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[Jman8]

Self-regulation only works when those involved hold themselves to the highest standards and best practices when they see what needs to be done. Cutting corners ends up costing way more in the end.....and many have not made it to the finish line using that model.

This right here supports the position that consumers absolutely must pay for testing so they can be in the know. Those who do not, are cutting corners and arguably holding themselves to a lower standard.

If consumers insist on regulating a business, that does not equal self regulation.

I believe industry will want to tackle this issue with varying degrees of aggressiveness. I trust the issue will be addressed sufficiently, and feeling confident that the FDA will be one of the better entities around to disallow products on the market that may he hazardous.

I believe vendors/manufacturers could sufficiently address this issue before FDA gets to it, but between ANTZ and zealous vapers, I think it has very good chance of being overhyped and blown out of proportion.

 

[Kent C]

Understood, but this is a phrase that we are repeating form the preliminary reports from Dr.F. I didn't mention it in my previous post here, but initially when I read the report I did repeat it without understanding it clearly was not simply just "sweet" flavors that are this issue -- now if I repeat "sweet flavors" or "~70% of sweet flavors," that is my attempt at showing how ludicrous it is to think we can avoid "70% of sweet flavors" and still be vaping sweet flavors. While I am sure that ANTZ read my posts (maybe?), I think it is more likely that they will get all the info/propaganda they need from twisting from a source like Dr.F -- it was his language to begin with (I always said buttery/custard flavors -- and that isn't even totally true, as I see now). It will hopefully be much more specific when the study is published.

I agree though, we should just say the "~70% of the flavors tested by Dr.F contained..."

I know from where it came and your last sentence there is accurate for that particular study....

 

[Kent C]

You are correct. Not all sweet flavors, only about 74% of them.

According to that study, yes.

 

[Kent C]

Either way, vaping is harm reduction method for me, and I will continue to pursue a reduction to harm for myself.

Me too!

 

[Racehorse]

First, it is the substance, diacetyl, not the perceptual property, sweet, that has the potential for harm. Second, not all sweet flavors have the potential for harm.

Yes. Exactly.

Suddenly the vaping of sweet flavors is something that we have (significant) issue with.

Liquids that tested positive for AP and DA were the issue.

That they just happened to be a subset of "sweet" juices is merely a pointer, but not the issue because it was covered here:

the only way to truly know if it is present is to run a specific type of lab test.

Sweet, sour, spicey or otherwise.....testing is the only way to know, and was therefore the recommended solution.

 

[Racehorse]

feeling confident that the FDA will be one of the better entities around to disallow products on the market that may he hazardous.

Actually, I disagree.

Keeping in mind that there is no federal products liability law, these types of issues are best corrrected, IMHO, thru the regular course of the product's chain of distribution itself, in conjunction with commercial statutes in one's state.

Some products can be inherently unsafe, like razor blades. Perhaps eliquid falls under that same category.

This is why I said that any real business should retain expert legal counsel as part of their business plan.

(That's the difference between selling something at a yard sale, and being an actual business, FWIW. )

 

[Mr.Mann]

I know from where it came and your last sentence there is accurate for that particular study....

I see what you did there.

 

[Kent C]

I see what you did there.

and the next reply too

 

[Jman8]

Liquids that tested positive for AP and DA were the issue.

That they just happened to be a subset of "sweet" juices is merely a pointer, but not the issue.

Not sure why you and Kent (perhaps others) are splitting hairs on this. But as long as you are, I'll be glad to quote Dr. F. again and claim that no, the issue is that it is sweet flavors and is how if this does blow up, it will be portrayed. This has potential to be a rather significant issue. Take away the wonderful assortment of (safe) sweet flavors from vaping and while harm reduction sounds cool and all, the industry will be far far worse if we head in that direction. And yes, I do realize there will be a segment of vapers that always treat this as a non-issue.

I hope it forever stays an insignificant issue and that all who have great concern about this feel they can find a product that satisfies them. I mean, I really really hope that is the case. Fingers crossed.

 

[Jman8]

All substances, including air, have inhalation risks.

Some products can be inherently unsafe, like razor blades. Perhaps eliquid falls under that same category.

I'm thinking these 2 comments, taken out of context of the rest of their post, are equally counter productive, and yet coming from entirely different perspectives. Quite fascinating really.

 

[eethr]

Not sure why you and Kent (perhaps others) are splitting hairs on this. But as long as you are, I'll be glad to quote Dr. F. again and claim that no, the issue is that it is sweet flavors and is how if this does blow up, it will be portrayed. This has potential to be a rather significant issue. Take away the wonderful assortment of (safe) sweet flavors from vaping and while harm reduction sounds cool and all, the industry will be far far worse if we head in that direction. And yes, I do realize there will be a segment of vapers that always treat this as a non-issue.

I hope it forever stays an insignificant issue and that all who have great concern about this feel they can find a product that satisfies them. I mean, I really really hope that is the case. Fingers crossed.

The recognized harmful-to-inhale flavoring components of this topic are generally known as "buttery."

Some mixed flavors, like custard, banana cream, or french toast, of course will have a significant buttery component.

A flavor which is not commonly thought of to have a buttery flavor, like strawberry for example, can be made without the subject harmful ingredients.

However, a relatively small amount of a buttery flavoring can be added to strawberry, or other basic flavors, to "take the edge off," and result in a somewhat "smoother" ejuice. Edit: Too much butteryness added would bring the flavor more toward the strawberry shortcake point.

Bakery flavors are sometime categorized as "sweet." But something like Wintergreen, while sweet, might not need any buttery flavoring to be added to it, in order to make it taste "right." Or it might. So maybe the term "sweet flavors" isn't a real good description word. Only the original user would know for sure what he was intending to communicate there.

While there has been some health concerns over various sweeteners used for ejuices, that's a different topic all together. And that type of discussion would certainly pertain to all sweet flavors, while, technically, the buttery flavor components do not.

Anyone should please correct me if I'm wrong about any of that.

 

[Mr.Mann]

The recognized harmful-to-inhale flavoring components of this topic are generally known as "buttery."

Some mixed flavors, like custard, banana cream, or french toast, of course will have a significant buttery component.

A flavor which is not commonly thought of to have a buttery flavor, like strawberry for example, can be made without the subject harmful ingredients.

However, a relatively small amount of a buttery flavoring can be added to strawberry, or other basic flavors, to "take the edge off," and result in a somewhat "smoother" ejuice. Edit: Too much butteryness added would bring the flavor more toward the strawberry shortcake point.

Bakery flavors are sometime categorized as "sweet." But something like Wintergreen, while sweet, might not need any buttery flavoring to be added to it, in order to make it taste "right." Or it might. So maybe the term "sweet flavors" isn't a real good description word. Only the original user would know for sure what he was intending to communicate there.

While there has been some health concerns over various sweeteners used for ejuices, that's a different topic all together. And that type of discussion would certainly pertain to all sweet flavors, while, technically, the buttery flavor components do not.

Anyone should please correct me if I'm wrong about any of that.

Nice post. I hope when the study is posted, or even before, Dr. F can tell us specifically what he (and the team) were looking for (trigger words). Obviously (as I see it now) the tested-liquids were not randomly chosen, so it would seem as if Dr.F (and the team) are pretty successful in picking out flavors that contain these elements. If they managed to have a ~70% hit rate, it may help us if we were equipped with the same info (ability to kinda guess it). If it's as simple as "custard and the like" then we already knew this, but if it's custard all the way down to sweet coffee or sweet cola (like root beer) then I wouldn't have the faintest clue about how to distinguish besides thinking most are suspect. I don't currently think most are suspect, but I may be wrong.

 

[Jman8]

The recognized harmful-to-inhale flavoring components of this topic are generally known as "buttery."

Some mixed flavors, like custard, banana cream, or french toast, of course will have a significant buttery component.

A flavor which is not commonly thought of to have a buttery flavor, like strawberry for example, can be made without the subject harmful ingredients.

However, a relatively small amount of a buttery flavoring can be added to strawberry, or other basic flavors, to "take the edge off," and result in a somewhat "smoother" ejuice. Edit: Too much butteryness added would bring the flavor more toward the strawberry shortcake point.

Bakery flavors are sometime categorized as "sweet." But something like Wintergreen, while sweet, might not need any buttery flavoring to be added to it, in order to make it taste "right." Or it might. So maybe the term "sweet flavors" isn't a real good description word. Only the original user would know for sure what he was intending to communicate there.

While there has been some health concerns over various sweeteners used for ejuices, that's a different topic all together. And that type of discussion would certainly pertain to all sweet flavors, while, technically, the buttery flavor components do not.

Anyone should please correct me if I'm wrong about any of that.

I think you are mistaken about the issue being limited to buttery flavor components (which may or may not also be sweet).

Here's a little test for you or anyone, please name a flavor used in eLiquid that you know for certain is D and/or A free. I'd be real interested in that information, and how you are so certain about it.

 

[KGie]

.
.
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Racehorse - I've seen this too. In fact, one supplier had something along the lines of: "contains less than 1% diacetyl. Diacetyl is a naturally occurring compound found in fruits" < no mention that it's associated with bronchiolitis obliterans! In fact, the way it's written makes Diacetyl sounds perfectly fine.

If you're talking about who I think you're talking about (name begins with "V" and ends with "e"; PM me if you want the name), they just got religion; the last time I looked (today, 7/29/14 at 11:58 PM), they had changed the relevant web page to state they had made the decision to go diacetyl-free. They go on to say that even though they still maintain that the trace amounts of diacetyl were too low to make an impact, they'd rather be safe than sorry. (Hmmm... wonder how they know it's only "trace amounts," and how do they define "trace"?)

I had some time ago actually made an entry in my Evernote file specifically reminding me that they knew some of their juices had diacetyl in them. Seemed pretty ironic that a company selling organic juices talked about knowing there was diacetyl in some of their juices. (At least they marked the juices in question as having "trace" amounts of diacetyl.) In any case, I intend to leave the warning to myself I put in Evernote some time ago reminding me that they knew there was diacetyl in some of their juices.

 

[eethr]

I think you are mistaken about the issue being limited to buttery flavor components (which may or may not also be sweet).

Um, did you by chance miss my statement about the fruit flavor (it was strawberry)?

I stated that it might or might not contain a relatively small amount of a "buttery" flavoring. It also might or might not contain a sweetener, and if it did contain enough of it, I guess it could be called a "sweet" flavor. But I've used plain strawberry in DIY juices, and it didn't seem at all sweet to me (while other brands might actually be sweet, I don't know).

I think that most of the "sweet" flavors are in the Bakery and Deserts categories, so the "about seventy percent" statement seems to be in the ball park for those, considering how many of them have "buttery" or "creamy" as part of the tastes of the actual edible items which they imitate.

You would also find it interesting to do a search for the various sweeteners used in ejuices, and the safety concerns about them.

 

[stevegmu]

If I donate, will he come up with the correct results this time?

 

[rurwin]

No. He has too much respect for science... and you.

The donations came from the e-cig industry and consumers in about equal amounts. (It might have been 75:25)

 

[aubergine]

Just to recap:

Dr F: "By the way, we specifically mention that we examined only sweet flavors. Thus, when we report 74% of the sampels being positive for diacetyl and/or acetyl propionyl, we refer to sweet flavors only. We expect this to be smaller when you consider other types of flavors."

Kurt:
"I will say that most of the positive results, as in DA/AP was present, were in the usual suspects: creams, custards, cookies, vanillas, cakes, caramels, and other desserts that combine these. Fruits were less of a problem, but there were exceptions. DA or AP can be used as a flavor addition to fruits to make them taste ripe. But in general there were few fruits testing positive."
"My advise is for now avoid any creamy desert flavors. If they don't have DA they probably have AP. I would also try to get used to using flavors in very low %s if you DIY."

Either Kurt or Dr F - I think Kurt (sorry, I copied and pasted and failed to attribute this one):
"Diacetyl appears to be in a huge variety of flavors, even ones not obviously "creamy". It seems to me that diacetyl's function is something like MSG - it's a "flavor enhancer", and the issue is all the more insidious because of it."

Also natural extract should be avoided; "organic" is suspect depending upon how the term is being used.

 

[aubergine]

If you're talking about who I think you're talking about (name begins with "V" and ends with "e"; PM me if you want the name), they just got religion; the last time I looked (today, 7/29/14 at 11:58 PM), they had changed the relevant web page to state they had made the decision to go diacetyl-free. They go on to say that even though they still maintain that the trace amounts of diacetyl were too low to make an impact, they'd rather be safe than sorry. (Hmmm... wonder how they know it's only "trace amounts," and how do they define "trace"?)

I had some time ago actually made an entry in my Evernote file specifically reminding me that they knew some of their juices had diacetyl in them. Seemed pretty ironic that a company selling organic juices talked about knowing there was diacetyl in some of their juices. (At least they marked the juices in question as having "trace" amounts of diacetyl.) In any case, I intend to leave the warning to myself I put in Evernote some time ago reminding me that they knew there was diacetyl in some of their juices.

If they'd been claiming zero diacetyl knowing that there were "traces", that would have been a problem.
If they disclosed that then they were at least making some effort to honor the most important criterion for consumer choice, which is honesty.
That they test at all is commendable - few do. And that they're now raising their standards is really terrific.
If they're willing to display test results and those are attributable and up to par I'd say they're doing a damned good job.

I'm not familiar much with the vendor you're talking about, but I think that there are a number of vendors rethinking this one. I'm glad for that.
We're all learning as we go.
I like informed choice.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I think you are mistaken about the issue being limited to buttery flavor components (which may or may not also be sweet).

Here's a little test for you or anyone, please name a flavor used in eLiquid that you know for certain is D and/or A free. I'd be real interested in that information, and how you are so certain about it.

One of my favorite liquids, EcoPure Rich is a basically EM and VG (plus nic). It's sweet and I am confident there is no DA/AP.