Indoor vaping in public spaces - not a battle worth fighting

[Myk]

Don't have time to read all this right now.

Make no mistake, banning vaping in public places is as good as banning vaping. You say you're relatively new but living in Indiana I'm amazed you already haven't discovered that these little coils don't heat so well in sub zero weather.
If I have to go outside to hang out with a smoker below freezing so my AGA-T2 will either not produce vapor or it will burn I'll be out there about once before I'm bumming a cigarette. I think that is worth fighting for.
If I lose it will be the ANTZ who are responsible for this vaper going back to being a smoker even more so than Big Tobacco was responsible in their lost lawsuits.

 

[Lewtz]

I bought my PV for a couple reasons. 1) of which was to Vape inside my house as it's not ok to do with normal cigs. Try selling a house with cig smoke in it... damn near impossible.

But as far as public vaping goes, I act just like I did with cigs. Outside, away from the general public. I just feel it is the decent thing to do. That's just how I Vape.

 

[ZeroOhms]

I was sitting in a patio of coffee shop last week with my mod on the table. I wasn't planning on vaping but pulled it out of the pocket because it was uncomfortable. Someone walking by said "nice mod". Same person stood right next to the door and proceed to vape. White thick vapor cloud was floating across the entire patio and everyone in the patio just froze and stared. :face palm:
Our society is just coming out of "war" against the second hand smoke and people are still paranoid about floating cloud near them. Stunt like this isn't helping the people in the frontline fighting.

Vaping is stuck between second-hand smoke and legalizing .......... It will take years and possibly decades to undo the damages that cigarette has done to our society. Let's be patient, aware, courteous, and civil. Support the people in frontline. And most importantly, use common sense.

 

[Free6413]

Seeing the big cloud freaks most people out! The movement of banning smoking in public has created a generation of people that have no idea that there is a difference. Heck, I can remember when you could smoke in a grocery store and the hospitals. It will take some time and lots of education to enlighten the population that what we are taking not only our own health into consideration but theirs as well. Until that time comes about, the cloud they see is, in their mind, smoke and there will be no changing it. The key word is educating the public. It will take time and refuting the mainstream media and their witch hunt! Just my

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

H.P. Lovecraft once said that fear is the most powerful human emotion, and that fear of the unknown is the most potent variety of fear.

He's right.

Although I'm a relative newbie to vaping, I've essentially quit analog ciggies (yeah, I'll have a puff every now and then - just to remind myself why I stopped!). But before I dived in, I spent a lot of time Googling major news outlets' articles, reading posts on forums like this, and watching the zillions of YouTube vids on vaping. (Which didn't stop me from making the dumb mistake of buying the JoyeTech 510T unit - *sigh*.)

What I've noticed is that a lot of newbie vapers (along w/ plenty of experienced ones) seem to think that we should have the right to vape indoors in public spaces. Many still do, where it's legal.

In theory, that might be a scientifically reasonable point of view (especially with 0% e-juice). But I don't think it's a battle worth fighting right now - for two reasons.

1) We have too many other fish to fry. For example, the right to vape outdoors in public parks, college campuses (etc.), the right to buy e-juice and supplies interstate, not to mention the right to vape, period. (In fact, the more evidence that arises about the relative harmlessness of vaping, the louder the hue and cry becomes to ban vaping - in order to protect minors and/or because vaping is allegedly a "gateway" to tobacco burning.)

Do you want to be turned down for a job (or fired) because you vape? That's already happening - employers who refuse to hire analog smokers are also refusing to hire vapers. How about paying the same health insurance rates as analog smokers (that's also already the case).

You can probably forget about your fun flavors like custard or blueberry - these will likely go the way of flavored analog cigarettes. (Banned to protect children.)

Even worse: look out for the massive Federal, state, and local taxes that are going to clobber us in a few years, once more and more people like me are no longer paying taxes on analog ciggies. Imagine paying the same amount of taxes per ml. of e-juice as an analog smoker pays on a pack! (Once more people like me stop smoking analog ciggies, that missing revenue is going to have to come from somewhere, right?) And by the way, once states start taxing e-liquid, you won't be able to buy it off the internet any more (same thing happened with analog cigarettes).

Are all of these things less important as any supposed "right" to vape indoors? (Not in my book.)

2) At the end of the day, the U.S. is a democracy in the sense that that the majority usually gets what it wants. And it's a whole lot harder for non-smoker/non-vapers to become enlightened, than it is for them to cheer on the ignorant journalists, politicians, and health professionals who are going to continue to make vapers' lives miserable in every way that they possibly can (through taxation, regulation, biased studies, and just plain old fear-mongering).

They say "honesty is the best policy," but most folks in a position of shaping public opinion would rather advance their careers by taking the easy way out. Fear beats facts, ninety-nine times out of a hundred, and a lie gets all the way around the world while the truth is still putting on its boots. (Just ask any Muslim who lived in the US shortly after 9/11. Or ask any gay schoolteacher who has been teaching for more than a couple of decades.)

So please - don't vape indoors in a public space (even if it's legal where you live). And don't vape indoors in a private area (even if it's your own home and you have non-smoking/non-vaping guests, or you have non-smoking/non-vaping passengers in your own car).

For every person whom you educate, you're going to scare the daylights out of two more, thus increasing public support for even more horrendous anti-vaping rhetoric, journalism, taxation, regulation, and legislation.

Happy vapin'

--roger

By the way, John F. Kennedy said, "Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate," in his inaugural address January 20, 1961.

 

[Hoosier]

A camel gets into a tent, not all at once, but in increments.

First is the nose. The nose in our case is allowing vapor to be legislated as smoke.

Quite a bit like the Marion County City Council's inclusion of vaping with the no-smoking laws.

Now we see a bill being introduced to include vaping equipment to be included in the definition of tobacco for tax purposes.

We lost when we went in front of the Marion County City Council, but we didn't lose when we went to South Bend, Lawrance, Beech Grove, and others. If you give ground, it will be taken. The Hoosier Vapers club was there and we did not give ground willingly or say we should pick another battle.

If you allow the camel's nose into the tent, you will soon have a whole camel in your tent.

I live in a representative republic. The vast majority of citizens, and even voters, doesn't care one way or another about vaping. The voters do not bring legislation to representatives, it is the groups who are well funded who write the proposals and convince a representative that they can spin the new restriction as a great thing and garner more voters. The proposal has the author's name changed and it is introduced in committee. Smoke Free Indiana wrote the law that the Marion County City Council passed and it was a "done deal" before it ever went up for a vote. If you contact representatives and tell them they lose your vote and an organizations's votes if they support these kinds of things, they stop supporting them. You have to stop the nose before you have a whole camel in your tent.

How do you educate the public that vaping is different than smoking when you give ground and agree to treat your vapor like smoke? You've already conceded that ground and they are coming on all fronts, local, county, state, national, and regulatory authorities. Picking, cherry picking, your battles just means you are choosing to lose the ones you don't pick. And when you lose one, it gives the aggressor's more to use against you later.

Before I ever thought of vaping or knew of it's existence, I freaked people out. By doing nothing more than standing alone I've heard mothers cry out and gather their children to move them quickly away from me. I've seen business men use their briefcases to shield themselves from my glance. I've been told by complete strangers that I shouldn't walk towards people and give a friendly greeting because I "look like an axe murderer". I vape in public and don't get any of that. In fact, for whatever reason, people of the type that used to be freaked out by me will actually approach and ask me about vaping. (Usually along the lines of, "Is that one of those fake cigarette things?")

I am glad you are willing to fight though. Hopefully you join one of the vaping organizations and lend a hand. Even if you pick which battle you wish to be in, being there for some of them is always welcome.

 

[HighEnergyProton]

It seems that living in Europe has it's advantages here (better weather for a start!) But I can basically vape anywhere that I go. If I'm in a restaurant the first thing I do is ask the waiter if I can vape, I have never got a no. The people sitting at tables next to me either ask me what I'm smoking, or ask the waiter, once it is known that it is a VP everyone is happy. Even on trains and buses I haven't had any issues. If I get any odd looks I put my VP in my pocket and wait until my meal/train ride is over. It's actually easier for me to go without vaping for a few hours than it was to go without an analog. I have had a lot of questions asking about it, and explain what it is and direct people where they could buy a starting unit. People here are more curious about it (especially the smokers) than offended by it. Ireland has quite a big vaping population, as does Germany. Our laws are directed at minors buying the products (which is amazing). England seems to be getting sticky about it though, but there are petitions, etc about the benefits. British parliament are most worried about the minor factor too, and at the same time have very graphic anti smoking campaigns on telly and all the packaging of analogs have grotesque images of tumors and other smoking related health risks (education is key, good on them!)

 

[Rossum]

At the end of the day, the U.S. is a democracy in the sense that that the majority usually gets what it wants.

The US is supposed to be a constitutional republic, not a democracy. It was designed that way specifically so that a majority would not be able to impose their arbitrary whims on the rest of us. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be working as designed anymore.

So please - don't vape indoors in a public space (even if it's legal where you live). And don't vape indoors in a private area (even if it's your own home and you have non-smoking/non-vaping guests, or you have non-smoking/non-vaping passengers in your own car).

You're joking, right?

Sorry, Roger, but it's MY house and MY car. If someone finds my vape offensive in either of those places, they are free to leave, or free to get out and find an alternate means of transportation.

 

[MrsPressley]

Alright, Ill start by saying I live in a small town like May-berry from Andy Griffith and I vape everywhere excluding my son's school of course. I've vaped in Walmart, our local mall, gas stations etc. Places I wont vape would be the hospital, or dental offices (places like that). No one has ever said anything to me or asked me to stop but if they did I would politely put my vape away or go outside. I dont have an issue following the rules but I am not really around anyone when I do it in public. My mother is the same way, she vapes in public too and no one has ever said anything negative to her about it. I guess there will be restrictions one day but for now Ill vape where I please until someone has a problem with it.

 

[AndriaD]

I agree, we have much bigger fish to fry at this point.

Vaping in public-if the lawmakers say we can't do it....I guess I don't really care since it's been years since we've been allowed to smoke indoors in public places. I don't really care about that.


But I will vape in my own house. And in my own car. Regardless of what kind of guests/passengers I have. But I rarely have guests, and the ones I would welcome to my home know I vape. In fact, I used to smoke cigs in my house before I quit. It's MY home. I own it. I pay for it.

Just be courteous. Don't blow clouds in the faces of others. If you want to vape in a public place (bar, etc), ask permission before doing so. Common courtesy.

You're so right -- I smoke in our vehicle (much to my husband's chagrin, but he knows better than to object -- he's been married for 26 yrs after all ). I *don't* smoke in our home, because I don't want our home to smell like an ashtray. I started taking my cigarettes outside when our son was 9 yrs old, because he was missing so much school due to bronchitis -- I always thought all the hooey over 2nd hand smoke was just that, hooey, but to a child, it really is a danger -- when I stopped smoking around him, he started having almost-perfect attendance. However once I start vaping (ordering my starter kit Friday!), I plan to do it in my house -- as you said, it's my own home, and if anyone here doesn't like it, well, they know where the door is. The son is grown now, and he smokes off and on, and I'm hoping that he'll benefit from my example and choose vaping instead of poisonous smoke. One of my PRIMARY reasons for my interest in switching to e-cigs is so that I don't have to go outdoors! I'm tired of freezing in the winter and roasting in the summer!!

But all these idiots who are "afraid" of it because it "looks like smoking"?? Well, you know, the world is just FULL of idiots and various other sub-normals. We just have to ignore them and hope they go away. The e-cig I'm planning to get is the JoyeTech eRoll, in the silver version -- so if some Smoke Nazi says something to me like "you can't do that here!" I'll just say "Seen a lot of silver cigarettes with blue fire, have you?" Then I'll touch the blue tip to my skin just to PROVE to the brain-dead idiot that it's NOT ACTUALLY ON FIRE!

I'm fed up with idiots and not going to take it anymore!
Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Places I wont vape would be the hospital, or dental offices (places like that).

You can do it there too, if you just go into the bathroom. Who's gonna know?

My mom recently had a hip-replacement, so spent a long time in the hospital, and as her only child, that meant I had to be there a lot too -- so I just went into the bathroom in her room, closed the door, and used my Njoy. No one had any idea. The same would be true once I get the eRoll I'm about to order.

Just another great thing about e-cigs -- they're stealthy!

Andria

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

Hoosier, you make a good point about the "camel's nose being in the tent." While I don't entirely disagree with you ... let me suggest that you may be be oversimplifying a bit.

First is the nose. The nose in our case is allowing vapor to be legislated as smoke.

(This is not my position, actually, but some other posters in this thread have thought that it was.)

***

Before we get into the whole indoor/outdoor vaping thing, let's spend a second on the subject of minors.

CASAA and most vapers as far as I know, support a two-tiered system that puts vaping in a different category than tobacco burning, but with some access restrictions:

1) Vaping products should not be accessible to minors.

2) Vaping products should be freely-accessible to adults, without burdensome taxes, or bans on interstate sales, or even regulation which is designed to reduce the number of B&M stores that sell vaping products (i.e. the sorts of restrictions that are typically applied to tobacco burning products). Proof of age should be the only restriction (perhaps in tandem with the usual sales tax that might be applied to - say - a TV set etc.).

[Another way to explain this is that CASAA and most vapers do not want vapers' access to vaping products to be regulated as if vaping products were tobacco products. But we still support a distinction between vaping products and - say - bottled water.]

***

Did a "camel's nose" get in the proverbial "tent?"

Of course not. We all know that the "minor camel" and the "adult camel" are (if I may mix my metaphors disgracefully ... "camels of a different color" - as it were.

Or are they? An ordinance or statute which is initially proposed as a ban on the sale of vaping supplies to minors can be transformed by ammendment or "mark-up" into one that extends state clean air acts to vaping. Or perhaps which taxes vaping supplies in order to minimize access to minors. Perhaps face-to-face sales should be required - all in the name of protecting minors. There's actually some good reason to think that this may happen in some states that haven't already considered these questions - the example of OR comes to mind. (If my memory serves me correctly, I think NE and OK may be in a similar situation.)

I call this the "minor morph."

What politician who wishes to be re-elected is going to vote against a bill or an ordinance that bans the sale of vaping material to minors ... regardless of what else it does that concerns adults?

Looks like the "minor camel" and the "adult camel" may share a "nostril" (yeah, I'm pushing the metaphor, haha).

***

We've seen this "movie" before, right? That's exactly what happened with restrictions on tobacco burning products. Taxes were initially justified in order to restrict access to minors. And then the interstate sales bans followed. After that my favorite kind of flavored tobacco ciggs (cocktail Sobranies, which I always bought for my B-day) were out. Etc.

And as I'm sure you know, the ANTZ are gradually developing this argument that vaping is a danger to society because it "glamorizes smoking," and vaping is a "gateway" to tobacco burning ... ad nauseum. Even if I wanted to buy a pack of British Players, I can't now

Speaking of "movies that we've seen before," (pun intended) the current ANTZ position appears to be that a parent shouldn't be able to take their under-17 child to see "Citizen Kane" because there's a scene in there that involves tobacco smoking: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...orph-ne-bc-ca-us-ny-fl-il-nd-ne-az-nm-ca.html

***

So-o back to the topic of indoor vaping. My opinion (and clearly YMMV), is that if we lose that argument, then we end up with a result similar to what happened in Indy. Not only was indoor vaping banned, but so was a certain amount of outdoor vaping.

Please don't assume that I'm suggesting that we "roll over dead" for all laws/ordinances that basically say vaping = smoking.

My position there is analogous to CASAA's position on minors. Even if one believes the science about nicotine and caffeine (i.e. they are about equally dangerous/addictive, and both are far less so than processed sugar), it makes strategic sense to support a two-tier system, or (if you like) a three-tier system, so long as vaping is not synonymous with smoking.

***

In other words:

1) Chewing a breath mint or even wearing obnoxious perfume/cologne is okay in any location. (Similar to the idea that sales of bottled water should be allowed to everyone.)

2) It's okay (or at least I won't oppose) onerous restrictions on tobacco burning. (Similar to the idea that CASAA doesn't oppose the punitive taxes on tobacco burning products, bans on interstate sales, etc. ... even if individual members do.)

3) Vaping should be in a third category, in which outside vaping (or vaping in private, multi-unit residences) is always permissible, due to the fact that there's not the slightest evidence that vaping outside exposes anyone to even the most minimal risk, i.e. is no more dangerous than allowing someone to blow their nose outside. (Similar to the idea that CASAA strongly opposes punitive taxes on vaping supplies and interstate sales, etc.) The future of "smoke [vape] free campuses" and "smoke [vape] free parks" will eventually lead to "smoke free municipalities" and perhaps even counties. (Or at least city-wide and/or county-wide bans on sales of vaping supplies as per the situation in La Mesa CA - c.f. CASAA: Local Alert: City of La Mesa, California - E-Cigarette Sales Ban which I and others have been posting about in media for the last couple of days.)

***

Sounds like HoosierVapers.Com does great, work and congratulations for your victories. But the loss in Marion/Indy City/County was unfortunate: vapers wanted the "whole loaf" and ended up with nothing.

The fight in South Bend may not be over either, based on this piece of junk that didn't make my "cut" for today's media round-up: www . southbendtribune . com/news/opinion/opinion-regulation-needed-for-e-cigarettes/article_327f9ae6-882d-11e3-8af0-001a4bcf6878.html#user-comment-area

So you get my point. Reasonable folks may disagree about the strategy here, that's really all that's going on. We're all on the same side, as you so generously recognize

Thanks for answering my PM, look forward to working with HoosierVapers.com!!

A camel gets into a tent, not all at once, but in increments.

First is the nose. The nose in our case is allowing vapor to be legislated as smoke.

Quite a bit like the Marion County City Council's inclusion of vaping with the no-smoking laws.

Now we see a bill being introduced to include vaping equipment to be included in the definition of tobacco for tax purposes.

We lost when they went in front of the Marion County City Council, but we didn't lose when we went to South Bend, Lawrance, Beech Grove, and others. If you give ground, it will be taken. The Hoosier Vapers club was there and we did not give ground willingly or say we should pick another battle.

If you allow the camel's nose into the tent, you will soon have a whole camel in your tent.

I live in a representative republic. The vast majority of citizens, and even voters, doesn't care one way or another about vaping. The voters do not bring legislation to representatives, it is the groups who are well funded who write the proposals and convince a representative that they can spin the new restriction as a great thing and garner more voters. The proposal has the author's name changed and it is introduced in committee. Smoke Free Indiana wrote the law that the Marion County City Council passed and it was a "done deal" before it ever went up for a vote. If you contact representatives and tell them they lose your vote and an organizations's votes if they support these kinds of things, they stop supporting them. You have to stop the nose before you have a whole camel in your tent.

How do you educate the public that vaping is different than smoking when you give ground and agree to treat your vapor like smoke? You've already conceded that ground and they are coming on all fronts, local, county, state, national, and regulatory authorities. Picking, cherry picking, your battles just means you are choosing to lose the ones you don't pick. And when you lose one, it gives the aggressor's more to use against you later.

Before I ever thought of vaping or knew of it's existence, I freaked people out. By doing nothing more than standing alone I've heard mothers cry out and gather their children to move them quickly away from me. I've seen business men use their briefcases to shield themselves from my glance. I've been told by complete strangers that I shouldn't walk towards people and give a friendly greeting because I "look like an axe murderer". I vape in public and don't get any of that. In fact, for whatever reason, people of the type that used to be freaked out by me will actually approach and ask me about vaping. (Usually along the lines of, "Is that one of those fake cigarette things?")

I am glad you are willing to fight though. Hopefully you join one of the vaping organizations and lend a hand. Even if you pick which battle you wish to be in, being there for some of them is always welcome.

 

[Hoosier]

There was a good study done with vapers in a small room and the air quality was sampled and quantified. I know it is on CASAA's site. It is very interesting and I think you would enjoy it Roger.

South Bend isn't the only municipality that has an organization bending ears to try to swing support for vaping restrictions. Look closely at Fort Wayne too since the "headquarters" of that organization is there. They have a long reach and are amazingly well funded even though none of us is able to find any organization filing with the Secretary of State and most of their listed supporting organizations haven't existed for years, but somehow support an organization that was created after they went defunct. I'm sure there are dots to connect there, but we haven't been able to find enough of a trail to find where the money is actually coming from.

Yes, we are on the same side. We just see things a bit differently, but that's a good thing. A discussion between folks with different viewpoints, but on the same side, often result in a better decision making process.

Besides, if everyone agreed with me, I would worry about their mental health.

 

[DaveOno]

Great thread, and lots to think about.

I agree with the minors. Sorry, kids, but we know; if you want it, you'll find it.

But I will not vape in front of minors. And I'm careful and considerate where I vape. But I will sing the praises of this cool little device that has saved my life.

If they can sell anti-depression medicine on TV, saying this might cause worse depression and suicidal thoughts and actions? (what???)

Then I should be allowed to purchase and enjoy my Malibu.

Great thread!!!

 

[Contains.Whsky]

.. some fights aren't fighting .. i've had complaints from customers about my staff vaping in public areas .. rather than potentially lose customers .. even though my staffs performance has increased with the elimination of cigarette breaks .. that they will have to vape in the back office .. and to look at it like a smoke break .. but they get to stay inside ..
I don't so much have an issue with "where" i can vape indoors .. i'm not a cloud chaser .. and can politely vape in a bathroom if need be .. what i do have an issue with is increased costs due to taxation .. not being able to readily and easily get supplies and equipment .. or not being able to vape in my house or car.
My grand-daughter is three and has horrible allergies .. she was over the moon when she saw me vaping .. hugged my neck and said .. grammy .. omg .. you're smoking the kind that won't make me sick .. .. and we can notice a definite improvement in her allergies .. and we didn't smoke in front of her .. just the smell on our clothes, etc .. was enough to cause them to act up ..

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

H.P. Lovecraft once said that fear is the most powerful human emotion, and that fear of the unknown is the most potent variety of fear.

He's right.

Although I'm a relative newbie to vaping, I've essentially quit analog ciggies (yeah, I'll have a puff every now and then - just to remind myself why I stopped!). But before I dived in, I spent a lot of time Googling major news outlets' articles, reading posts on forums like this, and watching the zillions of YouTube vids on vaping. (Which didn't stop me from making the dumb mistake of buying the JoyeTech 510T unit - *sigh*.)

What I've noticed is that a lot of newbie vapers (along w/ plenty of experienced ones) seem to think that we should have the right to vape indoors in public spaces. Many still do, where it's legal.

In theory, that might be a scientifically reasonable point of view (especially with 0% e-juice). But I don't think it's a battle worth fighting right now - for two reasons.

1) We have too many other fish to fry. For example, the right to vape outdoors in public parks, college campuses (etc.), the right to buy e-juice and supplies interstate, not to mention the right to vape, period. (In fact, the more evidence that arises about the relative harmlessness of vaping, the louder the hue and cry becomes to ban vaping - in order to protect minors and/or because vaping is allegedly a "gateway" to tobacco burning.)

Do you want to be turned down for a job (or fired) because you vape? That's already happening - employers who refuse to hire analog smokers are also refusing to hire vapers. How about paying the same health insurance rates as analog smokers (that's also already the case).

You can probably forget about your fun flavors like custard or blueberry - these will likely go the way of flavored analog cigarettes. (Banned to protect children.)

Even worse: look out for the massive Federal, state, and local taxes that are going to clobber us in a few years, once more and more people like me are no longer paying taxes on analog ciggies. Imagine paying the same amount of taxes per ml. of e-juice as an analog smoker pays on a pack! (Once more people like me stop smoking analog ciggies, that missing revenue is going to have to come from somewhere, right?) And by the way, once states start taxing e-liquid, you won't be able to buy it off the internet any more (same thing happened with analog cigarettes).

Are all of these things less important as any supposed "right" to vape indoors? (Not in my book.)

2) At the end of the day, the U.S. is a democracy in the sense that that the majority usually gets what it wants. And it's a whole lot harder for non-smoker/non-vapers to become enlightened, than it is for them to cheer on the ignorant journalists, politicians, and health professionals who are going to continue to make vapers' lives miserable in every way that they possibly can (through taxation, regulation, biased studies, and just plain old fear-mongering).

They say "honesty is the best policy," but most folks in a position of shaping public opinion would rather advance their careers by taking the easy way out. Fear beats facts, ninety-nine times out of a hundred, and a lie gets all the way around the world while the truth is still putting on its boots. (Just ask any Muslim who lived in the US shortly after 9/11. Or ask any gay schoolteacher who has been teaching for more than a couple of decades.)

So please - don't vape indoors in a public space (even if it's legal where you live). And don't vape indoors in a private area (even if it's your own home and you have non-smoking/non-vaping guests, or you have non-smoking/non-vaping passengers in your own car).

For every person whom you educate, you're going to scare the daylights out of two more, thus increasing public support for even more horrendous anti-vaping rhetoric, journalism, taxation, regulation, and legislation.

Happy vapin'

--roger

Agreed, to a certain extent, guests or passengers are in for second hand vape if they choose to visit or ride along in my property.

I liken this to going to a club, your going to be exposed to loud noise that very likely will cause a bit of discomfort for some and potentially even hearing loss. If you chose to enter you accept these risks. You are certainly free not to come in or ride along.

I never would vape in a non-vapers home or vehicle, and I think its rude to do so in non-smoking establishments or places where smoking is generally frowned upon (hospital grounds comes to mind).

I feel the same about public display of exotic pets, its a tight line we walk, why make it harder? I like the out of sight out of mind or the squeaky wheel gets the oil ideology.

There is a proper time and place to fight for rights, sucking on your light-saber looking mod in the mall isn't winning us anything.

Maurice

 

[stowaway]

I couldn't agree more. When I made the switch I stuck with my regular smoking ritual and vaped outside. I don't see the need to vape at say a restaurant where smoking isn't allowed. We should be polite about vaping and worry about all this new legislation being brought in. Way bigger fish for sure.

 

[bogmonster]

I couldn't agree more. When I made the switch I stuck with my regular smoking ritual and vaped outside. I don't see the need to vape at say a restaurant where smoking isn't allowed. We should be polite about vaping and worry about all this new legislation being brought in. Way bigger fish for sure.

No, stowaway, I'm sorry. There is no bigger fish than what you've described; the equating of using a pv with smoking.

I smoked outside - in the cold and in the rain - because I had to, not because I chose to. If my family had sensitivities, I would still use my PV outside but that's not the case. If I'm at someone's home, I'll ask and respect their decision. Bars and restaurants disallowed smoking first by choice - a business decision -, and then by legislation - a workers' safety issue.
I don't know about you, but my PV doesn't work worth a damn out in the cold. I don't want to have to go out there to use it, and I don't want to be shoved out to huddle in the doorway with a bunch of smokers. I might as well be smoking at that point and that's exactly what will happen.

While the jury may still be out on the long term personal health effects of using a pv with nicotine liquids, the science is in with regard to the hazards of second-hand, exhaled vapour.
There are no measurable harmful components. There is no public health risk. There is no justification for the equating of the use of a PV with tobacco smoking and the accompanying legislative restrictions on sale and use.

The decision to allow or disallow the use of PVs in a bar or restaurant should fall back on the business owner. It's a business decision based on the wishes of their customers, not a government dictate based on a broad misconception of what the use of a PV is. If the business decides that they don't want people using PVs in their place of business, that's great. Let me know when I ask or put up a sign. I respect that decision. The government has no business legislating this behaviour.
Again, THERE IS NO PUBLIC RISK.

Having said that, I'm not rolling around town looking like Tomas the Tank Engine making huge clouds wherever I go. I would no more start using my PV on a bus or in a plane than I would start chowing down on a donair in that space (for those of you unfamiliar with this delightful piece of heaven, think of a very aromatic gyro made with spiced lamb and beef, mmmm..but I digress...).

It's not illegal to eat a stinky meal on a bus, but the bus company made a decision that they didn't want their customers (or staff) to have to deal with the issue so they, the business, made a policy and put up signs. If you want to use the bus, you can't eat a donair at the same time. Okey-doke; your bus, your rules. No problem. There's no harm in the beautiful donair, so there's certainly no need and no reasonable expectation for a government to rush out and legislate its greasy goodness out of public view. They, as the business owner, can change those rules as they see fit. No legislation required.

No public risk = no need for legislation on its public use.

So where is legislation important - and much of it already exists - in my opinion?

1. packaging and labelling - child-safe packaging and clear accurate labelling for contents
2. liquids tested for safety & constituents
3. No sales to minors. This is already being done properly by many, but really...You can't sell smokes to minors and look how effective that is. Frankly, if I had a teenager who was cranking away on cigarettes and a kick in the .... didn't solve the problem, he'd be getting a couple of egos from the easter bunny (along with a kick in the ....).
4. Marketing. No false health claims. No misleading ads. I wouldn't mind marketing of PVs and nicotine liquids being handled like spirits are handled (less so with beer - I don't need to see a beach party or a clydesdale telling me about my PV and juice...come to think of it, that Capt. Morgan guy gets on my last nerve as well...). People need to be able to market their business but it needs to be done in a responsible way and with repercussions if they aren't.

Anyhow, i do go on, don't I?

My point being is that if you don't want to use your PV where smoking isn't permitted then don't. But don't tell me I can't either and that I should just lie down and let it happen because there are bigger things to worry about.

I'm not suggesting that we should use our PVs in any and all public spaces, but rather that it shouldn't be illegal to do so. Let common courtesy and sense be your guide, and where that fails:

Businesses and property owners have the right and responsibility to develop their own no-tobacco/no-PV/Scent-free policies. Let them; Respect them; and keep misguided government legislation out of it.

And with that, I bid you adieu. I've got a donair to eat.

 

[stevegmu]

This can all be so simple. If smoking is allowed somewhere, so should be vaping. I know they aren't the same but the gen public has trouble making that distinction (a fact which is well known). Just because we quit smoking and now use an electronic device that vaporizes or nic doesn't give us free reign over public places or excuse us from consideration of others. I can't wrap my head around how this truth escapes so many.

"What I've noticed is that a lot of newbie vapers (along w/ plenty of experienced ones) seem to think that we should have the right to vape indoors in public spaces. Many still do, where it's legal."


These are precisely the kind of people that are doing harm to the vaping community whether they realize it or not. Someone posted a thread the other day asking if they should be able to vape on a plane. There was an alarming amount of response from people submitting that vaping should be allowed on a plane. Sigh.

There seems to be this 'we need to educate society about vaping' sentiment while what we need is to educate the vaping community about society.

My guess is these are people who were never cigarette smokers or who started vaping because they think blowing clouds is cool...

 

[Jeff Mayone]

I agree- not worth the battle. I usually sneak into a bathroom, anyone ever set a smoke alarm off with one? I've blown vapor directly into my residential/consumer smoke alarm and was surprised it did not trigger. I am guessing it depends on design? (EG I would believe some models only look at clarity of air...)