Homemade Snus with Rustica Tobacco Leaf

[Vaporer]

Well, better "just a metal box" than a fire trap left on for 3 days unattended.
I just threw bad microwave away abt 2 months ago. Geeeeesh, just a thought after seeing the pic.
A 100watt bulb and dimmer control is pretty much a given with a cooking thermometer.

FireChick,
Shipping notice today from them.

 

[Bagazo]

Well, better "just a metal box" than a fire trap left on for 3 days unattended.
I just threw bad microwave away abt 2 months ago. Geeeeesh, just a thought after seeing the pic.
A 100watt bulb and dimmer control is pretty much a given with a cooking thermometer.

FireChick,
Shipping notice today from them.

I meant you could use any plain metal box and not have to worry about the big ol' capacitor, or gutting anything else in an old microwave or even worry about getting an old microwave if one isn't on hand.

Linked to the site because of the how to instructions. Didn't really notice the oven was cardboard. I just figured a toaster oven on 150-175ºF would be most peoples first choice.

 

[firechick]

FireChick,
Shipping notice today from them.

 

[Vaporer]

Bagazo,
It was a good link for the simple process instructions and appreciated. I just didnt care for the cardboard box setup.
I save everything that breaks , much to my wifes disapproval for reuse on something I dream up. She doesn't really approve much of that either.......lol

Actually, a toaster oven is ideal and what I normally use. I doubt she'd like the odor in the kitchen for 3 days. I use it to reduce liquids and dry many things that go for 8hrs.
All the ones I've had will run abt 180*F minimum. That still works for 99.9% of what I do.

If a person desides to make their snus for the long run from leaf, a toaster oven can be bought cheap and sit in the garage.....where ever its not going to offend with the odor.

 

[Bagazo]

Vaporer, just wanted to say that I have noticed that I often write "you" without it really being directed at the person I am responding to but actually directed at the other "yous" who may be reading the thread. I will have to remember that "we" is probably a better choice so...

If we don't have an old microwave or if we have one but are uneasy about tearing one apart we could use any old metal box.

In regards to toaster ovens temp range I just realized that 90ºC is about 195ºF so just about any oven should do the trick.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Question here V and exo....any idea how long a sodium carbonate mix would be stable? Does it turn into bi-carb after a while? Just asking 'cause I got to thinkin' about how snus loses it's pH after some time, yielding less freebase nic. Could a spray of sodium carbonate water revitalize older snus, ya s'pose? Along those lines I was thinking of exo's mention of the Thunder Frosted los not seeming as potent as the portions, with the only probable chemical difference being the "tobacco spray" used to wet the portions. And to tie that in to homemade from Rustica, if 100 grams were dried per Vaporer's baking method, portioned and stored dry, then wetted with the sodium carbonate shortly before use, but dried before all were used, would rewetting them with the carbonate mix revitalize them? Just a scenario that keeps playing itself out in my head....not much room in there and I'd like for someone to make it go away . Thanks gents.

 

[exogenesis]

Definately would pick up CO2 from air & decrease in pH if exposed rather than in sealed container.
But snus tubs are sort of 'semi-sealed'.

Saw a continued pH reduction over time even in a sealed container with the rustica snus,
think it's more to do with using-up of the alkali by the general organics present.
Don't know if it reaches a lower (pH) limit, or not.
Some old Ettan's I had were still pH 8+ (I think), still got some (6 months old),
could check it out with the fresh pH probe.

Think you'd need to let it diffuse in for quite a while if just giving it a new spray-job, good idea though.

Keep meaning to make some TF juice to coat homemade portions with.
Can't need more than a syringe to squish some with, maybe need to add a touch of water first.

So maybe better to re-vitalise old portions with a bit of fresh snus-juice,
perhaps with a little added carbonate ?


Hang on, rustica - dried, wetted, then dried then wetted - this is getting confusing

Think you might end up with too much added carbonate if not careful ?

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Hang on, rustica - dried, wetted, then dried then wetted - this is getting confusing

See how it happens??? Thanks for the info. I tend to habitually look for things that can go wrong, then try to figure out what I'm gonna do about it when it does. And besides.....if I hadn't asked, who would have????

Think you might end up with too much added carbonate if not careful ?

I don't know. I s'pose it's possible, but in a given 1 gram portion originally containing about 50% moisture that may have at least 25% left, I don't think it would be overboard. Wadda you think?

 

[exogenesis]

Didn't mean too much moisture, meant possibility of too much alkali,
but I reckon you're right, even the los cans seem to dry up quite quick,
so I guess a quick dilute-carbonate spritz wouldn't hurt.

Plus a spearmint oil spot booster perhaps, not that TF really needs that !

 

[Vaporer]

Just a thought, wouldn't the original carbonate react to form a freebase nicotine salt?
Nicotine carbonate? I can't see the salt itself reverting back requiring more alkali.
Any extra carbonate in the original mix may be reacting on the remainder of the organic material, which seems to be, and the pH drops as it it used in the breakdown of the material.
So, the freebase nicotine would still be there, not just pH required to "help" it in adsorbtion. This being the case, I don't see an alkali buildup.
Of course, I could be wrong too...................

 

[exogenesis]

Well, as I understand it it's just an equilibrium, so as the pH drops,
some proportion of the freebase nic. would revert to the ionised form,
regardless of the cause of pH drop.

Was thinking about 'too much alkali' in terms of too much added at once,
in the 'top up', rather than a build up.

Of course the bicarbonate ion itself would build up if you kept adding
disodium carbonate & the organics kept sinking the dissociated water.

I guess in reaction terms it's:
CO3(2-) + H2O --> HCO3(-) + OH(-) = alkaline, causing:
Nic(+) + OH(-) --> Nic(OH)

i.e.
CO3(2-) + H2O + Nic(+) --> HCO3(-) + Nic(OH)
but really it's an equilibrium, nic. is in a ratio of freebase to ionised form
depending on amount of excess OH(-), as long as there's enough excess alkali the
equilibium position is kept pushed to the right.

but hydrolysing organics:
Organic(.'R') + OH(-) --> Organic + 'R'OH = removing alkali, reducing the equilibrium position,
R could be H, I suppose.
There's also all those added sodium ions floating about as well.


Actually, this reminds me of a thought I had:
what about an 'organic counterpart' form of nicotine,
like what's done with steroids and even alkaloids in some drugs.

They put the drug in the valerate form, but I'm not 100% sure if that's to aid
adsorption in the body, or a shelf stability thing (or both, or neither).

Think there might be some merit to trying that, so that maybe we don't have to
add alkali (salt!) at all, just get the nic. into the valerate from (somehow).

Maybe there's a pharmacist/pharmacologist (/doctor?) here who can shed some light....

 

[Vaporer]

exo, this is why I like having real chemists around....lol
I did wel in chemistry, but never took levels of the classes that would address this.
I just figured most salts are stable, so no reversion back would be an issue. The lowering of the pH due to the excess carbonates action on the remaining organic material would lower it and even if the freebase salt remained, the pH wouldn't be ideal.

If the original method was used and then dried for storage. Wouldn't the salt remain and the pH be stable till rewetted just before use?

You equation if, I read it right, is nicotine hydroxide as the freebase form?

Personally, I'd prefer to make a fairly large batch, dry it for storage and wet or flavor to sit a day or 2 prior to use. I guess others may want to leave it wet, freeze it and just thaw for use. Both have advantages.

 

[exogenesis]

DVap's the real chemist, I'm just filling in...

actually all that is written wrongly, did that a bit quickly,
it's not really Nic-hydoxide as such, should have been:

Nic.H(+) + OH(-) --> Nic (freebase) + H2O

same principal and equilibrium though.

Yes it's different dried, cos the equilibrium only really applies to the soluble-ised & mobile molecules.
So more stable dried then, but the act of heating for drying could well
cause a high speed action of the excess hydroxide on the organic matter (?)

Would have to test that in practice, ie measure pH before drying & pH after re-wetting,
maybe for different drying regimes.

But any amount of re-adsorbed moisture would allow some chemical action.

I'm still plodding through my (originally) pH9 mint rustica, not going as quick as I thought
it might cos it's not as palatable as TF.

Edit:
Actually, about that 'organic counter-ion' form of nicotine thing...
in tobacco nic. apparently is a mixture of citrate & malate,
and probably 'every other organic solute present'-ate,
so wondering if free-basing is so important after all (assuming the
organic forms do actually cause faster/easier tissue adsorption).

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Sorry about this can of worms fellas. I was hoping more for a "well yeah" or "that's just stupid", but I can hear the gears turning, so for the time it appears this thread has picked up some rejuvenating steam. In the meantime, I'll have to get some tutoring to understand this Greek you guys are speakin' . Carry on......

 

[Vaporer]

Not really a can of worms TV. I got a good nic hit from the rustica snuff untreated with carbonate. Its just a matter of are we getting all we can from it?
Most of the Virginia tobacco snus show 5% carbonate on the label.
Virginia also has much less nicotine content.
Many snuffs are a light tan in color and that jut doesnt seem possible if treated with carbonate. It darkens the tobacco severly. Curing methods have to have a play here as sun dried tobacco is a bright color, not a darker brown.

 

[Bagazo]

Not a chemist but here's my thoughts for what they're worth.

I had found this a couple weeks ago.

The Form of Nicotine in Tobacco. Thermal Transfer of Nicotine and Nicotine Acid Salts to Nicotine in the Gas Phase? - Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (ACS Publications)

Basically says that nicotine in leaf is mostly found in protonated form. This means it has bound to an acid and has formed a salt. Malic acid in these tests.

This may not be the actual mechanism but I've always thought that as more alkali is added and ph rises it robs the acid from the salt thereby leaving the alkaloid in its freebase or unprotonated form.

As for a valerate this would just be a nicotine salt formed from nic and valeric acid. Don't know what benefits it would have but in any case it would not be freebase nic.

 

[hittman]

Sorry about this can of worms fellas. I was hoping more for a "well yeah" or "that's just stupid", but I can hear the gears turning, so for the time it appears this thread has picked up some rejuvenating steam. In the meantime, I'll have to get some tutoring to understand this Greek you guys are speakin' . Carry on......

TV, when you find that tutor, give me their number. I have been following this thread but haven't really posted since I feel like I really don't have anything to contribute. It is good reading though.

 

[Vaporer]

hittman, stop in anytime.
We are just looking for a palatible snus, with a kick, from bulk leaf.
Never know what we might have to resort to later on.
Better to spend time now being prepared than wanting later on.

 

[exogenesis]

It's an interesting phenomenon that switch from nic. salts to nicotine in cig. smoke, Bagazo.

I think DVap said he was sure the same thing was happening with those e-juices that
contain acetic and/or citric acid, rather than being straight freebase nic.

Unlikely to be a mechanism relevant to snus - or is it, somehow...

The valerate 'form' of nicotine I was hoping might be one of these 'soluble conjugates',
i.e. a pair of molecules that stick together even in solution
(soluble due to the delta charges on the OH groups,
rather than the actual full charges on the ionic groups - like the nic.'s nitrogen).

I was wondering if the shortish carbon chain on the valerate
(or maybe some other longer chain carboxylic acid) would facilitate
better/faster adsorption through the cell membranes in the mucous membranes / gum / cheek etc).

i.e. the objective of getting the alkaloids to the bloodstream efficiently,
which must be slowed by the 'lag' due to having to get into the tissue to blood capillaries,
might be made faster.

Just theorising really, as I said I don't know the real reason valerate is used
so prevalently in steroid preparation (so is diproprionate though).

Also same valerate 'varieties' (like methylated etc) are used as fruit flavourings,
so kill two birds with one stone ?


Would need a real chemist/biochemists input to say if this is total rubbish,
or maybe has some possibility of working I guess.

 

[Bagazo]

Actually that whole freebase alkaloid to salt and salt to freebase alkaloid is the basis for the whole acid/base extraction technique.

Freebase alkaloids dissolve into non polar solvents like xylene, toulene and turpentine.

If you add an acid the alkaloid forms a salt which will be dissolvable in polar solvents like water, ethanol and acetone.

Add an alkili like sodium hydroxide, calcium hydroxide or calcium carbonate and the alkili robs the acid from the nic salt to form it's own salt and leaves the alkaloid in freebase form and again dissolvable in non polar solvents.

That would be the part that the alkili plays in snus. It comes in strips the nic salt of it's acid and leaves the nico crack goodness.

That's my theory anyway.

Chemist! Chemist! we don't need no stinking chemist.

Ok we do.