How 'unsafe' can an E-cig possibly be?

[s10sdeville]

Well this is my first post but we all smoked something we new was bad and in a day were everythingvseems to be known to cause cancer what are you going to do ya know...all i know is that after only 2 weeks i can breathe soooo much better and am not hacking .... up all day every day...and as a little side note i was in my first car accident where my airbag went off yesterday and let me say that all the powdery smoke sh%t from that thing today i can barely swallow and have been hacking stuff up like nobodys business luckily my raspberry and dragon fruit juice taste great and kinda make my throat feel better lol....basically im saying everything is bad for you now a days supposidly but watever we all know that vaping us way better than regular cigs i dont really care about what is said ya know

 

[glowplug]

Yeah, I agree with all of your points totally. The thing is that the rest of world looks at the body as a complete system and doesn't differentiate that much about how substances get into the body (generally speaking). Other than the brain, most everything in the body can go anywhere else through the cardiovascular system anyway. In the West, though, we make a big deal about whether we ate something, or inhaled something, then make the assumption that the difference is going to have a major potential difference to the affect in the body. More and more, we are beginning to understand that these differences are minor. For example, whether you ingest arsnic or inhale it doesn't make that much difference. Toxins are bad any way they get into the body. Aluminum in anti-perspirant is linked to breast cancer, and was neither ingested nor inhaled, but still deadly toxic. Of course, there are differences, but I don't consider how a substance gets into the body to be that different. And really, whether we swallow a harmless substance, or absorb it through the mouth, throat and nasal passages, so what? So, I don't worry about method of delivery into the body as much as the delivery of what???? into the body, and don't really need to see more studies about it in order to make a decision today about what to do. And that is the real question, what to do? Should I vape or not? Asked and answered as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, asked and answered and quite well to my way of thinking. Yet, I must differ with you on the ingested/inhaled point. I really want to know what inhaling a somewhat viscous or oily vapor is doing to my lungs. Like I said, I am not going to stop. I just want to know. If there is a problem, then I might alter my supplements to include some herbal remedies. Our lungs do have a pretty fascinating and efficient way of exchanging gases. I don't want to "gum them up" so to speak. Yeah, I know, I know, I wasn't too damn worried about it when I was coating them with tar and reducing their elasticity to almost nil. I am a hypocrite I suppose, but this inquiring mind just wants to know. Cause, ya know, knowledge is power, right?

 

[BigBen2k]

Do we Really Know much about the Safety of Chronically Inhaling Something like Sucralose in the Dosage and Frequency that the Average Vapor using an e-Cigarette?

To some extent, yes.

Sucralose is a complex compound, so the effects may be far and wide. It's quite possible that something may have been overlooked. This is why you see more interest in "natural" ingredients; they are much simpler, and predictable.

Chronically using any substance exposes one to a more severe aspect of an unknown side-effect. Case in point; there's a story floating around about a person suffering from fluorine poisoning, from drinking ungodly amounts of tap water.

 

[BigBen2k]

Yes, asked and answered and quite well to my way of thinking. Yet, I must differ with you on the ingested/inhaled point. I really want to know what inhaling a somewhat viscous or oily vapor is doing to my lungs. Like I said, I am not going to stop. I just want to know. If there is a problem, then I might alter my supplements to include some herbal remedies. Our lungs do have a pretty fascinating and efficient way of exchanging gases. I don't want to "gum them up" so to speak. Yeah, I know, I know, I wasn't too damn worried about it when I was coating them with tar and reducing their elasticity to almost nil. I am a hypocrite I suppose, but this inquiring mind just wants to know. Cause, ya know, knowledge is power, right?

This is a perfectly legitimate position to have. I would encourage you to look up this information yourself; relying on heresay kind of defeats the purpose.

 

[glowplug]

Well this is my first post but we all smoked something we new was bad and in a day were everythingvseems to be known to cause cancer what are you going to do ya know...all i know is that after only 2 weeks i can breathe soooo much better and am not hacking .... up all day every day...and as a little side note i was in my first car accident where my airbag went off yesterday and let me say that all the powdery smoke sh%t from that thing today i can barely swallow and have been hacking stuff up like nobodys business luckily my raspberry and dragon fruit juice taste great and kinda make my throat feel better lol....basically im saying everything is bad for you now a days supposidly but watever we all know that vaping us way better than regular cigs i dont really care about what is said ya know

Thank God you quit smoking. At least the cilia are working a bit better and you can hack up all that crap from the air bag!

Yep. I agree. Vaping is better and this is not an attempt to negate that in any way. I just want more information than is available now and I think folks need to realize what they might be getting into by vaping. I do not want to scare anyone away. Far from it. I have personally set up about 4 people so far and referred several others. I share my "experience, strength and hope" as well as my concerns with all of them. They decide. Cool. Maybe I am just selfish, but I don't want to feel responsible for their health problems if we learn that vaping is deadly (bite your tongue, glowplug! I so love my vaping).

I am a vaping fool and a vaping advocate. Just not a blind, sheepeople vaping fool. I think I know what I am getting into but it never hurts to keep learning.
ymmv

 

[glowplug]

This is a perfectly legitimate position to have. I would encourage you to look up this information yourself; relying on heresay kind of defeats the purpose.

Been looking, but so far, research just isn't there or I can't find it. I am stepping down off my soap box. Just had to add my and concerns. As I said, it must not bother me too much. I am still here, still advocating for vaping and still putting out clouds of tasty vapor.

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Do we Really Know much about the Safety of Chronically Inhaling Something like Sucralose in the Dosage and Frequency that the Average Vapor using an e-Cigarette?

Don't recommend vaping, ingesting or using sucralose as sunscreen, or diacetyl and a few others for that matter. You're only going to be as safe as the ingredients you ingest/vape, right?

 

[BigBen2k]

Been looking, but so far, research just isn't there or I can't find it. I am stepping down off my soap box. Just had to add my and concerns. As I said, it must not bother me too much. I am still here, still advocating for vaping and still putting out clouds of tasty vapor.

Here's one for USP grade Propylene Glycol (from a reliable manufacturer):
http://www.dow.com/webapps/msds/ShowPDF.aspx?id=090003e88019d0a9
Note that in our case, PG is deliberately used as an irritant, to produce "Throat Hit".

 

[zoiDman]

Don't recommend vaping, ingesting or using sucralose as sunscreen, or diacetyl and a few others for that matter. You're only going to be as safe as the ingredients you ingest/vape, right?

This is True.

And there is some Concern about Sucralose breaking down into Carbon Dioxide, Carbon Monoxide and Small Amounts of Hydrogen Chloride at Relatively Low Temperatures.

And I think there are some Very Real Concerns about Repeatedly Inhaling Diacetyl.

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Yes, asked and answered and quite well to my way of thinking. Yet, I must differ with you on the ingested/inhaled point. I really want to know what inhaling a somewhat viscous or oily vapor is doing to my lungs. Like I said, I am not going to stop. I just want to know. If there is a problem, then I might alter my supplements to include some herbal remedies. Our lungs do have a pretty fascinating and efficient way of exchanging gases. I don't want to "gum them up" so to speak. Yeah, I know, I know, I wasn't too damn worried about it when I was coating them with tar and reducing their elasticity to almost nil. I am a hypocrite I suppose, but this inquiring mind just wants to know. Cause, ya know, knowledge is power, right?

We don't really disagree. Everything you ingest, in part, ends up in your lungs because of the gases. This is one of my points. The way I vape is to absorb into mouth, then inhale, and we do know that the bulk of the ingredients are absorbed in the mouth, nasal passages, etc. Now the issue of nutrients to protect your lungs is a different, and a far more important subject, from my point of view. Dr. Micozzi, former leader at NIH, has much detailed research on smoke and other compounds that make their way into the lungs. The body is pretty amazing at dealing with these issues to a point. Example, 10 analogs a day or less had no measureable affect on health compared with a non-smoker, the lone exception being a slight uptick in oral cancer. We now know that oral cancer is more commonly caused by HPV. In the same report in 1984 that found a dubious link to lung cancer and smoking, two cigars, or two pipes per day, for example showed slightly better overall health than a non-smoker. Micozzi postulates that the human organism adapted to smoke filled campfires thousands of years ago and does an amazing job of keeping us healthy. If you get a chance review his work, Marc Micozzi, as he was one of the first reviewers at the FDA to see the famous 1984 report, the largest health report in history to date, and it has some startling conclusions that reveal that all of the data and science is politically motivated. If smokers get lung cancer, for example, how come 90% of smokers don't get lung cancer? And, if smoking alone causes lung cancer, how come 1% of non-smokers get lung cancer? My point is that the perfect storm that causes catastrophic illness is now thought to include multiple triggers and not just too much PG or VG, for example.

Like everything else in health, too much of anything can be deadly. So, I'm not saying there's no affect, but factors such as how much, technique, frequency, ratio, etc. are important in this determination. I read your disclaimer and have done boatloads of research in this area in related fields (and not for vaping, per se), and if I felt like we were really doing harm, like combustion harm, I wouldn't vape. What would be the point? We're not in disagreement, but since all studies to date have not provided any negative results in this way, the original arguments all stand, i.e., better than smoking, few known risks, akin to caffeine, and two, if risks considered unacceptable, regardless of science, known or otherwise, don't vape. I maintain these premises. When will the studies be done? Who knows? And more importantly, by whom? But, again, if I were worried about it, as you may be, I wouldn't vape. Frankly, if you eat the standard American diet, the risks to your health have to be at least two orders of magnitude more dangerous than vaping. So, start vaping more, and eating less bread, et al. My two cents.

 

[BigBen2k]

Stability of the ingredients is good to know also. Usually listed.

Here's USP grade (and Kosher?!?) glycerin:
http://www.cargill.com/wcm/groups/public/@ccom/documents/document/iols-mdsd-usp-grade-kosher-gly.pdf
Again, deliberately used as an irritant. Very stable.

 

[BigBen2k]

Here's nicotine:
Pure Nicotine Material Safety Data Sheet
(from RTS vapes)
note; nicotine is toxic in large quantities, so don't panic reading it! It is a reminder that all juice makers should be testing their batches, for safety's sake.

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

This is True.

And there is some Concern about Sucralose breaking down into Carbon Dioxide, Carbon Monoxide and Small Amounts of Hydrogen Chloride at Relatively Low Temperatures.

And I think there are some Very Real Concerns about Repeatedly Inhaling Diacetyl.

You're right. Diacetyl is now a known carcinogen, at least in the lab, and now all the popcorn boxes advertise that they do not contain diacetyl (buttery flavored food additive). Interestingly enough, virtually all artificial sugars have, at one point or another, been on the military's chemical warfare agents list from as far back as WWII. I DIY and know why.

 

[StormFinch]

Yes, asked and answered and quite well to my way of thinking. Yet, I must differ with you on the ingested/inhaled point. I really want to know what inhaling a somewhat viscous or oily vapor is doing to my lungs. Like I said, I am not going to stop. I just want to know. If there is a problem, then I might alter my supplements to include some herbal remedies. Our lungs do have a pretty fascinating and efficient way of exchanging gases. I don't want to "gum them up" so to speak. Yeah, I know, I know, I wasn't too damn worried about it when I was coating them with tar and reducing their elasticity to almost nil. I am a hypocrite I suppose, but this inquiring mind just wants to know. Cause, ya know, knowledge is power, right?

All I can offer you is first hand experience. I smoked for 30 years, have been vaping for a little over 3 years, and 2 1/2 of that has been exclusively. I started out vaping like a freight train and still vape 3 ml or more of 70 pg/30 vg e-juice per day. In November of last year I had a battery of tests ran for pre-operative purposes, including a chest x-ray and blood oxygen levels. I then went under anesthesia for approximately 5 hours for a thyroidectomy on the 6th of December. My chest x-ray was completely clear, and I was pronounced healthy as a horse (the anesthesiologist's exact words) except for the autoimmune condition that necessitated the surgery. Just my opinion, but if there was going to be a problem with my lungs processing PG, VG and flavorings then something, even relatively minor, should have shown up after 3 years of regular inhalation of the stuff, either before or during surgery. So far, the only side effect I've noticed is that I haven't caught a cold or the flu in 3 years despite a weirded out immune system and no flu shots, (Flu shots throw my autoimmune reaction into overdrive.) and this is from someone who got an upper respiratory infection and then chronic bronchitis every winter like clockwork.

 

[glowplug]

We don't really disagree. Everything you ingest, in part, ends up in your lungs because of the gases. This is one of my points. The way I vape is to absorb into mouth, then inhale, and we do know that the bulk of the ingredients are absorbed in the mouth, nasal passages, etc. Now the issue of nutrients to protect your lungs is a different, and a far more important subject, from my point of view. Dr. Micozzi, former leader at NIH, has much detailed research on smoke and other compounds that make their way into the lungs. The body is pretty amazing at dealing with these issues to a point. Example, 10 analogs a day or less had no measureable affect on health compared with a non-smoker, the lone exception being a slight uptick in oral cancer. We now know that oral cancer is more commonly caused by HPV. In the same report in 1984 that found a dubious link to lung cancer and smoking, two cigars, or two pipes per day, for example showed slightly better overall health than a non-smoker. Micozzi postulates that the human organism adapted to smoke filled campfires thousands of years ago and does an amazing job of keeping us healthy. If you get a chance review his work, Marc Micozzi, as he was one of the first reviewers at the FDA to see the famous 1984 report, the largest health report in history to date, and it has some startling conclusions that reveal that all of the data and science is politically motivated. If smokers get lung cancer, for example, how come 90% of smokers don't get lung cancer? And, if smoking alone causes lung cancer, how come 1% of non-smokers get lung cancer? My point is that the perfect storm that causes catastrophic illness is now thought to include multiple triggers and not just too much PG or VG, for example.

Like everything else in health, too much of anything can be deadly. So, I'm not saying there's no affect, but factors such as how much, technique, frequency, ratio, etc. are important in this determination. I read your disclaimer and have done boatloads of research in this area in related fields (and not for vaping, per se), and if I felt like we were really doing harm, like combustion harm, I wouldn't vape. What would be the point? We're not in disagreement, but since all studies to date have not provided any negative results in this way, the original arguments all stand, i.e., better than smoking, few known risks, akin to caffeine, and two, if risks considered unacceptable, regardless of science, known or otherwise, don't vape. I maintain these premises. When will the studies be done? Who knows? And more importantly, by whom? But, again, if I were worried about it, as you may be, I wouldn't vape. Frankly, if you eat the standard American diet, the risks to your health have to be at least two orders of magnitude more dangerous than vaping. So, start vaping more, and eating less bread, et al. My two cents.

Thank you Bill. You reminded of a few things I had forgotten and you taught me a few new things. And I cannot, will not give up bread right now. The tomato plants are prolific right now and I cannot give up my Italian bread with fresh tomato. Nope. Life would not be worth living, IMHO. I look forward all year for these few weeks of the perfect tomato and fresh, crusty bread. Ate it for breakfast yesterday.

 

[glowplug]

All I can offer you is first hand experience. I smoked for 30 years, have been vaping for a little over 3 years, and 2 1/2 of that has been exclusively. I started out vaping like a freight train and still vape 3 ml or more of 70 pg/30 vg e-juice per day. In November of last year I had a battery of tests ran for pre-operative purposes, including a chest x-ray and blood oxygen levels. I then went under anesthesia for approximately 5 hours for a thyroidectomy on the 6th of December. My chest x-ray was completely clear, and I was pronounced healthy as a horse (the anesthesiologist's exact words) except for the autoimmune condition that necessitated the surgery. Just my opinion, but if there was going to be a problem with my lungs processing PG, VG and flavorings then something, even relatively minor, should have shown up after 3 years of regular inhalation of the stuff, either before or during surgery. So far, the only side effect I've noticed is that I haven't caught a cold or the flu in 3 years despite a weirded out immune system and no flu shots, (Flu shots throw my autoimmune reaction into overdrive.) and this is from someone who got an upper respiratory infection and then chronic bronchitis every winter like clockwork.

First, thanks for the information. That is a great testimonial to the positive effects of vaping and we are using the same pg/vg ratio basically.

Secondly, good for you! No colds or flu for three years is great. I think I overwhelmed my immune system working in the ER for several years and now I just don't seem to catch much of anything that goes around. Either that or God figures that having fibro and neuropathy is enough for one person and I am protected. Whatever. I do enjoy missing out on the flu and respiratory illnesses.

 

[glowplug]

You're right. Diacetyl is now a known carcinogen, at least in the lab, and now all the popcorn boxes advertise that they do not contain diacetyl (buttery flavored food additive). Interestingly enough, virtually all artificial sugars have, at one point or another, been on the military's chemical warfare agents list from as far back as WWII. I DIY and know why.

Is Stevia on that list or is it "safe"? I have done some research on vg. Lots of folks like it for a sweetener. It is helping a lot of diabetics. I can't believe I never heard of it before. I have two diabetics in the family and I am trying hard to avoid insulin myself. Apparently, vg is not as sweet but is helpful in cooking etc. It is so inexpensive that I hope it works well. Has little to no effect on serum glucose levels.

 

[szot]

The problem with long term studies is obvious. Our health, our life, our very survival is on the line right now. We do have long-term studies on smoking. There is a connection between smoking and lung cancer, that is not well understood. Some genuine reasoning is required at this point, if we are to make the best decision possible for ourselves, our health, our families, our very lives. Absent much significant negative information regarding vaping available today, and the ever-increasing research and emerging studies on vaping suggesting its relative harmlessness (akin to caffeine), there is only one logical conclusion, i.e., quit smoking, possibly with the help of vaping, and immediately increase your survival chances.

How vaping may affect us in 30 years is pretty irrelevant since smoking may kill us in five years.

I totally DISAGREE...30 years of vaping research studies will allow our grands to make a knowledgeable decision about the safety or dangers vaping or not..

 

[BigBen2k]

I totally DISAGREE...30 years of vaping will allow our grands to make a knowledgeable decision about the safety or dangers vaping or not..

I think Bill was referring to an individual vaping for a 30 year duration.

 

[Syl_Az]

You know, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that it's better to be hit by a small rock, than a big rock. Vaping IS LESS HARMFUL THAN SMOKING CIGARETTES. There, I said it. If you disagree, you prove it.

Lol, Gotta love it. That could have been my original post. That is what I was getting at! At best, vaping will eliminate the tar and other carcinogens inhaled in cigarettes. At worst, I get to choose my poison.