DIY Master Techniques - Flavor Add-on's (EM, VW, BW, MTS, ACV, ect)

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Passunca

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This thread is pure knowledge. Thank you!

I have a cheap UC (30€ from Lidl) that I've been using, with good results, but it has now a big disadvantage for me. It's a 10 minute timer... And I'm really hating pushing the button at least 12 times :)

I was looking for one with a 30 minute timer when I bumped into this thread and learnt about food dehydrators and crock pots.
Truth is, in Portugal or at least me, we don't use them, and information is scarce.
Since I believe I can more easily convince my wife to invest in this, other than in a new UC, can any of you point me the directions of what should I be looking for?

I've seen some crock pots with nice pricing but, I really don't know how high temperatures rise in Warm, Low and High modes and I'm afraid of nicotine degradation.
Also seen some food dehydrators and wondered how can I use 30ml or bigger bottles in it. Those shelves seem tiny.

Thank's in advance.
 

cecsystems

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This thread is pure knowledge. Thank you!

I have a cheap UC (30€ from Lidl) that I've been using, with good results, but it has now a big disadvantage for me. It's a 10 minute timer... And I'm really hating pushing the button at least 12 times :)

I was looking for one with a 30 minute timer when I bumped into this thread and learnt about food dehydrators and crock pots.
Truth is, in Portugal or at least me, we don't use them, and information is scarce.
Since I believe I can more easily convince my wife to invest in this, other than in a new UC, can any of you point me the directions of what should I be looking for?

I've seen some crock pots with nice pricing but, I really don't know how high temperatures rise in Warm, Low and High modes and I'm afraid of nicotine degradation.
Also seen some food dehydrators and wondered how can I use 30ml or bigger bottles in it. Those shelves seem tiny.

Thank's in advance.

You need to look for a Warm Stone Massage heater, Such as this one. Just an example of the type of product to look for... Professional Massage Stone Warmer 18 qt. Professional grade stone warmer. Please be aware that you can't really do "stew" in these... lol.
 

downInTn

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This thread is pure knowledge. Thank you!

I have a cheap UC (30€ from Lidl) that I've been using, with good results, but it has now a big disadvantage for me. It's a 10 minute timer... And I'm really hating pushing the button at least 12 times :)

I was looking for one with a 30 minute timer when I bumped into this thread and learnt about food dehydrators and crock pots.
Truth is, in Portugal or at least me, we don't use them, and information is scarce.
Since I believe I can more easily convince my wife to invest in this, other than in a new UC, can any of you point me the directions of what should I be looking for?

I've seen some crock pots with nice pricing but, I really don't know how high temperatures rise in Warm, Low and High modes and I'm afraid of nicotine degradation.
Also seen some food dehydrators and wondered how can I use 30ml or bigger bottles in it. Those shelves seem tiny.

Thank's in advance.


I've found that my crock pot, it's a small sized one, will stay at ~150 on the low setting with the lid cracked.
 

smitty727

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After reading all this excellent information about UC's & dehydrators I immediately started snooping around Ebay to see what was available. Kind of confusing as I know nothing about these devices and prices range from about $40 to mega $$$ so I figured I'd go somewhere in the middle range at about $80 - $100. I did notice that most of the less expensive models only heated to about 140 degrees. Then I read we2rcool's post about 4 hrs @ 150 degrees in a crock pot and realized the wife already has a crock pot. Thank you we2rcool!!! I'm assuming I just put a little water in the crock pot and place the juice in glass bottles sitting on the bottom with caps on the bottles. And we2rcool mentioned shaking the bottles about every hour. Is that the correct way? Thanks to all, especially we2rcool, buffaloguy and dannyv45, for sharing your knowledge. This is a great thread.

Edit:
Oops, after rereading tonight I noticed that buffaloguy was the one who mentioned using the crock pot @ 150 degrees. We2rcool used the dehydrator. Didn't mean to slight you at all buffaloguy. Both of you have given excellent information.
 
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VegasDealer

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Over the past few weeks I have read about using crock pots and dehydrators for heat steeping, so I have tried both now.

I first grabbed the wife's crock pot (before someone mentioned a dehydrator) and put in five 15ml glass bottles (I use ONLY glass in all of my mixing) and set the unit on "low". I let the bottles of juice cook for four hours as suggested in this thread. When I went to retrieve the bottles they were so hot I needed tongs and an oven mitt to touch them. Evidently the "low" setting on her crock pot is WAY HIGHER than 150 degrees. As I am typing this out I am vaping one of the 18mg flavors I cooked in the crock and it seems to have a bit of a bite to it.

I then read about using a food dehydrator in this thread. When reading that a light bulb went off in my head! The wife also has a 6 drawer (all removable with a cover to replace the missing drawers) one and it also has a 40-hour timer and a temperature control setting up to 160 degrees. So, I removed three drawers, set the unit for four hours at 150 degrees and inserted 8 15ml bottles of new mixes I recently acquired (all tobaccos). After 90 minutes I checked the bottles and I could easily touch them with my bare hands. I shook each bottle then uncapped each one. When uncapping there was a slight pressure "whoosh" sound releasing pressure from the capped bottles. I replaced the caps and reinserted the bottles for the remaining 2 1/2 hours. I then pulled the bottles out after the completion of the four hours and once again uncapped them, but this time there was no pressure release upon doing so. I smelled each one and they all smelled exactly as I expected. None smelled like alcohol or perfume. They smelled "done" and steeped. They have all now been sitting for 12 hours capped at room temperature and I have once again uncapped each one (no pressure release) and again smelled each one. They all smell fantastic. My main problem now is that they are all menthol tobacco mixes (I can't stand menthol and mixed them for my wife) and my wife has yet to try any of them. So, today I will mix up batches that I will personally vape and will use flavors I am familiar with so I will know if they are "done" after four hours steeping in the dehydrator (I will also redo the flavors I originally cooked in the crock pot to compare the taste difference, if any, between the ultra-hot crock pot and the temperature controlled dehydrator).

I also have a heated UC which I have used in the past as well (where I first learned the hard way that using plastic bottles WILL LEACH chemicals into the juice) and it seemed as though it helped a bit without heat. The heating feature on my UC is not adjustable and the water gets so hot that one can not put their bare hands in it. I now use the UC with the heat on to clean coils :).

For me, it seems as heating WILL speed steep the juices, but it's just getting it "right". And I am leaning heavily towards the dehydrator and the controlled temperature settings.

I know that some may think that speed steeping will not replace natural steeping, and they may be right. But I do think that speed steeping with heat will definitely give a natural steep a "jump start". Some also wonder "why" people are in so much of a hurry to steep juice, and for individual usage I understand those thoughts. However, I personally have over 150 different flavorings (at last count) and make juice for friends and co-workers. I also have several shops waiting on me to be able to provide them with juice for their customers. I do not want to make up juice, distribute it how I do, then tell everyone "BTW you may have to wait a few weeks to let the stuff mature". People want to vape what they buy instantly and expect it to be fully matured when they receive it (except for the few patient people, which there are not many in this world). So, this is "why" we are trying to figure out the best method to "speed steep".
 
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downInTn

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My crock pot with the lid on will eventually get to ~190, with the lid off it's ~120, leaving it cracked about 1/2 inch seems to maintain ~150. I'm a new DIY'er so don't have anything to really compare my juices to but the color change sure seems right.

@smitty, yeah that's it. Just shake every so often, maybe give them a burp once or twice.
 
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dannyv45

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Over the past few weeks I have read about using crock pots and dehydrators for heat steeping, so I have tried both now.

I first grabbed the wife's crock pot (before someone mentioned a dehydrator) and put in five 15ml glass bottles (I use ONLY glass in all of my mixing) and set the unit on "low". I let the bottles of juice cook for four hours as suggested in this thread. When I went to retrieve the bottles they were so hot I needed tongs and an oven mitt to touch them. Evidently the "low" setting on her crock pot is WAY HIGHER than 150 degrees. As I am typing this out I am vaping one of the 18mg flavors I cooked in the crock and it seems to have a bit of a bite to it.

I then read about using a food dehydrator in this thread. When reading that a light bulb went off in my head! The wife also has a 6 drawer (all removable with a cover to replace the missing drawers) one and it also has a 40-hour timer and a temperature control setting up to 160 degrees. So, I removed three drawers, set the unit for four hours at 150 degrees and inserted 8 15ml bottles of new mixes I recently acquired (all tobaccos). After 90 minutes I checked the bottles and I could easily touch them with my bare hands. I shook each bottle then uncapped each one. When uncapping there was a slight pressure "whoosh" sound releasing pressure from the capped bottles. I replaced the caps and reinserted the bottles for the remaining 2 1/2 hours. I then pulled the bottles out after the completion of the four hours and once again uncapped them, but this time there was no pressure release upon doing so. I smelled each one and they all smelled exactly as I expected. None smelled like alcohol or perfume. They smelled "done" and steeped. They have all now been sitting for 12 hours capped at room temperature and I have once again uncapped each one (no pressure release) and again smelled each one. They all smell fantastic. My main problem now is that they are all menthol tobacco mixes (I can't stand menthol and mixed them for my wife) and my wife has yet to try any of them. So, today I will mix up batches that I will personally vape and will use flavors I am familiar with so I will know if they are "done" after four hours steeping in the dehydrator (I will also redo the flavors I originally cooked in the crock pot to compare the taste difference, if any, between the ultra-hot crock pot and the temperature controlled dehydrator).

I also have a heated UC which I have used in the past as well (where I first learned the hard way that using plastic bottles WILL LEACH chemicals into the juice) and it seemed as though it helped a bit without heat. The heating feature on my UC is not adjustable and the water gets so hot that one can not put their bare hands in it. I now use the UC with the heat on to clean coils :).

For me, it seems as heating WILL speed steep the juices, but it's just getting it "right". And I am leaning heavily towards the dehydrator and the controlled temperature settings.

I know that some may think that speed steeping will not replace natural steeping, and they may be right. But I do think that speed steeping with heat will definitely give a natural steep a "jump start". Some also wonder "why" people are in so much of a hurry to steep juice, and for individual usage I understand those thoughts. However, I personally have over 150 different flavorings (at last count) and make juice for friends and co-workers. I also have several shops waiting on me to be able to provide them with juice for their customers. I do not want to make up juice, distribute it how I do, then tell everyone "BTW you may have to wait a few weeks to let the stuff mature". People want to vape what they buy instantly and expect it to be fully matured when they receive it (except for the few patient people, which there are not many in this world). So, this is "why" we are trying to figure out the best method to "speed steep".



Great report on your efforts please keep us informed. Your getting me closer to pulling the trigger on a dehydrator.
 

Passunca

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I'm leaning towards the dehydrator as the ones I've seen are cheaper, and also because I think it might be easier to maintain a constant controlled temperature during the process.

Thanks again, I will keep lurking this thread.

Now, onto search mode. I need to find and learn to operate a cheap dehydrator, where I can handle 30ml bottles, and 220v :)
 

smitty727

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Please correct me if I'm wrong but it appears to me that based on the research by buffaloguy and verified by we2rcool the main concern for "speed steeping" is to maintain the juice at about 150 degrees for 4 hours and shake occasionally. The heat source, whether it be a UC, dehydrator, crock pot or whatever really makes no difference. The oven in my kitchen stove or a countertop convection oven should work just as well. Correct???
As far as I can recall, I was the one who tested lemon juice and the effects it had on fruit flavors. At the time I was also using sucralose (ezsweets) in fruit/bakery flavors. I also tested distilled vinegar (not acv, I dont use it) on tobaccos.

What I found with fruit and bakery vapes is they were great initally with the additives, for about two days. Then on day 3 like clockwork the sharpness/crispness of the flavor was just... plain... gone. It never rebounded either. It just continued decline. So I started testing the same juices with lemon juice and sucralose separately. Trying to find the culprit. The result in my tests was that they BOTH decrease flavor output of ejuice. While they help initally boost and sweeten flavor, within a few days, they both cause ejuice to simply go flat. While its a more dramatic example, I feel the same way about ejuice with lemon or sucralose as I do about flat soda pop. Its just lackluster.

This occured in both high VG bases at 80% and high PG bases at 80%. I tested both because I didnt want people calling me out saying VG mutes flavor, which to this day I refute as utter nonsense.

I no longer use either in any of my mixing. I have found that using fruit flavors with alcohol bases provide more than enuff sweetening o. their own if they are steeped for 48-72 hours, and it helps that I use 80%VG in my juice.

As far as tobaccos go I also agree vinegar that after a few days it can flatten flavors over time. However!!! As I vape mostly tobacco ejuices I still add 1 drop/5ml of distilled white vinegar to my vapes. To counter the flattening I adjust by adding slightly more flavoring. About .5% to 1% more flavoring in a final mix. In my experience this counters the effect of flavor flattening with DV and allows mostly all tobacco vapes to round out immediately. (note: i also heat steep my juices at a constant 150° in a water bath in a crock pot for four hours after mixing and have found it it adds about 2 weeks to the aging process of ejuice). At the 2 weeks mark (in my case then this is 4 hours after mixing), all of your tobacco flavors will have a spike in flavor and will stay there, but only round more given time. Giving you a spiked up flavor but still rounded body to your vape. I found apple cider vinegar made bad and good juuces worse with no spike at all, but to be fair I barely ever tested acv.

All of my vapes... yes read that as ALL... are primed and full bodied in four hours. Period. Ultrasonic isnt the answer either. Hand shaking is enuff for juice. Heat allows flavor dissipation and release FAR FAR better.

Alot of what I do flys in the face of common and well "documented" processes others use like ultrasonic steeping tho. (if it works for ya, great. I know what I know and heat is the key, not vibration. And yeah, I tested that too about three months ago so I stand behind it).

People just pretty much ignored my testing. I took painstaking measures to control the samples and.prove to myself the results. Today when people say they use lemon juice, or sucralose and RAVE about the results.... I know they are NOT vaping stellar juice. They are absolutely, positively, better off without both. Unless they are going to vape what they make in under two days.

Note: I did not bother testing the effects of citric acid powder in juice, but I assume it has the same effect as lemon juice and mutes flavors.
 
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we2rcool

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Please correct me if I'm wrong but it appears to me that based on the research by buffaloguy and verified by we2rcool the main concern for "speed steeping" is to maintain the juice at about 150 degrees for 4 hours and shake occasionally. The heat source, whether it be a UC, dehydrator, crock pot or whatever really makes no difference. The oven in my kitchen stove or a countertop convection oven should work just as well. Correct???

Absolutely correct. No specialty gizmo needed - just a steady 150 degrees.
 

VegasDealer

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I have now used the dehydrator on over 20 different flavored juices, all in 15ml glass bottles and all mixed at 18mg 50/50 levels. I have not yet tasted all of the flavors because when I taste juice I usually vape a full 2.5ml tank through the course of one day so as to give the taste of the juice a real chance to impress me (or not).

I have been vaping nothing but the "speed steeped" juices (including one that is an RY4 mix) and have been going back for a second tank on each flavor that I mixed/steeped. For me, the dehydrator set at 150 degrees is a roaring success.

This upcoming week I will concentrate on nothing but tobacco mixes (with no menthol in them so that I can personally vape them) to put the method to it's ultimate "speed steeping" test.
 

we2rcool

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I have now used the dehydrator on over 20 different flavored juices, all in 15ml glass bottles and all mixed at 18mg 50/50 levels. I have not yet tasted all of the flavors because when I taste juice I usually vape a full 2.5ml tank through the course of one day so as to give the taste of the juice a real chance to impress me (or not).

I have been vaping nothing but the "speed steeped" juices (including one that is an RY4 mix) and have been going back for a second tank on each flavor that I mixed/steeped. For me, the dehydrator set at 150 degrees is a roaring success.

This upcoming week I will concentrate on nothing but tobacco mixes (with no menthol in them so that I can personally vape them) to put the method to it's ultimate "speed steeping" test.

EXCELLENT! This is what DIYing is all about! Thank you very much for sharing your results (so far), and now testing the tobaccos. If we all can consistently manage to turn "4 weeks" into less than one day on these persnickety tobaccos, it'll be the fastest (and most thorough) way to steep anyone has discovered. Did we mention? THIS is what DIYing's all about.

A huge thank you to buffaloguy!
 

Passunca

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Absolutely correct. No specialty gizmo needed - just a steady 150 degrees.

I believe dannyv45 mentioned that 150F gives a harsher taste to juice, comparing to 120F.
Have you tried doing it @120F for 4 hours? Or @120 for 6 hours? Or @120F for 8 hours?

If so, did you notice something different?

I believe steady temperature is the key, my question is: by changing temperature and time, would we get different (meaningful) results?
We now know that 4H@150F do the trick. Would 4H@120F produce a better or worse juice?

What a thread!
 

smitty727

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You're dead on with that info downInTn. Got a couple of bottles cooking in wife's crock pot right now and with temp set on low and lid cracked open a bit maintaining right at 150. Thanks for sharing that.
My crock pot with the lid on will eventually get to ~190, with the lid off it's ~120, leaving it cracked about 1/2 inch seems to maintain ~150. I'm a new DIY'er so don't have anything to really compare my juices to but the color change sure seems right.

@smitty, yeah that's it. Just shake every so often, maybe give them a burp once or twice.
 

buffaloguy

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Glad all of you are happy with the results you are having. All im passing along is what Ive learned from the experiences of others over the past couple years with my own exploration thrown into rhe mix.

You are absolutely correct on black honey tobacco and ry4 double are a couple examples of tobaccos that will need a few more days to shine after a heat steep. One note I believe I mentioned becore is that I prefer to experience the progression of my juice after I heat steep it. I personally like how it will change within the two following weeks as natural steeping also takes place.

The only reason I heat steep is to enable a juice to be vaped near immediately after making it. It doesnt mean its always perfect or in a prime state but some respond better than others. Fruit flavors and bakery vapes especially. As I vape mostly tobaccos, they do take some more time to shine fully. Heat steeping for longer than four hours may shorten that. Test as you will.
 

AmandaD

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I believe dannyv45 mentioned that 150F gives a harsher taste to juice, comparing to 120F.
Have you tried doing it @120F for 4 hours? Or @120 for 6 hours? Or @120F for 8 hours?

If so, did you notice something different?

I believe steady temperature is the key, my question is: by changing temperature and time, would we get different (meaningful) results?
We now know that 4H@150F do the trick. Would 4H@120F produce a better or worse juice?

What a thread!

Would love to know the answer to this! I'm working on a 4-hour steep in my crockpot (in water) - having a little trouble keeping it at a constant 150 (sometimes it goes to 160) so wondering how the 150 was arrived at. I'm thinking it was because this is the max temp of the dehydrator?

Also wondering about the issue of nic supposedly degrading (?) at temps above 120 - I thought that was what was discussed in the UC thread?

Fingers crossed that the crockpot does the job :)
 

VegasDealer

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I believe dannyv45 mentioned that 150F gives a harsher taste to juice, comparing to 120F.
Have you tried doing it @120F for 4 hours? Or @120 for 6 hours? Or @120F for 8 hours?

If so, did you notice something different?

I believe steady temperature is the key, my question is: by changing temperature and time, would we get different (meaningful) results?
We now know that 4H@150F do the trick. Would 4H@120F produce a better or worse juice?

What a thread!

I will try out 120 degrees in a dehydrator sometime this week. I plan on doing one flavor in six different clear glass bottles, 1 capped and 1 uncapped for four hours, six hours and 8 hours, with a vigorous shaking every two hours. Will let ya's know how it turns out.
 

dannyv45

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I believe dannyv45 mentioned that 150F gives a harsher taste to juice, comparing to 120F.
Have you tried doing it @120F for 4 hours? Or @120 for 6 hours? Or @120F for 8 hours?

If so, did you notice something different?

I believe steady temperature is the key, my question is: by changing temperature and time, would we get different (meaningful) results?
We now know that 4H@150F do the trick. Would 4H@120F produce a better or worse juice?

What a thread!

I think you may have confused over heating juice Vs proper steeping temperatures. I recommend not to steep in a microwave because it's to easy to over heat juice to the point of almost boiling which will effect flavor and cause some pretty bad burns to the hands if grabbed right out of the microwave. Proper heating is critical to the steep process but over heating is no good. I too followed the old thinking that 120F was the perfect steeping temperature but very recent discussions and test have shown that heating to 150F is actually an even better temperature for the steeping process. Combined with vibration or Ultrasonic agitation works extreamly well. I've recently turned to this and am having even better and faster results at this new temperature. we2rcool has also tested this with very positive results.
 
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smitty727

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Thanks for sharing your diy experiences!!!
I will try out 120 degrees in a dehydrator sometime this week. I plan on doing one flavor in six different clear glass bottles, 1 capped and 1 uncapped for four hours, six hours and 8 hours, with a vigorous shaking every two hours. Will let ya's know how it turns out.
 
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