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DOOMSDAY Prepping For the Possible FDA Restriction

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by Shy De, Jan 20, 2013.

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  1. SupplyDaddy

    SupplyDaddy I'm considered a Mad Scientist in some circles! Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Oct 21, 2012
    San Antonio, Texas
    Both PG and VG are available for many uses. A gallon of either can be purchased for around $20. Nicotine is the one area that they can really do anything about. So, basically you're looking at FDA doing things to venders that sell nicotine (what? We have no idea as of yet..). They can't stop you from using it (they can try but as long as smoking is still legal....). Hardware won't be an issue, although they may try to tax anything that is e-cigarette specific (I don't see that they can as it is not a tobacco derived item in any way shape of form..) although I have ensured I use mods that all take the same battery, which also happens to be used in my flashlights! While I may stock up on carto's and tanks, possibly a few spare eGo-T Upgrade body tubes and control heads just to be safe, Nicotine is the one thing I will really stock up on.

    If you can save fresh eggs without refrigeration for almost a year (Doomsday Preppers), I'm sure I can store nic in my freezer for several without issues..
  2. skydragon

    skydragon ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 7, 2009
    Mountain Cave
  3. patkin

    patkin Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Nov 6, 2012
    Arizona USA

    ooops... subscribed I mean

    JUDGMENT AFFIRMED Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 24, 2012
    I put a lot of thought into that question- PG or VG, for a long term storage of nic.
    Kurt uses VG, but he also says: "The other reason I freeze is for slowing any biological growth,like bacteria, which are virtually impossible with PG, but slightly possible with VG, which is what I use."
    Something else I considered in choosing; VG is thick and would it be harder to deal with 100mg/ml nic in VG?
    I froze 1250 ml in PG and didn't lose a drop.
  5. Blackbeard

    Blackbeard Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 25, 2012
    Buffalo, WV
    I'm curious about another aspect of this.

    Would there be any harm in freezing my mixed juices? Now I realize I'd be breaking the seal on my Nic bottles, so there may be some disadvantage there, but filling them to the top, or adding inert marbles, could minimize the oxidation. I've got quite a few 30ml bottles and it'd be so much easier to fill those with my favorite flavored DIY juice and just pull out a small bottle as I need it, and only having to mix the juice once.

    It would limit the flavors I'd be able to mix on a whim and if I ever started disliking my "favorites", I'd sort of lose the ability to change the mix, but I've got a few that I'm fairly certain I'll never quit vaping. These are plastic HDPE bottles, so there could be some leaching, I guess.

    Just wondering.
  6. bobalex

    bobalex Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    I'll be able to vape for at least 3-4 years.

    I didn't buy a couple of liters of 100mg nic, a couple of gallons of PG, and a fistful of my favorite tobacco flavors because of what the FDA may or may not do. I bought that stuff because I'm cheap.

    RTS and e-cig express are my sources.

    I don't think anyone will go after the hardware but I'm a e-cig battery hoarder anyway. I've become accustomed to tanks over cartos and bought a ton of 'em.

    A few months after I started vaping, almost 3 years ago, I started hearing some FDA ghost stories from my vendor. I bought a bunch of juice, cartos, and batteries.

    Nothing happened.

    Since then I've followed FDA news pretty closely and all the scary stuff has not come to pass. But that doesn't mean something won't happen in the future.

    Initially e-cigs threatened Big Pharma's slice of the pie. Anytime something works 10 times better than patches, gum, lozenges etc people will eventually figure it out. If nothing else ... by word of mouth. I showed my e-cig to friends and family members who smoked and everybody (except for two people who believe they're bullet-proof) switched over to e-cigs ... and became vapers. That's why Big Pharma got nervous and got the FDA into harassing mode.

    When someone wanted to quit smoking, the wanna-be ex-smoker bought patches, gum, lozenges, stopped giving money to Big Tobacco and gave it to Big Pharma. Patches, gums, lozenges at best only work 7% of the time so eventually 93% of the wanna-be ex-smokers threw away the patch and started buying cigarettes again. We know Big Tobacco has entered the e-cig arena. Last April Lorillard bought Blu. Big Tobacco wants to make sure that wanna-be ex-smokers continue giving money to Big Tobacco.

    But ...

    I read a quote from an R.J. Reynolds spokesman buried in a BBC News article regarding the economics of tobacco,
    So there you go. Not only do vapers threaten Big Pharma's slice of the profit pie ... Uncle Sam isn't happy losing out on all those taxes he used to be getting. It is inevitable the government will do something to recoup that money. City, state, and federal "Sin" taxes were always acceptable. No one could rationally argue against them but how do you rationalize a "Sin" tax against something that is magnitudes safer than cigarettes? They're obviously going to try something. It probably won't make any sense. But that hasn't stopped the government before. So ...

    Eventually taxes on vaping will exist. I don't see them being as high as cigarette taxes but some sort of tax structure will be imposed on some aspects of vaping. The question then is what are we going to do about it? We either cough up the dough or DIY.

    Wine and beer making is legal. I've never done it myself ... I've just driven by stores that sell the equipment. Are there "Sin" taxes imposed on wine and beer fixins? If there are ... are those taxes commensurate with store bought beer and wine?

    To me it's one of those "Mind Over Matter" issues ... I don't mind ... it doesn't matter. I've got a freezerful of nic and it'll be interesting down the road to see what's going to happen.
  7. [amp]

    [amp] Full Member Verified Member

    Dec 17, 2010
    Clearwater FL
    I just placed my first order of DIY supplies, figured I might as well try making some juice myself just in case.
  8. my4jewels

    my4jewels Resting In Peace ECF Veteran

    May 12, 2011
    After reconsidering all of my options, I decided to go ahead and order 1000ml of 100mg nic. I got a newsletter from vapingzone and a 10% off coupon code. The coupon is 10off for anyone interested. The total was 107.95, free shipping. I have heard their nic is good. Bring on the hazmat suit!! I'm gonna cut it down to 50mg before freezing. That'll eventually make us about 5600ml of 18mg juice when all is said and done.

    I have worked with 100mg nic before. I read all of the info I could. I wore nitrile gloves, a plastic apron, covered my countertop with plastic sheeting, and wore eye protection. No one else home, no tv on, no radio, no distractions. I didn't spill a drop, and I was glad when it was over. Threw away the plastic sheeting just in case.
  9. purelyscientific

    purelyscientific Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 8, 2012
    There have been tests on snus. When it is not kept refrigerated the nicotine slowly breaks down into TSNs. This leads me to believe that it can happen with any nicotine. I forget where I saw this, but I am sure a quick google search will give you a few results- Someone did a test on snus after months of keeping it non refrigerated and it had significantly higher concentrations of TSNs. I assume it was caused by the nicotine oxidizing. I'm not a chemist. But I do know that oxidization is when something breaks down.I also know that nicotine breaking down forms TSNs.

    In any case, it is better to be safe than sorry.
  10. Kurt

    Kurt Quantum Vapyre ECF Veteran

    Sep 16, 2009
    It is my understanding that TSNAs in non-fire-cured tobacco is from fermentation, not oxidation. Oxidation is reaction with O2. In order to make nitrosamines, nitrogen oxide must be introduced, not just O2. Fire-curing does this too. Increase in snus TSNAs is probably from open-air bacteria starting to eat the tobacco. With just reaction with O2, free-base nicotine should not turn into TNSAs, just nicotine-oxides, which are not considered harmful.

    I found this on long-term increase of TSNAs in snus: HowStuffWorks "How Snus Works"

    Not particularly worried about it with swedish snus. Increase of 130% of already very low TNSAs is still very low. This was after 6 months, but at room temp, not freezer or fridge. At room temp, however, there is very little nic left in the snus, especially if has been opened.

    I have not seen any studies that show that normal oxidation of nicotine liquids produces TSNAs, nor is the FDA evidently concerned about this. If this was a concern, they would have been all over it, and yelling from the rooftops. They did find trace TSNAs in e-liquid, but the levels were too low to quantitate, and the results were very similar to the TSNA levels in NRT gums, patches and lozenges. In the extraction process to purify nicotine, it is generally impossible to remove all the TSNAs. AEMSA does state a minimum TSNA level as being allowed, like NRTs, and it is not zero.

    Most of the oxidation produces nicotine-N-oxide, which as I said is not considered harmful, and is not considered carcinogenic. Oxides do tend to have a funky taste and smell, however. And it takes only trace amounts to yellow an unflavored liquid. I personally am not particularly worried about slight oxidation, and actually I have had some clearly oxidized nics that were quite pleasant to vape. They tend to add tobacco-like notes to a liquid. I suppose that if the air-level in your environment while the bottle is being used (not sealed in the freezer) is rich in nitrogen oxide (NO), then there might be some TSNAs being produced, but I tend to think that is going to be slight. I use eurodroppers in all my dispensing bottles of unflavored nic, and the air exchange through them is pretty low.

    All of my VG-nics are virtually unchanged after freezer storage, some for almost 3.5 years. Some of my PG-nics also remained unchanged after a year. Some did oxidize. PG is much more mobile at freezer temps than VG, so more likely for a nic molecule to find an O2 molecule. What caused the oxidation of some of the PG-nic? Not sure. Might be it was a lower grade nicotine in the first place, and contained other tobacco compounds, which did the majority of oxidation. Could be the PG used to make it had more O2 dissolved in it. Not sure, didn't analyze it. I will say that that PG-nic was Totally Wicked 36 mg PG Red Label, and it became orange-yellow after a year. Flavor had a distinct tobacco taste, actually quite nice! I cannot vape PG, so I gave that away, and the person who got it really likes that flavor! The other PG nics I had did not oxidize significantly in the freezer, and I would expect that to be the norm. They were Decadent Vapor, ECX, Box Elder and RTS, all of which are very pure nic in USP PG.

    Thanks for posting the link to my storage method, Salem! In it are links to all the bottles and other items I use. Freezer temps do not cause nic-liquid to expand. However, you should leave a couple mL headroom anyway. Not from freezer expansion. I had one bottle of 100 mg VG that was filled to the rim for storage while my kitchen was pretty chilly in the winter. When I took that bottle out into my hot office on a summer day, that liquid expanded, and leaked out from under the euro insert! Oops! Not making that mistake again!

    For those wondering if I am now stocking for a possible doomsday, a reminder that in January of 2010 there was the scary court case between NJoy and SmokingEverywhere vs the FDA. Our access to all things vaping has been under some threat since day 1, so stocking became mandatory for me pretty much since the beginning. Buying good nic when it is on sale and storing it in the freezer solves that issue for the foreseeable future.

    Hardware is a bit of a different issue. Li-ion batteries do not last forever, even if not used. They store for a good long time in a fridge (not freezer). Cylinder-shape Li-ion batteries are used in countless electronic gadgets, however, and will always be available. So it might be wise to get some cheap 18650 tube mods ($20-$25). They usually last about 6 months of heavy is the switch that usually gives out after a while. Box mods are also cheap and work quite well. One can buy kits to build them from MadVapes, if you are so inclined. The parts, perhaps other than the atty connector, will never be illegal. Rebuildable attys are also available, although I have not explored them. Back when I was exclusively a 510 guy, I bought a bunch of XL 510 batts and attys when they went on sale. Attys will not corrode over time, in general, and my 510 batts in the fridge, from 2009, not only still charge fine, they kept their charge for the most part. L-ion batts should be stored at least 2/3 charged for better life.

    Cartomizers can be reused after a boiling-water bath. Basically put in water, boil for 15 minutes, drain, repeat this 5 or 6 times, then I oven dry them at 250 degrees. They come out almost new. For attys, I get several cycles by soaking 12 hours in polydent solution, and then rinsing thoroughly with hot water and drying. I never clean with alcohols...high atty death rate in my experience. I vape either unflavored or low-flavor light-colored juices. Easiest on attys and cartos. Carto-tanks tend to be the easiest on cartos, since they always stay wet and thus unburned by the coil. Getting cartos after a ban might be challenging, however.

    Freezing flavored juices is probably ok, but I do not do this. I make fresh enough for a couple weeks, then make more. Mainly because I have found most flavors over time fade into less pleasant vaping. Tobacco flavors tend to be the opposite...they get better with time, maybe because of oxidation of the nic and other tobacco flavor compounds! Flavors will never be illegal, probably including tobacco flavors. I am fine with vaping good quality unflavored nic, however, so that is not much of an issue with me if there is a ban.

    That pretty much sums it up! Figured I should jump in since I was quoted so much.
    • Like Like x 2
  11. bobalex

    bobalex Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Great Post!
  12. my4jewels

    my4jewels Resting In Peace ECF Veteran

    May 12, 2011
    Thanks so much, Kurt!! We can always count on you for a rational explanation of what's smart and what's not. We do get our panties in a knot sometimes when something new comes up, so good to have your voice of experience and knowledge to rely on.
  13. Covert

    Covert Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    I am going to be picking up a nice mechanical mod and some more RBA's soon. Will also be placing a order for a couple bottles of 100mg nic. The pending news made my dive into the RBA world a no brainer. Will probably pick up a couple DNA chips and chargers as well just in case one goes out I have a back up. They can't ban electronic components lol.
  14. windozehater

    windozehater Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 29, 2012
    Kudos Shy de this has become a long overdue and popular thread, i think you struck a cord with everyone
  15. flintlock62

    flintlock62 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 2, 2012
    Arkansas Delta
    i just got a gallon both of VG, and PG for $40 total, free shipping. That's enough to last me a coon's age! Of course, VG and PG isn't what we need to be concerned with.

    Our only concern for DIY is nicotine base. Nicotine is available for medical, and institutional use, so I don't see nicotine going away (hopefully). As it is, we can lawfully possess up to 100 mg/ml (did I say that correctly?) nicotine. Nicotine can also be used for insect control. The extreme is that FDA starts to require a license for possession. That would be interesting too, because unless I'm mistaken, that would fall under the Dep't. of Agriculture. On that last part, I could be totally wrong though.

    The last resort would be to extract nicotine from the plant. No one can control that unless the government makes tobacco plants a controlled scheduled narcotic. There's little chance of that happening. Extracting your own nicotine should be approached with caution. A nicotine test kit must also be used in concert with this method.
  16. purelyscientific

    purelyscientific Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 8, 2012
    Wow. Excellent post. Blew my logic right out of the water. Thanks for sharing.

    Personally I hate the smell and taste of old nic. It reminds me of fishy nasty chemicals.
  17. Covert

    Covert Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Flintlock62 has the right idea :D As long as you have a quality mod and rebuildable set up you will probably be ok....... There will always be grey market vendors for everything else if said ban does happen......... But then again i'm not one to take chances i'm buying in advance ;)

    JUDGMENT AFFIRMED Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 24, 2012
    Thanks Kurt, And you will be happy to know, you'll be quoted again. :toast:
  19. [amp]

    [amp] Full Member Verified Member

    Dec 17, 2010
    Clearwater FL
    So Kurt, for long term freezer storage would you recommend VG over PG nics?
  20. Kurt

    Kurt Quantum Vapyre ECF Veteran

    Sep 16, 2009
    Yes, for sheer longevity. It sets up like glue. Pg is pretty liquid still. As I said, however, I do not have much long-term data on PG-nic...for me a year is not long term. Perhaps there are PG-vapers here that have stored since 2009 that can jump in. I know Salem has had good results.

    But sealed is sealed, and so that TW that went orange was either very rich in O2 initially, or else there were other compounds in it that also oxidized. I do think that is an exception, however. Most nic we are buying now is much better quality than Red Label from 2009.

    And of course FOR ME, VG-nic is better long-term...or short-term...or right now! Not a PG fan.
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