How 'unsafe' can an E-cig possibly be?

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UnclePsyko

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I always find these arguments that appeal to ignorance boring and remind me how to lose a debate contest back in the day. Appeals to ignorance, where ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary," as in that vaping may be proven some day to be harmful, is a fallacy in informal logic, or so how I was taught. It asserts, for example, that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false. This is a false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation, and therefore, insufficient information to prove the proposition to be either true or false. It also excludes the possibility that the information might remain unknown between true or false (certainly a likelihood in medicine), or that the proposition may be unknowable (certainly a probability in medicine). I remember in debate class, we used appeals to ignorance to try to shift the burden of proof to the other guy, i.e., "You can't say it's harmless just because it hasn't yet been proven to be harmful."

The reason this whole line of reasoning is fallacious, misleading and confusing is that while we may never find out if vaping is harmless (relatively so), you can still have good reasons for thinking that vaping is probably not harmful. In the case of vaping, the fact that the ingredients have never been shown to be harmful when used "as prescribed," is what some would call pragmatism. Since all the ingredients in vaping have previously been proven to be safe, as evidenced by their designations under US Food Grades and/or approval by the FDA, the transposition rule of inference in classical logic is to conclude that vaping is harmless, or at least as harmless as the FDA thinks the ingredients are. In other words, if vaping ingredients have been used safely without negative effect, the absence of a negative effect in vaping these ingredients thus far, IS EVIDENCE of the absence of a negative cause. Think Occam's Razor, or simplicity over complexity.

These arguments ignore the fact, and difficulty, that some true things may never be proven, and some false things may never be disproved with absolute certainty. The phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" can be used to further the ignorance fallacy, "the harmlessness of vaping has never been absolutely proven and is therefore certainly false." Most often it is directed at any conclusion derived from null results in an experiment or from the non-detection of something in that experiment. In other words, where one researcher may say their experiment suggests evidence of absence of harm with and/or from vaping, another researcher (with an agenda?) might argue that the experiment failed to detect the harmfulness with and/or from vaping for other reasons, and argue that "we need more experiments and more science to prove it conclusively." In othe words, our current state of affairs.

It is a well-known fallacy in these types of discussions to draw conclusions based precisely on ignorance, as in this case about potential unknown future harm from vaping, since this does not satisfactorily address, while it simultaneously ignores, the issues of burden of proof. But null results are not ignorance and can be used as evidence to achieve a given burden of proof. In othe words, again, the fact that we have not found harm in vaping, thus far, IS EVIDENCE THAT VAPING MAY BE HARMLESS (relatively so), and NOT evidence that it "might" be harmful. This isn't a matter of conjecture or perspective, it's a matter of fact using responsible thinking and reasoning. The counter argument is, "Pigs might be able to fly, we just haven't detected it yet, after many efforts to do so." This is what we are up against, i.e., a clear agenda from the ANTZ.

Again, the fact that we haven't found vaping harmful is comforting, not worrisome and troubling. Think about it.

Edit:

I need my coffee now...:vapor: :pop:

WOW! I'd be honored to buy you that cup of coffee! I for one sleep better at night knowing you're on our side! OUTSTANDING!

p.s... we need an "Applause" smiley for this.
 
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Bill's Magic Vapor

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The problem with long term studies is obvious. Our health, our life, our very survival is on the line right now. We do have long-term studies on smoking. There is a connection between smoking and lung cancer, that is not well understood. Some genuine reasoning is required at this point, if we are to make the best decision possible for ourselves, our health, our families, our very lives. Absent much significant negative information regarding vaping available today, and the ever-increasing research and emerging studies on vaping suggesting its relative harmlessness (akin to caffeine), there is only one logical conclusion, i.e., quit smoking, possibly with the help of vaping, and immediately increase your survival chances.

How vaping may affect us in 30 years is pretty irrelevant since smoking may kill us in five years. The good news, as has been espoused over and over in this thread, is that vaping is harmless from almost everything that is currently known about the subject, relatively speaking. How there can be any question about vaping at this point, as a replacement or substitution for smoking, with its known health risks is perplexing. We also know, with near certainty, based on mountains of anecdotal evidence, that the healing of the body begins almost immediately with vaping and smoking cessation. The evidence that vaping is less harmful than smoking is virtually indisputable and unassailable, and a do-less-harm strategy to beat smoking has been shown to be far more successful, than the "quit or die" programs of the past.

If after careful consideration of all known facts, one is till worried about vaping, then quit smoking and don't vape. It is that simple. Since 30% of all "cures" is placebo anyway, what you believe works for you has more to do with your health than almost anything else you can do. If you think vaping is working, then it probably is. If you think vaping is too large a risk, then it probably is. You just have to get off the fence, pull up the "big boy" pants and get on with it, one way or another. If only we had taken this level of scrutiny that we apply to vaping before we started smoking, none of us would even be facing these questions. If the choice is between vaping and smoking....vaping. If the choice is between vaping and not vaping....not vaping. Folks, this ain't rocket surgery. Wake up!
 

zoiDman

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The Safety of e-Cigarettes is Kinda Hard to Quantify.

I know some People who use 6mg Unflavored e-Liquids at 6 watts and they take maybe 20~30 Hits a Day.

I know other people who Chain Vape Heavily Flavored Sickly Sweet 36mg Neon Green Colored "Juice" 24-7 at 20 Watts.

So when people talk about e-Cigarettes and what Is or Isn't safe, should they be Talking/Asking more about e-Liquids?
 

UnclePsyko

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The Safety of e-Cigarettes is Kinda Hard to Quantify.

I know some People who use 6mg Unflavored e-Liquids at 6 watts and they take maybe 20~30 Hits a Day.

I know other people who Chain Vape Heavily Flavored Sickly Sweet 36mg Neon Green Colored "Juice" 24-7 at 20 Watts.

So when people talk about e-Cigarettes and what Is or Isn't safe, should they be Talking/Asking more about e-Liquids?

Perhaps... although when most folks new to the game ask this question, such as the OP, it is inevitably whether the actions of vaping in itself could have hidden dangers and/or if the act of vaping could have any negative impacts down the road that are not yet known... which of course, there's your answer... unknown. Most experienced vapers know of the inherent dangers of mishandling Liquid Nicotine and overdose risks.
Suspiciously, the OP seems to have disappeared. Doesn't seem too concerned.
 

Coastal Cowboy

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Perhaps... although when most folks new to the game ask this question, such as the OP, it is inevitably whether the actions of vaping in itself could have hidden dangers and/or if the act of vaping could have any negative impacts down the road that are not yet known... which of course, there's your answer... unknown. Most experienced vapers know of the inherent dangers of mishandling Liquid Nicotine and overdose risks.
Suspiciously, the OP seems to have disappeared. Doesn't seem too concerned.

Liked and quoted for the Arrogant ....... avatar.

What an excellent brew.
 

DC2

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Liked and quoted for the Arrogant ....... avatar.

What an excellent brew.
My wife's favorite beer is Stone Ruination.
My favorite is Stone Smoked Porter.

My wife is more hardcore than I am.
:)

We live 20 minutes from the Stone Brewery, and their food is almost as good as their beer.
We have not yet figured out if this is heaven, or if this is hell.
 

evan le'garde

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I exercise everyday by cycling on the roads. Don't know if any of you guys cycle but if you do then you'd know exactly how dangerous it is. Sometimes a truck might miss me by a matter of inches, and sometimes cars just cut me up because they hate cyclists. It used to scare the hell out of me when a giant truck would whoosh past me missing me by inches. I got used to it.

Using an e cig is the least of my worries.:unsure:
 

UnclePsyko

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I exercise everyday by cycling on the roads. Don't know if any of you guys cycle but if you do then you'd know exactly how dangerous it is. Sometimes a truck might miss me by a matter of inches, and sometimes cars just cut me up because they hate cyclists. It used to scare the hell out of me when a giant truck would whoosh past me missing me by inches. I got used to it.

Using an e cig is the least of my worries.:unsure:

I go the Mtn. Bike route... Too dangerous out there on the roads! Vape ON!
 

BigBen2k

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Now I want to know what's in Bill's coffee; great posts!

Too many people apply polarized thinking, and categorize things as good or bad; thinking otherwise is too complicated! There is often a grey area...

I can understand people remaining doubtful, if there's a lack of proper scientific evidence, but popular testimony does have some weight, albeit not as much.

I'm trained in science and the scientific method. The toughest part of drafting a lab report, was listing the sources of error, so that a proper conclusion can be drawn. That part has always taken me more than half the time of writing my reports, but my professors commended me for it; I always had at least one item that no one else had thought about.

Education; it does the body good!
 

Bill's Magic Vapor

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Now I want to know what's in Bill's coffee; great posts!

Too many people apply polarized thinking, and categorize things as good or bad; thinking otherwise is too complicated! There is often a grey area...

I can understand people remaining doubtful, if there's a lack of proper scientific evidence, but popular testimony does have some weight, albeit not as much.

I'm trained in science and the scientific method. The toughest part of drafting a lab report, was listing the sources of error, so that a proper conclusion can be drawn. That part has always taken me more than half the time of writing my reports, but my professors commended me for it; I always had at least one item that no one else had thought about.

Education; it does the body good!

Thanks, picking posts to respond to now by interest level. Can only "fix" so many leaking clearos without losing some sanity. Can't comment here on the coffee, but it was nice. Couldn't agree more about the scientific background and writing. Still in the game. Smaller studies and more anecdotal consideration would help the world considerably, and we are moving in that direction, again, finally, thankfully, and seeing a lot more, even with decent credibility and support from peers. Other than Big Pharma, who can afford the double blind clinical trials to get FDA approval, largely a political consideration, now anyway? More than half the new stuff doesn't beat placebo, other than by manipulated statistics, or is a drug looking for a cause to treat, trumpeted as a new breakthrough therapy on a previously unknown condition, like aging. Hard not to be jaded, sometimes, I suppose.

The whole contempt before examination thing, gets me riled, under my skin, and I'll blow a gasket/rant/post now and then. Even though there's little to no evidence of negatives associated with vaping to date, the fact that someone like the FDA hasn't "blessed" it as an NRT (and maybe never will), as if that means much since about 1980 anyway, let alone these days, causes many new vapers pause, and drives me up the wall. Few mention the thousands of documented issues with FDA approved Chantix, but choose, instead, to focus on vaping, in a dubious light, in complete contradiction to the approach taken toward smoking by most smokers. The hypocrisy literally burns, at times. My microwave is more dangerous. Thanks for asking, LOL!
 
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glowplug

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I always find these arguments that appeal to ignorance boring and remind me how to lose a debate contest back in the day. Appeals to ignorance, where ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary," as in that vaping may be proven some day to be harmful, is a fallacy in informal logic, or so how I was taught. ....

.... This isn't a matter of conjecture or perspective, it's a matter of fact using responsible thinking and reasoning. The counter argument is, "Pigs might be able to fly, we just haven't detected it yet, after many efforts to do so." This is what we are up against, i.e., a clear agenda from the ANTZ.

Again, the fact that we haven't found vaping harmful is comforting, not worrisome and troubling. Think about it.

Edit:

I need my coffee now...:vapor: :pop:

Bill, I edited for length and deleted most of your wonderful post. Just an FYI for those reading this, the original post is in its entirety at post #55.

First, as always, I love your logical approach and respect your awesome mind!

Secondly, I still have my original concern/question about vaping. My disclaimer: I vape, plan to continue vaping if at all possible and I am only marginally concerned by this concern. I hope my eyes are wide open regarding this issue. I smoked although I knew it was harmful. I will never sue a tobacco company for lung cancer, kidney cancer, heart disease or COPD. I was addicted, I smoked, I knew it was very harmful. I could have stopped if I had really forced the issue. I don't know how, I tried so many ways, but I could have stopped. I am a recovering alcoholic so I know addictions can be kicked. (as an aside, it is really easy to avoid alcohol. I don't go into bars or liquor stores. I don't frequent activities where folks are getting drunk. It is not as easy to avoid cigarettes. The temptation is more prevalent and more difficult to resist, for me at least).

So, if the constituents of e liquid are proven to be safe, isn't that safety proven only for the ingested form? We are vaping it. Inhaling it into our lungs. I am not aware of studies regarding the effects of vaping these ingredients. Smoke machines have been cited but that is much different than vaping daily and frequently.

In addition, is there much change to the chemical make up when this stuff is heated to vaporization? I think there is more research on this point. My eyes have crossed for reading all the research I have found over the past few months.

My point: There isn't much to demonstrate the safety of vaping pg and vg or flavorings. We all know it is "safer". How could it not be? Common sense tells us that removing all chemicals of combustion and additives increases safety. We know it is safe to ingest vg. Many use it as an alternative sweetener in foods and cooking. We know it is relatively safe (if we believe Big Pharma) to inhale aerosol pg since it is used in asthma medications. That is not pg vapor from heating. But these medications are not used frequently the way most of us vape. At least I hope not! Want to see the symptoms of amphetamine psychosis? Look at someone who abuses their inhaler. Not pretty, but certainly entertaining. :blush:

Please don't get me wrong. I am not condoning the ANTZ spin on existing research. I think we need to be very active advocating for our right to vape and right to avoid nannyism regulation from government and Big Tobacco. I support CASAA and suggest everyone do so. Our right to vape really is at risk. It hits pocket books and that is a huge motivation for big tobacco and they have the money to lobby for the demise to our vaping freedom as we know it. I do not want to see small businesses that produce quality liquids regulated out of existence so the only liquids available are by Phillip Morris and the like...

Just asking and just pointing out what I believe to be the potential issues with vaping. That said, I need to shut up and refill my PT2. I have some new juice that is so darn tasty!:p
 

glowplug

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If we're starting a betting pool, my money goes on the first PV related death being somebody's kid drinking a whole bottle of juice.

As far as the safety of ecigs, we just don't know. It may be that after 20 years of inhaling PG/VG daily, the human body shuts down and vapers around the World will fall over in their tracks. That said, there's no proof at this point that there's any real negative consequence. Smoking, on the other hand, we do have proof of. I've always thought of it this way: When you're a smoker, you're in a race - to see whether the smoking kills you or something else beats it to the punch.

Everyone I know who smoked enough to develop the smoker's cough or other symptoms of the habit and then switched to PVs claims to feel better (and usually claim to have tried countless other methods of quitting and failed). At this point, that being the only evidence available, that's what I'm going by. Even if I do keel over in 20 years from vaping, the time between now and then won't be spent with every laugh trailing off into a coughing fit, with every 15 minute walk requiring a break halfway to pant enough oxygen back into my system, and most importantly, won't have women not wanting to kiss me because I stink.

If my body shuts down in 20 years and I keel over dead, I would still prefer that end to gasping for air from lung cancer or COPD. So there you ANTZ. Take that and put it in you pipe and smoke it...oh wait....ANTZ don't smoke, right?
 

BigBen2k

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The "safety" of the individual ingredients is usually pretty thorough; it will include inhaling it in their evaporated state, but usually only at or near room temperature. There may be some extended tests of high concentrations at an evaporated state.

We extract this to be safe for e-cigs, because the temperature isn't high enough to oxidize (i.e. burn) these individual ingredients, and so, the heat only serves to accelerate the evaporation. Any oxidation would completely change the nature of the ingredient.

What we don't know, is how any of these ingredients may interact with each other, but for our juices, I see nothing to warrant any concern. It's not as if we're mixing vinegar and baking soda here.:D
 

Bill's Magic Vapor

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Bill, I edited for length and deleted most of your wonderful post. Just an FYI for those reading this, the original post is in its entirety at post #55.

First, as always, I love your logical approach and respect your awesome mind!

Secondly, I still have my original concern/question about vaping. My disclaimer: I vape, plan to continue vaping if at all possible and I am only marginally concerned by this concern. I hope my eyes are wide open regarding this issue. I smoked although I knew it was harmful. I will never sue a tobacco company for lung cancer, kidney cancer, heart disease or COPD. I was addicted, I smoked, I knew it was very harmful. I could have stopped if I had really forced the issue. I don't know how, I tried so many ways, but I could have stopped. I am a recovering alcoholic so I know addictions can be kicked. (as an aside, it is really easy to avoid alcohol. I don't go into bars or liquor stores. I don't frequent activities where folks are getting drunk. It is not as easy to avoid cigarettes. The temptation is more prevalent and more difficult to resist, for me at least).

So, if the constituents of e liquid are proven to be safe, isn't that safety proven only for the ingested form? We are vaping it. Inhaling it into our lungs. I am not aware of studies regarding the effects of vaping these ingredients. Smoke machines have been cited but that is much different than vaping daily and frequently.

In addition, is there much change to the chemical make up when this stuff is heated to vaporization? I think there is more research on this point. My eyes have crossed for reading all the research I have found over the past few months.

My point: There isn't much to demonstrate the safety of vaping pg and vg or flavorings. We all know it is "safer". How could it not be? Common sense tells us that removing all chemicals of combustion and additives increases safety. We know it is safe to ingest vg. Many use it as an alternative sweetener in foods and cooking. We know it is relatively safe (if we believe Big Pharma) to inhale aerosol pg since it is used in asthma medications. That is not pg vapor from heating. But these medications are not used frequently the way most of us vape. At least I hope not! Want to see the symptoms of amphetamine psychosis? Look at someone who abuses their inhaler. Not pretty, but certainly entertaining. :blush:

Please don't get me wrong. I am not condoning the ANTZ spin on existing research. I think we need to be very active advocating for our right to vape and right to avoid nannyism regulation from government and Big Tobacco. I support CASAA and suggest everyone do so. Our right to vape really is at risk. It hits pocket books and that is a huge motivation for big tobacco and they have the money to lobby for the demise to our vaping freedom as we know it. I do not want to see small businesses that produce quality liquids regulated out of existence so the only liquids available are by Phillip Morris and the like...

Just asking and just pointing out what I believe to be the potential issues with vaping. That said, I need to shut up and refill my PT2. I have some new juice that is so darn tasty!:p

Yeah, I agree with all of your points totally. The thing is that the rest of world looks at the body as a complete system and doesn't differentiate that much about how substances get into the body (generally speaking). Other than the brain, most everything in the body can go anywhere else through the cardiovascular system anyway. In the West, though, we make a big deal about whether we ate something, or inhaled something, then make the assumption that the difference is going to have a major potential difference to the affect in the body. More and more, we are beginning to understand that these differences are minor. For example, whether you ingest arsnic or inhale it doesn't make that much difference. Toxins are bad any way they get into the body. Aluminum in anti-perspirant is linked to breast cancer, and was neither ingested nor inhaled, but still deadly toxic. Of course, there are differences, but I don't consider how a substance gets into the body to be that different. And really, whether we swallow a harmless substance, or absorb it through the mouth, throat and nasal passages, so what? So, I don't worry about method of delivery into the body as much as the delivery of what???? into the body, and don't really need to see more studies about it in order to make a decision today about what to do. And that is the real question, what to do? Should I vape or not? Asked and answered as far as I'm concerned.
 

zoiDman

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The "safety" of the individual ingredients is usually pretty thorough; it will include inhaling it in their evaporated state, but usually only at or near room temperature. There may be some extended tests of high concentrations at an evaporated state.

...

Do we Really Know much about the Safety of Chronically Inhaling Something like Sucralose in the Dosage and Frequency that the Average Vapor using an e-Cigarette?
 
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