How do you see yourself ?

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Nosmo King

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Interesting point dnakr, I don't know how much this would differ between the UK and US companies, but I would not automatically assume the obvious where insurance companies are involved. There was an interview on BBC radio a while ago involving insurance companies and their loading premiums. There was a surprising discrepancy that smokers actually paid less than non-smokers on their premiums. This was due to the fact that smokers were not expected to live as long as non-smokers, therefore would not be such a long term drain on health insurance and pensions ! You can see their logic in that. On that evidence I would think twice about denying tobacco use. Possibly us e-smokers could have the best of both worlds ;)
 

TropicalBob

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I think you're speaking of the societal study where it was concluded that smoking-caused early deaths saved on long-term health care costs, Social Security, and the like. Some questioned even that conclusion. But what remains clear is that smokers cost more while they are alive. They're sicker and have more serious illness than non-smokers. Premiums paid by companies for employee insurance reflect those facts.

How nice it would be to live a long life and drop dead of a heart attack. That's the dream. For smokers, the reality is long assisted living during a slow death while twin plastic tubes exit nostrils and trail to the oxygen tank in tow.
 

Nosmo King

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I see where you're coming from TB, I don't know the study you mention, but the interview i refer to was a straight Q & A session involving members of the public and a large insurance concern. The main question being why smokers and people from deprived areas had lower insurance premiums than the average.
Bearing in mind that here, insurance usually just means a private pension and a one off payment on death. Our health service is ostensibly taken care of by the national health service ( well it used to be nationalised and run exceptionally well until they let the spivs get their greedy little hands on it ! ), and is free on point of contact. No extra insurance required.
 

e-pipeman

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Our health service is ostensibly taken care of by the national health service ( well it used to be nationalised and run exceptionally well until they let the spivs get their greedy little hands on it ! ), and is free on point of contact. No extra insurance required.

Eeh lad - them were t' days!
Health rationing is now rife in the UK NHS - try asking an 80+ year-old patient about their level of care. Things are rather different in Scotland, of course...
 

e-pipeman

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How nice it would be to live a long life and drop dead of a heart attack. That's the dream..

Another dream would include avoiding ulcerative colitis and preventing/alleviating the symptoms of Alzheimers and Parkinsons disease. There is research out there to suggest that nicotine assists in these areas. There are worse things than death...
 

edisme518123

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It is all done in the name of health. Companies get lower insurance rates for employees if they 1. Ban smoking on the premises; 2. Ban employee smoking at any time, including off-hours. The test for cotinine is the killer. It's really a test for nicotine residuals -- and e-smokers would be nailed. It's blatantly discriminatory, I agree, and smokers are the last large group of people who can be discriminated against seemingly without consequence.

This ban that uses cotinine testing is being done, as I noted, not only by private companies -- whose owners have broad powers over employees -- but by a county government!

I watched a documentary on one business owner who stated that the reasoning on the smoking employee ban was that smokers "required more breaks and more time off than non-smokers" due to the need for smoke breaks, medical breaks, sick days, etc. Not only was this not fair to the non-smoking employees, which were generally more productive according to an internal study performed by the business, but financially draining on the business itself. I can see why a business would prefer to hire a non-smoker over a smoker... but, say I smoke only when I'm at home as I prefer, for discussion's sake, a pipe in the evening. This will show up in a test for nicotine, but a pipe in the evening after work will not effect anyone's health drastically enough to cause any concern, nor will it detract from my effectiveness as an employee.

It irks me to think that such a negative model is being attached to smokers. There's been no report of businesses being reluctant to hire someone who frequently eats fast food, or someone who normally lives a very unhealthy lifestyle. I personally see all of these as being equivalent.

There was a study done by 3rd party group (can't remember the name) on the true harmfulness of smoking cigarettes by an adult male for a duration of years and found that the damage done by cigarettes can be measured in a term they dubbed "pack-years." I.e. If an adult male was to consume 1 pack per day for 1 year, this would equate to his use of 1 pack-year. The study found that the average adult male could live through an average of 30 pack-years before experiencing any severe detrimental health effects. This was enlightening for light smokers, considering that if you were to smoke 5 or less cigarettes a day, it is likely that you would never experience severe detrimental health effects as a result of your smoking.

I'm sure many of you have seen the movie "Supersize Me" with Morgan Spurlock, "An irreverent look at obesity in America and one of its sources - fast food corporations." In this documentary it was more than adequately outlined how badly eating fast food on a regular basis can affect your health. Granted, Spurlock did consume an amount of McDonald's on a regular basis that would not be considered normal, but it was an amount of food that is normally consumed by (I can't remember the percentage from the movie)... a large amount of people. Also, Spurlock only continued this diet for a period of 30 days. In only 30 days of eating this way, Spurlock was on his way to some serious health risks.

So, why aren't we cracking down on fast food the same as we are for big tobacco? This Actual Causes of Preventable Death in the United States website outlines the 9 most common forms of preventable death as of the year 2000. Notice how close poor diet and physical inactivity is in average deaths to tobacco consumption. It is predicted that it is very likely that poor diet and physical inactivity will seen be the number 1 most common form of preventable death in America.
 

TropicalBob

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I totally agree that this should not be happening. Someone holding your paycheck ransom is seeking to regulate use of a legal product at your discretion, even during your own free time, away from work. So much for personal freedom of choice.

And, no, employees don't fire motorcycle riders who do wheelies on the interstate, the wolf (or wolfess!) who thinks unprotected recreational sex is great nightly entertainment, the obese waddler who takes 10 minutes to reach to the candy machine in the break room, the Monster-drinking freak who got two hours of sleep last night and serves as a dispatch driver, etc.

Smokers are the only group singled out as having essentially no rights.

But as for nicotine's benefits, please, don't go there. It's a delusion to think these benefits outweigh the very real negative health consequences that are far more likely. Let's not kid ourselves. Besides, you can get your nicotine from NRT or e-cigs, much safer sources than banned cigarette use.
 

e-pipeman

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But as for nicotine's benefits, please, don't go there. It's a delusion to think these benefits outweigh the very real negative health consequences that are far more likely. Let's not kid ourselves. Besides, you can get your nicotine from NRT or e-cigs, much safer sources than banned cigarette use.

No-one is advocating smoking tobacco. There appear to be benefits to nicotine use, however, and the e-cig seems a useful way of obtaining them. The jury is, as usual, out when it comes to long-term use. We should not fall into the trap of the anti-tobacco lobby who deny any benefits as part of their "total ban" approach.
 

edisme518123

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But as for nicotine's benefits, please, don't go there. It's a delusion to think these benefits outweigh the very real negative health consequences that are far more likely. Let's not kid ourselves. Besides, you can get your nicotine from NRT or e-cigs, much safer sources than banned cigarette use.

I'm not sure where this came from. I'm not trying to advocate tobacco or nicotine use, I was merely trying to state that I don't believe it's right or fair to regulate it's use any more than we choose not to regulate other unhealthy habits or vices.

I used the analogy of using a pipe in the evening strictly for discussion purposes, and the study that researched the effects of long-term smoking isn't exactly advocacy either. It states simply that the average adult male in the US will most likely not suffer any SEVERE medical conditions from smoking 5 or less cigarettes every day. The chances of that same adult male experiencing ill effects or general discomforts as a result of his smoking are nearly indefinite.
 

TropicalBob

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That was addressed to expipeman's comment .. and he answered. I, too, use tobacco daily, very much enjoying a pipe about three times a day. Since e-smoking does not have the hazards of tobacco smoking, we must always reference whether we mean smoking dangers or nicotine dangers. Nicotine is very bad for the circulatory system -- all by itself. It does, however, appear from some studies to have some benefits -- and I'll stand up and cheer those.
 

edisme518123

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That was addressed to expipeman's comment .. and he answered. I, too, use tobacco daily, very much enjoying a pipe about three times a day. Since e-smoking does not have the hazards of tobacco smoking, we must always reference whether we mean smoking dangers or nicotine dangers. Nicotine is very bad for the circulatory system -- all by itself. It does, however, appear from some studies to have some benefits -- and I'll stand up and cheer those.

My next e-liquid purchase is definitely going to be much lower strength than what I've been on. I've been using 36mg cigar liquid and absolutely love it. However, it's become quite apparent that that level of nicotine isn't something I should be subjecting myself to. Today is day 3 of no nicotine at all since my atomizer died (Steve has a replacement on it's way... no complaints there). Already I've had some uncomfortable nicotine withdrawal symptoms which was very surprising to me since prior to my e-cig I didn't smoke (about 1 cig/month) and had only been using the e-cig for 2 weeks. I had been going through about 1ml per day, but didn't have any nicotine "cravings" during my use. I simply used my e-cig when I felt like it.

I'm sorry to derail this thread. To get back on topic: I never considered myself a smoker. As I've said earlier I had a cigarette very rarely (to clarify I've only had 5 cigarettes in my life, all from smoker friends, as I refused to buy them for myself knowing how bad they are for your health. I did smoke all 5 of those cigarettes within the past 4 months, so I guess about 1/month is a fair statement. I also, as I've stated before, used a vaporizer pipe that I designed myself every once in a while, generally once or twice a week, but sometimes not at all as I've never considered myself addicted.

The past 3 days without any nicotine at all were my first experience of nicotine withdrawal symptoms and I must say it came as a shock to me, so I will be reducing my intake. Any insights on what liquid to go for in the US (~16-18mg would be nice)? I really enjoyed the flavor of puresmoker's "cigar" liquid, so anything similar to that strong tobacco flavor would be nice. Although, I really disliked the "regular" flavor that came in the starter carts.

P.S. Sorry to derail the thread again... :cry:
 

e-pipeman

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Nosmo King

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That's very interesting expipeman, as someone who has high blood pressure, I was excited and a bit relieved to have found the e-cig could at least let me cut down on my tobacco habit, but was wary about the nicotine I was still taking in, possibly in even larger amounts than before. I wonder if there has been much research actually done on the effects of nicotine on the human body, completely divorced from smoking tobacco, I mean.
 

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TropicalBob

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That's a 7-year-old take. But tobacco indeed has good properties. We've noted before that if you cut yourself in the woods while hiking, just put nasal snuff on the cut. That's how our grandfathers healed cuts.

For nicotine information, go to Science Daily: News & Articles in Science, Health, Environment & Technology and type in "nicotine" or "nicotine circulation" and start reading. There are huge numbers of studies available.

I won't bore with 'em, but did find one that says nicotine dependence is soaring. Why? Those who could quit cigs easily already have quit. Those left are wildly addicted to nicotine. That's us! Here's the whole story, published yesterday: U.S. Nicotine Addiction Reaches 15-year High
 

Lochstar

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Has anyone else noticed the tendency in such articles to always equate nicotine dependence with tobacco dependence? Perhaps the fundamental attitude of cigarettes = nicotine in America is what is stopping a broader acceptance of e-cigarettes as a viable alternative.

I'm still fuzzy-brained from waking up, but I see a parallel to the articles I read about caffeine addiction, in which the rates of which are soaring as younger populace join the traditional coffee-drinking crowd in such dependence through use of energy drinks and the like. However, in those articles, caffeine "addiction" is associated with energy drinks and not to the typical coffee consumption (usually of the person writing the article).

To me this represents a fundamental paradigm in the view of what is a "harmful" addiction and what is not. Since a gigantic section of the populace regularly consumes a high volume of caffeine through coffee, it is not generally considered harmful in the conscious mind of most people, until something unfamiliar is introduced - such as energy drinks. Conversely, nicotine addiction is consciously tied to cigarettes, and as such has a huge negative perception to overcome before studies can be reduced to "brass tacks" for a general readership.

This even filters into our e-cigarette habit... it causes me to wonder if our devices weren't called e-cigs but something more obscure like "nicotine inhaler devices" or somesuch if that would change the general perception of them via disassociating with the cigarette-nicotine perception. I'd be willing to wager to the uneducated, they associate the evil of cigarettes with nicotine itself because of this connection.

Not that I'm saying we should disassociate e-cigs from cigs or any such thing... just a curious observation I had when reading that article as it kept using tobacco addiction and nicotine addiction interchangeably, as many such articles do.

To answer the poster's original question... I can say when asked if I am a smoker that I respond with a very firm "Not really...". :D
 

e-pipeman

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TropicalBob

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I like reading anything positive about nicotine! Good article. And I do believe we can rest easy now that we have a safe way to introduce nicotine into our bodies. That New Zealand report is an eye-opener. Our e-smoking is pleasant to do, replaces the "habit" part of smoking cigarettes, and gives us selectable quantities of nicotine. That's better than a patch, lozenge, gum or nasal spray.

My blood test is Nov. 5 and it better be perfect! I hate taking medcines, but have been downing my Zocor for a month (I use a lot of vitamins and supplements, as well, however, as I prefer to let my body self-correct if that's at all possible).
 
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