Industry Concerns

[Neo]

There was a post on the thread that got closed before anyone could comment on what Linda at PA has put up on her site.

The Perfumer's Workshop

In particular you may want to read about Custard flavors.

http://www.perfumersapprentice.com/flavorsworkshop/custard.html

 

[kpax]

I also would like to see more testing on juices. Also the carriers PG and VG. The study on PG I saw on ECF is from the 1940's.

The biggest industry concern/complaint I have is the lack of testing in the first place. This should be done BEFORE marketing a product. I went into this knowing that long term ffects were not known, but I did not know basic things like flavorings were unknowns too.

Sorry if I offend anyone with my next statements but I am only saying what is nagging at me and a concern for my friends who will not try vaping. They don't want to be a "guinea pig". I am sure there are people reading this who have friends who express this to them too.

I actually feel worse than a guinea pig....at least they are in labs getting blood drawn and urinalysis and vitals taken regularly....here I am with my proverbial "you know what" hanging in the wind just waiting to get sick. LOL The worst part is (I have to laugh or I would cry) is that it's not like I knowingly signed up for a clinical trial or anything...people get PAID for that....heck no, I am the one paying THEM.

Well, it's been a lot of my hard earned money spent and I feel that gives me the right to vent. I hope the industry is listening.

 

[bruther]

If demand reaches a high enough point and the FDA doesn't shut the industry down, I believe large corporations will take over and play a major role in the future of the PV and everything that goes into it. Corporations such as Nestle or Con Agra that have the R&D resources and lobbying power to take the technology into it's next phase. And if that happens, the small vendors won't have to worry about the FDA, they'll be squashed by the big boys.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I also would like to see more testing on juices. Also the carriers PG and VG. The study on PG I saw on ECF is from the 1940's.

The biggest industry concern/complaint I have is the lack of testing in the first place. This should be done BEFORE marketing a product. I went into this knowing that long term ffects were not known, but I did not know basic things like flavorings were unknowns too.

Sorry if I offend anyone with my next statements but I am only saying what is nagging at me and a concern for my friends who will not try vaping. They don't want to be a "guinea pig". I am sure there are people reading this who have friends who express this to them too.

I actually feel worse than a guinea pig....at least they are in labs getting blood drawn and urinalysis and vitals taken regularly....here I am with my proverbial "you know what" hanging in the wind just waiting to get sick. LOL The worst part is (I have to laugh or I would cry) is that it's not like I knowingly signed up for a clinical trial or anything...people get PAID for that....heck no, I am the one paying THEM.

Well, it's been a lot of my hard earned money spent and I feel that gives me the right to vent. I hope the industry is listening.

I can see where your coming from, but clinical trials are not going to happen overnight. There have been limited tests carried out (for example by Ruyan in New Zealand). But this is not a product that has been launched by the drug industry, where the clinical trial would be mandatory before an new product is released. It's pretty much come out of left field (as a recreational smoking alternative IMO) and caught the regulators on the hop...

I'd have to ask, if you feel like that, why are you using them? There are NRT's that have been trialled. All fairly ineffective, but trialled Or cold turkey. Or there's always smoking, which is pretty much a known killer.

 

[kpax]

Papa Lazarou,

I didn't try NRT's as I have never had the desire to quit smoking. I quit by accident with Ecigs and saw them as a smoking replacement. I was intrigued with claims of a safer smoking experience. Now it's coming out that many ECig vendors (they are admitting this themselves) see a need for testing for the industry.

Don't take my post as being against vaping - I am not against marriage but don't have a problem with people needing to vent about their partner I tried to clarify that this is something I hear time and again from people. More people would try ecigs if there were more concrete info.

Any frustration on my part comes from wishing that the industry had figured all of this out beforehand. Not much I can do now but wait for technology to catch up.

 

[Vagablonde]

I would like to see the disclosure on ALL ejuice..and have it labled correctly
if its 100 vg with PG flavoring ie...not 100% vg..that type thing..simply so that people with whatever concerns
over any product can make an informed choice.

 

[my2heartboys]

OK, glad to see that this has come up as there was a similar thread somewhere and I will make most of the same comments here.

The first thing I would recommend is that ejuice producers/mixers (no matter how much or how little you mix and sell) is to voluntarily put labels on their juices (or on a card that could be mailed with bottles of juice) that would fall within the standards that food labels have had to fall within. Yes, that probably means defining what a serving of ejuice is and a reasonable (folks, it doesn't have to be exact down to the micromilligram) estimate on how much nicotine is in a serving. I know that this step will be tough to do, but if Dr. Pepper, Coke, and the major soda makers can put what is in their products without divulging the secret of how much of what and how it is mixed, then, well, ejuice makers should be able to do the same.

The next thing is that they need to voluntarily submit to health and safety inspections and this also means getting their employees up to date on all of the info regarding the ingredients they work with as well as make sure that all of their employees know where the MSDS sheets are located on every ingredient. Employers, you need to be able to run routine hazard drills so that every employee knows how to respond in case of an emergency and have open discussions to consider any input on how those responses can be improved.

The first part of this is easy, what I am getting ready to suggest next is not.

All of the producers need to work together to come up with a quality assurance (QA) program. That means that the juices need to be tested to be able to measure up to the claims that the producer makes (If it does or doesn't contain certain ingredients, and if possible be able to measure any substances that is in the vapor....yeah, easier said than done). I know that this process will take a lot of trial and error, but as information is gathered on testing procedures, share it with other producers. This way all will benefit in the general development of testing procedures.

The next thing that needs to be done is that testing on the validity and safety of vaping needs to be done. This is easier said than done here in the states because of current politics.

I also agree on a couple of things that has already been mentioned here in this thread. First, folks, this industry currently has enough on its plate, stop adding ingredients such as vitamins, caffeine (yeah, there are days that I would definitely love to be able to inhale massive amounts of it) and other substances that could muck up the development of this industry here in the states. Yes, I know it might immediately cost you some business, but in the long term you would gain greater amounts of business as well as credibility.

The other thing I will agree on is that there needs to be an established set of safety standards that the devices have to meet.

OK, think I have said enough for the moment.

Anne

 

[ScottB]

I'll leave the juice content issues to others more informed & more concerned. As far as pure function, the juice makers should agree on some kind of viscosity rating to allow the end user to better match hardware or vaping-style to the juice they're trying to use - or to better match juice choices to their hardware and vaping style.

Makers of atty's & cartomizers need to stop shipping units with unidentified primer fluid - or failing that - they need to provide cleaning & preparation instructions so users can avoid vaping the stuff. If they absolutely have to have the stuff in there, they need to identify it. I'm quite cynical about its necessity and quite certain the liquid aids in assembly of these tiny devices...

In all facets the PV industry should self-regulate to higher standards. Period.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Papa Lazarou,

I didn't try NRT's as I have never had the desire to quit smoking. I quit by accident with Ecigs and saw them as a smoking replacement. I was intrigued with claims of a safer smoking experience. Now it's coming out that many ECig vendors (they are admitting this themselves) see a need for testing for the industry.

Don't take my post as being against vaping - I am not against marriage but don't have a problem with people needing to vent about their partner I tried to clarify that this is something I hear time and again from people. More people would try ecigs if there were more concrete info.

Any frustration on my part comes from wishing that the industry had figured all of this out beforehand. Not much I can do now but wait for technology to catch up.

That's cool. I wasn't having a go but was interested in why you vaped despite your comments. I gave up by accident too I'm pretty sure there have been more recent studies on chronic PG inhalation over the medium term (to do with smoke machines in theatrical usage I think..).

With regards to the production of e-liquid, I would like to see some move away from the "cottage industry" it's become, where as far as I can see, an enthusiastic DIY'er can basically set up a production facility in their spare room and sell their product to the public at large. I would like to see minimum standards for the area where they are produced, i.e. it would have to be a purpose built facility, with appropriate hygiene standards etc. Something that would stand up to inspection. I think requiring qualified chemists to be in charge of the production would be a sensible requirement. Regular GC/MS testing of batches of finished liquids, with results disclosed publicly. All nicotine concentrates used for producing liquid should be tested for strength IMO. MSDS should be available for all flavours, and bottles should be labled with accurate ingredient lists and appropriate warnings.

 

[Sdh]

Propylene Glycol Research Study Results

This page has some intersting links...on pg Propylene Glycol Research Study Results
If one clicks back on this page go to the science link.
This vapor group did some research.

 

[FreakyStylie]

I think the biggest risk in the vaping is in the juice. As a group we are entrusting one of the most critical organs (officially I guess a pair) we have to people who rarely have any education in any related field (be it chemistry or medical) and little or no motivation to provide a safe product. Frankly, with the FDA situation the way it is, I can imagine that there are a few vendors who see little reason to invest money in safety; make as much now while they can. Because there is no consumer watchdog, it would be fairly easy for an unscrupulous vendor to take advantage of the vaping public. So a consumer advocacy organization, not beholden to the vendors, would seem to be necessary to ensure validity of any safety claims, maybe providing a 'seal of approval' type thing.

So the two improvements I see as being good for the industry and the consumers, and two that would go hand in hand, would be a bonafide consumer advocate and safety standards.

We have an excellent format here to create an advocacy group. I would really like to see that. Most of the stuff that I have read is all scattered about. It would be nice to have a concise list of expectations and concerns.

It would be nice to see sites with a seal of approval akin to the BBB. A site with the "XXXX" logo could be donned to sites meeting their criteria. (Call it Safety and Awareness for Vaporizing Ethics or something - SAVE) Having a site designed to show what the expectations are, and why, could be a very excellent thing, and could potentially aid in the FDA favoring the industry because it has its own watchdog organization.

For example, the list of expectations that would need to be met would include: Battery safety, charger icons for proper battery fit, free from harmful chemicals, offering of PG free juices, lack of marketing to minors, lack of complaints about services reported, etc. Of course, building and maintaining a list is one thing, but how would a group go about actually doing the "watch dogging" part? Do suppliers send copies of schematics and inspection reports and customers contact the site with shipping or product issues?

I've gotten part of my addiction and intake of harmful substances reduced, now I want to find out more.

 

[andygee]

I'm going to agree with everything everyone said about the safety of the juice and hardware. That said, I think the most important thing the industry can do is GET EVERY SMOKER AWARE that the product exists. There should be well-publicized exhibitons in every town. Once everyone sees how good these are (or can be) public demand will alter the political situation to our favor and generate enough revenue for reasonable safety standards.

 

[warbdan]

So, basically, we need to appoint a group of people to be the watchdog group. Vendors would have their e-liquids tested and submit the results to the watchdog group for approval? That could be a really good thing. Now all we need is someone qualified to step forward and set this in motion. This person would maintain the list of approved suppliers, correct? It could work.

 

[bjannr]

I have just read through this thread. (I may have missed some posts) I agree that companies operating in the same area should combine their operations. No company owuld have to give up their trademark products, like the different e-juices, but why couldn't the companies just combine resources and still produce the same products they do now. Instead of there being competition among us, everyone needs to unite to fight the people/organizations that may try to ban e-cigs. United we stand, divided we fall.
I would love to have a helping hand in a watch group. I have a bit of experience with things like this, our states Homeschool law, and Horse slaughter regulation.

 

[warbdan]

Are you volunteering?

 

[resist]

I will not eat cookies, cakes, exc,,, that people bring to work. I do not know if their hands, pans, or counters are clean. I am moving in the same direction with the e-liquid. I don't eat at restaurants very often any more. If I do, The sanitation grade will be no lower than 98. I would like some sort of grade for those that mix e-liquid. The FDA is going to regulate the nicotine before all is said and done. The FDA rejected and protested the regulation of nicotine when it was first assigned to them. But they were forced into it. If the company's would not have made health claims, they probably would have left it alone. Just like Cheerios. They have been around for a long time, but when they claimed eating Cheerios would lower your cholesterol, the FDA stepped in and said Cheerios needed to be regulated as a drug. Also, quit naming a liquid flavor after cigarette brand names. They don't taste like them anyway.

 

[Harlequin]

From a PR point of view, and also in interests of accuracy, companies should stop promoting themselves with names/catch-phrases that refer to "smoking" or "cigarettes". This isn't just sophistry.

People have become conditioned, over generations, to associate the act of inhaling a nicotine-laden "cloud" with "smoking", and vaping mimics the act of smoking so effectively that many people are literally unable to grasp the difference. However, that difference is absolutely crucial to influencing the public/legal/etc. perceptions of vaping.

Even small companies are in a position to effect this influence via their branding and publicity practices.

 

[bruther]

Sounds like some people here want to dictate over juice producers. I certainly don't want a small group of people deciding what is in my best interest. Making people aware of what juices have ingredients that might be harmful to them is one thing. Many of the things people are suggesting here, go way over the line in being intrusive in the running of a private company, in a free market society.
And I have seen enough political tactics from vendors already, to know that any "watchdog" group would not be independent and unbiased for long, not that it would be in the first place.

 

[Stosh]

Makers of atty's & cartomizers need to stop shipping units with unidentified primer fluid - or failing that - they need to provide cleaning & preparation instructions so users can avoid vaping the stuff. If they absolutely have to have the stuff in there, they need to identify it. I'm quite cynical about its necessity and quite certain the liquid aids in assembly of these tiny devices...

In all facets the PV industry should self-regulate to higher standards. Period.

I would think this should be an absolute minimum standard!
Any good manfacturing facility should be able to ensure the product is clean on delivery.
Food producers can clean and pasturize their products prior to shipment.

An atty make should clean (ultrasonic cleaner??) their product of any machine oil or
other contaminates, then if desired "prime" with 100% USP VG or PG, and lable them as such.

As consumers we need to hold them to the highest standards, you would do the same
when buying any other product.

My

 

[progg]

Agreed bruther.

My earlier post in regards to safety -- Random product and facility audits by certifiably independent professionals.

Sounds like some people here want to dictate over juice producers. I certainly don't want a small group of people deciding what is in my best interest. Making people aware of what juices have ingredients that might be harmful to them is one thing. Many of the things people are suggesting here, go way over the line in being intrusive in the running of a private company, in a free market society.
And I have seen enough political tactics from vendors already, to know that any "watchdog" group would not be independent and unbiased for long, not that it would be in the first place.