How 'unsafe' can an E-cig possibly be?

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Tache

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Hi, I am new to this site. I just started vaping 2 weeks ago. I have been hearing that not enough studies have been done to determine the safety of e-cigs. Maybe I am naive, but can some one please tell me how much less safe can e'cigs possibly be than regular cigarettes?:confused:

Here's the link to a post in the "media and general news" thread. That post has a link to a scholarly article that shows that (based on information available so far) in terms of harm; if a cigarette is 99, chewing tobacco would be 17, e-cigs would be 5 and the nicotine patch would be 1.

Peer review of the actual study is currently underway.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...mmittee-drugs-professor-david-nutt-et-al.html
 
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mytsmooth

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Yes at this point, vaping is, by far, a safer alternative to smoking cigarettes. And after reading IBCR said about smoke vs vapor, I looked some more. Smoke is a mixture of solids and gases and is a byproduct of combustion. Maybe it is just my naivete, and the fact that my pen gets hot, but we are boiling this liquid are we not? I would kind of like to see the complete science of how a vaporizer is working, any recommendations?

We are inhaling the aerosol version of the various liquids we are buying/mixing. It would be nice to know what chemicals, elemental compounds I am inhaling, what chemicals are being absorbed and what levels of these chemicals could be considered toxic. And that is where we are at, with vaping in it's infancy, we do not know these things. At some point maybe we can create combinations of chemical that we can absorb that are benficial, maybe riboflavin or vitamin C.

I am sure we have all read about the vapor trail conspiracy theories. Just because we use the word vapor, doesn't make it entirely harmless.
 

Coastal Cowboy

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Yes at this point, vaping is, by far, a safer alternative to smoking cigarettes. And after reading IBCR said about smoke vs vapor, I looked some more. Smoke is a mixture of solids and gases and is a byproduct of combustion. Maybe it is just my naivete, and the fact that my pen gets hot, but we are boiling this liquid are we not? I would kind of like to see the complete science of how a vaporizer is working, any recommendations?

We are inhaling the aerosol version of the various liquids we are buying/mixing. It would be nice to know what chemicals, elemental compounds I am inhaling, what chemicals are being absorbed and what levels of these chemicals could be considered toxic. And that is where we are at, with vaping in it's infancy, we do not know these things. At some point maybe we can create combinations of chemical that we can absorb that are benficial, maybe riboflavin or vitamin C.

I am sure we have all read about the vapor trail conspiracy theories. Just because we use the word vapor, doesn't make it entirely harmless.

This site is your best resource for answering your questions. You'll have to do your own research to satisfy your thirst for knowlege, but here's a good start.

QC Research and Testing

There are a few liquid manufacturers that adhere to very strict QC standards. There are at least two (I know of) who are ISO:9000 certified. One is Johnson Creek. The other is AmericaneLiquidStore. Also, both Hangsen and Dekang have very tight QC procedures despite being Chinese liquid makers.

FWIW, Johnson Creek and Dekang are two of the liquid manufacturers that I will always buy from. The former is pricey, but their stuff is so consistently good that I always go back for more.
 

Bob Chill

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These threads will always come up regularly. There is already enough scientific and medical data on the table to know with 100% certainty that vaping does not produce acute toxic effects on the human body. Sensitivity to pg or vg would be the closest thing. That's easy to identify in the individuals who are pre-wired that way LONG before any real damage can be done.

People who question the safety simply need to do their own due diligence. It's not hidden anywhere. You can search it up in seconds and take a few days to read it. There are no dirty and dark little secrets. Vaping over the short term will absolutely not kill you or cause brain damage or make an extra toe grow or whatever. The ingredients in question have been around for longer than i have been alive (I'm getting kinda old too). If they made cell walls implode, lungs bleed, and teeth fall out we would have known years ago.

Nicotine is not the devil either. It's quite benign with responsible ingestion and actually has health benefits. I have modest high blood pressure and I always worried about smoking and heart complications. I thought it was the nicotine. Since I've stopped smoking and started vaping my blood pressure has dropped nearly 8 pts on its own. No medication. Doc is thrilled. He's been considering lower it with medication for years but I've always been borderline. Not anymore.

With all this being said, we simply cannot say with 100% certainty that long term exposure to vaping doesn't have dire consequences. Odds seem to be in our favor but the risk is ever present because unfortunately WE are the guinea pigs here. If you can't handle being a guinea pig of the unknown then you either have to quit everything altogether or choose the path of nicotine use where you already know the outcome.

I personally am willing to take the risk in this equation. I don't do well mentally at all without nicotine. I made an informed decision that reward outweighed the risks for me personally. I'm 100% comfortable with my decision. I have zero guilt and I don't dwell on the "unknowns" of long term use. I also take great comfort that not a single smoking gun has showed up in the last 5 years. It's being looked for every day with plenty of money behind it.
 

Coastal Cowboy

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My blood pressure has also come down and is now within normal, "low risk" range.

So has my cholesterol.

I breathe better, sleep better, taste and smell things better and look better.

I've even lost weight, despite spending 10-12 hours/day sitting in front of a computer or talking on the phone with clients.

If this ain't safer, I'm Elmer.
 

sam12six

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Sooner or later, someone somewhere will be injured or killed in an incident involving the use of an e-cig, most lilely a battery rupture.

If we're starting a betting pool, my money goes on the first PV related death being somebody's kid drinking a whole bottle of juice.

As far as the safety of ecigs, we just don't know. It may be that after 20 years of inhaling PG/VG daily, the human body shuts down and vapers around the World will fall over in their tracks. That said, there's no proof at this point that there's any real negative consequence. Smoking, on the other hand, we do have proof of. I've always thought of it this way: When you're a smoker, you're in a race - to see whether the smoking kills you or something else beats it to the punch.

Everyone I know who smoked enough to develop the smoker's cough or other symptoms of the habit and then switched to PVs claims to feel better (and usually claim to have tried countless other methods of quitting and failed). At this point, that being the only evidence available, that's what I'm going by. Even if I do keel over in 20 years from vaping, the time between now and then won't be spent with every laugh trailing off into a coughing fit, with every 15 minute walk requiring a break halfway to pant enough oxygen back into my system, and most importantly, won't have women not wanting to kiss me because I stink.
 

mytsmooth

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Is anything 'safe'? There was a shipment of toothpaste that came with lead in it. Is vaping safer than cigs/pipe/etc? Most likely as it doesn't burn. I've known people that have died of lung and throat cancers, without ever touching an analog. You roll the dice and take your chances. JMHO

Or the rat in the Budweiser, although that may have been fraudulent. Totally true we take our chances. However, if we are more prepared about the immediate physiological chemistry effects on us, it will likely help in the arguments against bans. And quite possibly be able to ascertain some of the negative side effects of inhaling atomized oils. It is probably quite far away in the timeline, we are only now realizing some of the positive effects of certain substances which were deemed illegal at one time, but is now legal where I live. Still very few clinical trials have been or are being done currently, so it's just a pipe dream, pun intended.

The peer review is awesome, even some things people mentioned about their circulation getting better were happening to me that I hadn't even noticed. In one of the replies on the peer review, somebody mentioned nicotine overdose, I had not thought about that either.
Thank you for the links to fluid sources.
 

psbowen

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I'm a newish user and despite the incident I'm about to tell you, it's very likely that I won't stop vaping.

After buying a Kanger ProTank I found that I didn't like the way the metal tip felt against my teeth so I poked a hole in the plastic tip that came with the tank which covers the mouthpiece of new tanks, and that pretty much solved my problem. Or so I thought...A few hours later, I discovered that the plastic tip had virtually disintegrated.

Now I have found numerous forum threads about how certain flavors cause plastic to melt and that using or ordering e-juice in plastic or glass tanks and bottles and that people should use glass and pyrex tanks etc and that is all really fascinating but is ANYONE even the least bit concerned about inhaling a substance that MELTS PLASTIC?! What the hell is this doing to my lungs???! Anybody know?

Just my two cents,
PB


100_0495.jpg
 

AttyPops

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I'm a newish user and despite the incident I'm about to tell you, it's very likely that I won't stop vaping.

After buying a Kanger ProTank I found that I didn't like the way the metal tip felt against my teeth so I poked a hole in the plastic tip that came with the tank which covers the mouthpiece of new tanks, and that pretty much solved my problem. Or so I thought...A few hours later, I discovered that the plastic tip had virtually disintegrated.

Now I have found numerous forum threads about how certain flavors cause plastic to melt and that using or ordering e-juice in plastic or glass tanks and bottles and that people should use glass and pyrex tanks etc and that is all really fascinating but is ANYONE even the least bit concerned about inhaling a substance that MELTS PLASTIC?! What the hell is this doing to my lungs???! Anybody know?

Just my two cents,
PB


View attachment 244877

If my lungs were made of that plastic, I'd be worried about the chemical reaction....
 

calico21

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You'd have to ignorant to not believe vaping isn't a real and present danger. My friend Chuck quit his job to open up a vapor store where he could sell his own home made premium vapor juice. He sunk his life savings into the store, equipment, chemicals, etc. The day before the store was supposed to open, a 55 gallon drum of VG fell off his work bench and killed him while he was looking for his lost contact. Vaping kills.


:facepalm:
 

Bill's Magic Vapor

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I always find these arguments that appeal to ignorance boring and remind me how to lose a debate contest back in the day. Appeals to ignorance, where ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary," as in that vaping may be proven some day to be harmful, is a fallacy in informal logic, or so how I was taught. It asserts, for example, that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false. This is a false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation, and therefore, insufficient information to prove the proposition to be either true or false. It also excludes the possibility that the information might remain unknown between true or false (certainly a likelihood in medicine), or that the proposition may be unknowable (certainly a probability in medicine). I remember in debate class, we used appeals to ignorance to try to shift the burden of proof to the other guy, i.e., "You can't say it's harmless just because it hasn't yet been proven to be harmful."

The reason this whole line of reasoning is fallacious, misleading and confusing is that while we may never find out if vaping is harmless (relatively so), you can still have good reasons for thinking that vaping is probably not harmful. In the case of vaping, the fact that the ingredients have never been shown to be harmful when used "as prescribed," is what some would call pragmatism. Since all the ingredients in vaping have previously been proven to be safe, as evidenced by their designations under US Food Grades and/or approval by the FDA, the transposition rule of inference in classical logic is to conclude that vaping is harmless, or at least as harmless as the FDA thinks the ingredients are. In other words, if vaping ingredients have been used safely without negative effect, the absence of a negative effect in vaping these ingredients thus far, IS EVIDENCE of the absence of a negative cause. Think Occam's Razor, or simplicity over complexity.

These arguments ignore the fact, and difficulty, that some true things may never be proven, and some false things may never be disproved with absolute certainty. The phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" can be used to further the ignorance fallacy, "the harmlessness of vaping has never been absolutely proven and is therefore certainly false." Most often it is directed at any conclusion derived from null results in an experiment or from the non-detection of something in that experiment. In other words, where one researcher may say their experiment suggests evidence of absence of harm with and/or from vaping, another researcher (with an agenda?) might argue that the experiment failed to detect the harmfulness with and/or from vaping for other reasons, and argue that "we need more experiments and more science to prove it conclusively." In othe words, our current state of affairs.

It is a well-known fallacy in these types of discussions to draw conclusions based precisely on ignorance, as in this case about potential unknown future harm from vaping, since this does not satisfactorily address, while it simultaneously ignores, the issues of burden of proof. But null results are not ignorance and can be used as evidence to achieve a given burden of proof. In othe words, again, the fact that we have not found harm in vaping, thus far, IS EVIDENCE THAT VAPING MAY BE HARMLESS (relatively so), and NOT evidence that it "might" be harmful. This isn't a matter of conjecture or perspective, it's a matter of fact using responsible thinking and reasoning. The counter argument is, "Pigs might be able to fly, we just haven't detected it yet, after many efforts to do so." This is what we are up against, i.e., a clear agenda from the ANTZ.

Again, the fact that we haven't found vaping harmful is comforting, not worrisome and troubling. Think about it.

Edit:

I need my coffee now...:vapor: :pop:
 
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Coastal Cowboy

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I always find these arguments that appeal to ignorance boring and remind me how to lose a debate contest back in the day. Appeals to ignorance, where ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary," as in that vaping may be proven some day to be harmful, is a fallacy in informal logic, or so how I was taught. It asserts, for example, that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false. This is a false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation, and therefore, insufficient information to prove the proposition to be either true or false. It also excludes the possibility that the information might remain unknown between true or false (certainly a likelihood in medicine), or that the proposition may be unknowable (certainly a probability in medicine). I remember in debate class, we used appeals to ignorance to try to shift the burden of proof to the other guy, i.e., "You can't say it's harmless just because it hasn't yet been proven to be harmful."

The reason this whole line of reasoning is fallacious, misleading and confusing is that while we may never find out if vaping is harmless (relatively so), you can still have good reasons for thinking that vaping is probably not harmful. In the case of vaping, the fact that the ingredients have never been shown to be harmful when used "as prescribed," is what some would call pragmatism. Since all the ingredients in vaping have previously been proven to be safe, as evidenced by their designations under US Food Grades and/or approval by the FDA, the transposition rule of inference in classical logic is to conclude that vaping is harmless, or at least as harmless as the FDA thinks the ingredients are. In other words, if vaping ingredients have been used safely without negative effect, the absence of a negative effect in vaping these ingredients thus far, IS EVIDENCE of the absence of a negative cause. Think Occam's Razor, or simplicity over complexity.

These arguments ignore the fact, and difficulty, that some true things may never be proven, and some false things may never be disproved with absolute certainty. The phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" can be used to further the ignorance fallacy, "the harmlessness of vaping has never been absolutely proven and is therefore certainly false." Most often it is directed at any conclusion derived from null results in an experiment or from the non-detection of something in that experiment. In other words, where one researcher may say their experiment suggests evidence of absence of harm with and/or from vaping, another researcher (with an agenda?) might argue that the experiment failed to detect the harmfulness with and/or from vaping for other reasons, and argue that "we need more experiments and more science to prove it conclusively." In othe words, our current state of affairs.

It is a well-known fallacy in these types of discussions to draw conclusions based precisely on ignorance, as in this case about potential unknown future harm from vaping, since this does not satisfactorily address, while it simultaneously ignores, the issues of burden of proof. But null results are not ignorance and can be used as evidence to achieve a given burden of proof. In othe words, again, the fact that we have not found harm in vaping, thus far, IS EVIDENCE THAT VAPING MAY BE HARMLESS (relatively so), and NOT evidence that it "might" be harmful. This isn't a matter of conjecture or perspective, it's a matter of fact using responsible thinking and reasoning. The counter argument is, "Pigs might be able to fly, we just haven't detected it yet, after many efforts to do so." This is what we are up against, i.e., a clear agenda from the ANTZ.

Again, the fact that we haven't found vaping harmful is comforting, not worrisome and troubling. Think about it.

Edit:

I need my coffee now...

Great Poast!
 

Borescoped

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I always find these arguments that appeal to ignorance boring and remind me how to lose a debate contest back in the day. Appeals to ignorance, where ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary," as in that vaping may be proven some day to be harmful, is a fallacy in informal logic, or so how I was taught. It asserts, for example, that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false. This is a false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation, and therefore, insufficient information to prove the proposition to be either true or false. It also excludes the possibility that the information might remain unknown between true or false (certainly a likelihood in medicine), or that the proposition may be unknowable (certainly a probability in medicine). I remember in debate class, we used appeals to ignorance to try to shift the burden of proof to the other guy, i.e., "You can't say it's harmless just because it hasn't yet been proven to be harmful."

The reason this whole line of reasoning is fallacious, misleading and confusing is that while we may never find out if vaping is harmless (relatively so), you can still have good reasons for thinking that vaping is probably not harmful. In the case of vaping, the fact that the ingredients have never been shown to be harmful when used "as prescribed," is what some would call pragmatism. Since all the ingredients in vaping have previously been proven to be safe, as evidenced by their designations under US Food Grades and/or approval by the FDA, the transposition rule of inference in classical logic is to conclude that vaping is harmless, or at least as harmless as the FDA thinks the ingredients are. In other words, if vaping ingredients have been used safely without negative effect, the absence of a negative effect in vaping these ingredients thus far, IS EVIDENCE of the absence of a negative cause. Think Occam's Razor, or simplicity over complexity.

These arguments ignore the fact, and difficulty, that some true things may never be proven, and some false things may never be disproved with absolute certainty. The phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" can be used to further the ignorance fallacy, "the harmlessness of vaping has never been absolutely proven and is therefore certainly false." Most often it is directed at any conclusion derived from null results in an experiment or from the non-detection of something in that experiment. In other words, where one researcher may say their experiment suggests evidence of absence of harm with and/or from vaping, another researcher (with an agenda?) might argue that the experiment failed to detect the harmfulness with and/or from vaping for other reasons, and argue that "we need more experiments and more science to prove it conclusively." In othe words, our current state of affairs.

It is a well-known fallacy in these types of discussions to draw conclusions based precisely on ignorance, as in this case about potential unknown future harm from vaping, since this does not satisfactorily address, while it simultaneously ignores, the issues of burden of proof. But null results are not ignorance and can be used as evidence to achieve a given burden of proof. In othe words, again, the fact that we have not found harm in vaping, thus far, IS EVIDENCE THAT VAPING MAY BE HARMLESS (relatively so), and NOT evidence that it "might" be harmful. This isn't a matter of conjecture or perspective, it's a matter of fact using responsible thinking and reasoning. The counter argument is, "Pigs might be able to fly, we just haven't detected it yet, after many efforts to do so." This is what we are up against, i.e., a clear agenda from the ANTZ.

Again, the fact that we haven't found vaping harmful is comforting, not worrisome and troubling. Think about it.

Edit:

I need my coffee now...:vapor: :pop:

This would be a great quote for a signature block, if it wasn't so long LOL.
 

Moogle

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Latest study = minimal health risk. Inhaling PG/VG vapor is not dangerous but there is no long term evidence one way or the other. A study in the '70's on lab rats and monkeys with prolonged exposure to high concentrations of PG vapor for months did not turn up anything. Nada, no cancer, nothing. The only thing it did was dry out skin on the monkey's faces. Did not affect the rats in any way at all.
 

szot

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Ask this question in 30 years....researchers may have a much more definitive proven valid answer..up to now , studies have varied based on their sponsors and affiliations...and as we all know, statistics can be twisted , turned , and used and presented in many ways which changes their appearance to others....in the meantime, vape on..we do know factually that analogs are a killer, so this is a new adventure, not 100% known, but an alternative to killer analogs..
 
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