp that enticed me to search for more info. Unfortunately there's not much out there besides a lot of guessing. The tests I found were on Nic in cigarettes but I figured it was better than relying on a guess.
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Yes you always play nice and our interactions have always been very pleasent
The best advice that can be given here is if in doubt err on the side of caution. So If your gut tells you steeping at high temperatures doesn't sound right don't do it because your gut is seldom wrong.
I can debunk those results right now. I've had a 3/4 full bottle of halo juice for about a year stored on a shelf at enviromently controled room temperature exposed to ambient light in the original blue bottle. I just did a NiC test on it and it was mixed at 24mg and when I just tested it, it was at 23.5mg. Taste had changed considerably since I last vaped it 9 months ago which I contribute to NIC oxidation and flavoring changes.
So the vender basically states that if the NIC content was for example 10mg then within approx 80 weeks (just a little over a year and a half) the NIC content would reach 0mg. That's a bit off.
I'm not debating the soundness of cold storage for NIC I think thats been well established already but until some real research is done it's all just speculation.
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Danny, I tend to agree with your results. I have a bottle of a tobacco mix thats nearly two years old nd although I dont nic test it, it still seems to be as potent as when I mixed it.
Keep in mind to when most people store nic its usually in a higher concentration and simply nic w/either PG or VG. No added extra water, flavoring, pg or vg, or whatever else we add for a final mix. So it may play differently in a finished juice. Again something that isnt tested well enuff but the madvapes test was the only one I have seen done.
Danny, when you talk about nic oxidation are you just referring to color change? Or do you believe there is more at play? Or do you mean nic oxidizing before being mixed?
I always refer to juice oxidation, but in my mind all that means is color change, not any kind of degradation of the juice or nic content.
Keep in mind to when most people store nic its usually in a higher concentration and simply nic w/either PG or VG. No added extra water, flavoring, pg or vg, or whatever else we add for a final mix. So it may play differently in a finished juice. Again something that isnt tested well enuff but the madvapes test was the only one I have seen done.
Danny, when you talk about nic oxidation are you just referring to color change? Or do you believe there is more at play? Or do you mean nic oxidizing before being mixed?
I always refer to juice oxidation, but in my mind all that means is color change, not any kind of degradation of the juice or nic content.
It's a hypothization based on the venders testing. Re-read the post.
Quote:
"The only test of this I have ever seen was done by a vendor over the period of a 8 weeks or so, maybe longer. They set up test bottles, all capped. One on a window sill, one in a dark cool place, one in a fridge, one in a freezer. If my recollection serves me correctly they tested the nic every four weeks. The one on the sill in light fared the worst, lost nic concentration the fastest. The one in the closet lost about 1mg nic. The fridge and freezer kept best, barely lost any nic concentration at all."
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In my experience along with color change you get taste change generally resulting in a harsher vape. I've tested this darker NIC and Nic that has oxidized over time and I haven't seen the actual NIC content (MG) change significantly.
A bit off topic - I store my bulk nic in glass on the freezer. No problems. But my flavors sit at room temp in a cabinet. Does freezing hurt flavors? I seem to recall reading that it did. Does anyone else have any firm info on flavor storage?
Do you suppose it was meant that the nicotine level fell by about 1 mg/ml?
Just via deduction, as each flavor can vary wildly as far as it's constituents, up to a year in the fridge in PET plastic should be fine, but beyond that I suspect things may start to become complicated. HDPE plastic would technically be superior. Also, freezing may introduce anomalies depending, again, on carriers and other ingredients.
I recommend contacting the manufacturer directly, and failing that, the vendor.
I have never frozen my flavorings but the concensus is that it will damage flavors so for now it's not recommended.
Regarding heat steeping.
I am lazy, I have a heating pad, the low setting varies from 110 to 115 deg F. The heating pad has a timer, it goes off every 30 minutes.
I wrap my bottles in a small towel, roll the large heating pad around the towel and set on low. I then set an alarm on my phone and turn it on. I repeat every 30 minutes throughout the day.
*Works*, too lazy to watch water temps, too cheap to buy a heat regulated UC.
I did try it at the medium setting and found that it did not produce a better steep, just darker juice with a funky throat hit.
I am lazy, I have a heating pad, the low setting varies from 110 to 115 deg F. The heating pad has a timer, it goes off every 30 minutes.
I wrap my bottles in a small towel, roll the large heating pad around the towel and set on low. I then set an alarm on my phone and turn it on. I repeat every 30 minutes throughout the day.
*Works*, too lazy to watch water temps, too cheap to buy a heat regulated UC.
I did try it at the medium setting and found that it did not produce a better steep, just darker juice with a funky throat hit.
I just drove from Arizona to Michigan with my Diy supplies in the trunk. With all of the craziness, I left the box in the trunk (in the garage thankfully) for a few days. Just finally brought them in last night and none of the 60+ TFA flavorings were frozen, but 4 crystalized (Belgian Waffle, Brown Sugar, AP, and Sweetener). So I agree with Danny, don't freeze them. I think a cool, dark, dry place is best for storage.
Cheers,
Steve
Edit. A short warm water bath and a quick shake took care of it with no apparent damage.
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What types of measuring devices are folks using? I have a 10ml graduated cylinder and a 100ml one, but the 10ml starts at 1 ml and the 100 starts at 10... so I have been trying to use my syringe but even it starts at .5... Where can I get a hyper accurate measuring vessel that is in tenths of a ml? kinda tough to get accurate .3 of a ml without it? Thanks...
I personally like pipettes for drops and syringes for ml's.
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If the level fell 10% in 8 weeks as you suggested, and it continued to drop 10% every 8 weeks, the level after 80 weeks would be over 3ml/mg. Give it some thought, or calculation... After 8 weeks, the nic level would be 9ml...another 8 weeks, 8.1ml...another 8 weeks, 7.29ml. In losing 10% every 8 weeks, it would not go to zero in 80 weeks, rather somewhere in the realm of 3.5ml.
In the actual test data provided by Madvapes, the 1 mg drop was for a 35 mg sample, or a drop of about 2.85% in 8 weeks. At the rate indicated by Madvapes data, the nicotine level would be about 26.2 mg/ml after 80 weeks. That's an 80 week decrease of 25%...far from 100% you have suggested.
Given the vagaries of assumed methods of nicotine measurement (this is where perception rather than reason and logic comes into play) I would speculate the measurement could be off by +/- .5ml. At +/- .5ml and the degradation of nicotine continuing at these rates, the 80 week level might be in the range of 30.3 ml/mg to 22.6 mg/ml or a total decrease of 13 to 35%.
It continues to seem to me that no reasoned extrapolation of 'the vendor's data' leads to a conclusion of 'zero nicotine at 80 weeks.'
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