Industry Concerns

[Skruf]

Here are my thoughts, - the industry needs to dial in, really dial in on what the smoking experience is for light and separately, full flavor cigarettes in terms of ease of use and feelilng (throat hit, vapor production). The current generation is too complicated for the average person, especially since so many are sold in mall stores. You shouldn't need a salesperson or expert to tell you how to make the myriad adjustments to get a satisfactory experience. You shouldn't have the experience of buying a product to replace cigarettes and have it fail miserably in satisfying the cravings. Build a product that Joe Schmo at the Kwikee Mart can sell and explain that just works and works the way lighting up a Marlboro does.

 

[SimpleSins]

And what does it cost to get this so-called "Good vaping Seal"? And who determines what constitutes these requirements? And you also cannot say that it will only cost $20 to get a supposidly safer product. I run my own business and have also worked for many years in management for one of the largest companies in the world. What seems easy to the average consumer in most cases is not easy at all. All I am saying is some on here are making it sound like a "piece of cake" to make these changes and believe it will have little or no impact on those who supply us or on our ability to vape as we do now. That is naive, at best.

Oh, okay. If it's difficult and naive to think that we can make this a safer industry, I'll just ignore the issues and let the government step in and take care of it since they do it so much more efficiently that we can.

This is a consumer's group created by consumer. Who set up the standards for what Good Housekeeping put their seal on? How about Consumer Reports? I understand that nobody everybody cares what they vape, but some do. It's easy enough to ignore safety if you don't care, but it can't be invented for those that do. I just really cannot see why there is opposition to making vaping as safe as we can based on the information at hand.

 

[wv2win]

.............And this is, at best, a consumable business. And, really, if someone cannot meet the conditions I mentioned above; i.e., the kids and dogs in the mixing room, the paper towel in lieu of actual washing, and just guessing at how much nicotine they're putting in the juice, do they really deserve to be making a product that is inhaled into someone's lungs?

Are you a chemist, a phamacist or doctor? Are those really the only regulations needed? Would these regulations stay the same and not change? Could a new health inspector require stricter regulations or interpret these regulations differently? Would I need to hire a law firm that specializes in pharmacology law? Would I need an air purification system for the room used for liquid mixing? Would I need a separte ventilation system and HAVC system?

 

[SimpleSins]

All these analogies to food-prep, laboratories, food-safe, & sterility requirements are poison to the industry.

There should be standards (tacitly self regulated) that are no more strict than tobacco product standards. Volunteering to self regulate similar to FOOD and/or DRUG companies is BEGGING to be governmentally regulated in the same way. This is "Other Tobacco Products". Not "recreational nicotine" (whovever coined that phrase needs to be shot), not McDonalds, and not Glaxo Smith Klein. This is nicotine - derived from tobacco - packaged into a liquid delivery system. Every statement, reference, inference, or notion connecting vaping to FOOD or DRUG is another peg for big government to hang their proverbial hat on. We need to stop it. We don't need to be doing the anti's work for them.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but as long as vendors are defining safety based on their use of FDA GRAS flavorings, it will continue to be the defining status. As for the mixing, I believe it is illegal in all 50 states for anyone to sell their own tobacco products (it's not illegal to grow it, but it is to sell it), so at that point the mixing of the eliquid might be able to be viewed in that context. Even to sell someone else's tobacco you still need a state license for cigarettes and a business license, which is an area that most of the vendors are not adhering to now, either. So they are flying with no oversight whatsoever, and that is not good for the consumer.

 

[kpax]

I'm not exactly sure where you are coming up with these doomsday scenarios. Nobody said extensive testing need be done (although I guess that depends on how you define extensive). And if you want to use your analogy of Big Pharma, let's look at the different numbers of antibiotics- there's a flavor for everybody. Antidepressants- do you want a dessert, a tobacco, or a beverage?

I don't see how we can say with one breath that we are a safer alternative to smoking and then in the next breath say that it would be too inconvenient and/or expensive to prove that. And you can make a rather wild guess that it is going to cost 30 times what it does now, but you can't really say that. For instance, what if it only doubles it. Would I pay $20 for 30 mL of juice that I knew was made safely, that I knew that the chemicals on the pulmonary watch-list were not in my juice, and that my juice cost extra because of those things (and were verifiable independently)? You betcha. Because that's why I vape. I didn't quit smoking to save money or because I didn't like the taste or even because I didn't want to drive to town to get cigarettes. I had hoped to satisfy that "smoking" itch with a safer alternative, and if costs a little bit more to do so because my preferred vendor took the necessary steps to earn the Good Vaping Seal of Approval, then I will pay it.

Very good point. That's why I hope this converstion keeps going.

One good example of an industry that made the "safe" claims was the tanning business. I was heavily involved in that in the late 80's early 90's and that is a perfect example of new technology coming along and making all kinds of safety claims they couldn't back up. I worked at 2 tanning salons and we were told to tell customers the whole spiel about the difference in UVA/UVB rays and how the bad rays were reduced, yadda, yadda and it all turned out to be WRONG. I belived it myself. Tanned every day. Now everyone knows that is actually more dangerous that regular sun. I regret jumping on that bandwagon considering skin cancer is more prevalent than lung and it's also latent.

Hopefully this won't be the case with e-cigs. I am cautiously optimistic. If I sound like a naysayer it's just experience talking...fool me once.....

 

[wv2win]

All these analogies to food-prep, laboratories, food-safe, & sterility requirements are poison to the industry.

There should be standards (tacitly self regulated) that are no more strict than tobacco product standards. Volunteering to self regulate similar to FOOD and/or DRUG companies is BEGGING to be governmentally regulated in the same way. This is "Other Tobacco Products". Not "recreational nicotine" (whovever coined that phrase needs to be shot), not McDonalds, and not Glaxo Smith Klein. This is nicotine - derived from tobacco - packaged into a liquid delivery system. Every statement, reference, inference, or notion connecting vaping to FOOD or DRUG is another peg for big government to hang their proverbial hat on. We need to stop it. We don't need to be doing the anti's work for them.

Further, we don't know what we don't know. How about someone listing the flavoring & enhancing ingredients common to eliquids that have been exhaustively tested and found to be safe, harmless, and/or otherwise "appropriate" (love that word) for inhalation along with the levels tested and the determined limits. When I see that list, I'll immediately volunteer to become head zealot for the full-disclosure cause - at my own expense. Until then, and believe me I'm no Polyanna, these things are best left to common sense & market forces. Vote with your wallet, voice your opinions, but open activism when you don't know what you don't know is just loading the oppositions' guns and then jumping directly in front of them.

+1, well said.

 

[ScottB]

I'm not sure I agree with this...

I'll absolutely concede your right to disagree. I'm quite often wrong. Let me put it differently to take the disagreement out of it.

Let's talk nic-free liquid. Now... how about that list of tested, appropriate inhalants?

 

[SimpleSins]

Are you a chemist, a phamacist or doctor? Are those really the only regulations needed? Would these regulations stay the same and not change? Could a new health inspector require stricter regulations or interpret these regulations differently? Would I need to hire a law firm that specializes in pharmacology law? Would I need an air purification system for the room used for liquid mixing? Would I need a separte ventilation system and HAVC system?

Those are the ones that I mentioned as among the conditions that California requires for their home-based food products. And the health restrictions would depend on the state and country. I will say it again, in case you missed it the last 15 times I said it, no business would be obligated to get the safe vaping seal and no customer would be obligated to buy juice with the seal. If someone enjoys the heady feel on the back of the tongue that can only come from a juice well stepped with german shepherd hair, terrific. If eau de Enterococcus is what does it for someone else, let them enjoy. However, for those of us that are partial to collie and are resistant to most of the antibiotics used for Enterococcus, it would be great to have some standards in place.

 

[wv2win]

Those are the ones that I mentioned as among the conditions that California requires for their home-based food products. And the health restrictions would depend on the state and country. I will say it again, in case you missed it the last 15 times I said it, no business would be obligated to get the safe vaping seal and no customer would be obligated to buy juice with the seal. If someone enjoys the heady feel on the back of the tongue that can only come from a juice well stepped with german shepherd hair, terrific. If eau de Enterococcus is what does it for someone else, let them enjoy. However, for those of us that are partial to collie and are resistant to most of the antibiotics used for Enterococcus, it would be great to have some standards in place.

I would suggest that for those who are that concerned about their e-liquid, rather than go down the very slippery slope of increased regulation, they could just mix their own e-liquid and the perceived problem would be eliminated.

 

[SimpleSins]

I'll absolutely concede your right to disagree. I'm quite often wrong. Let me put it differently to take the disagreement out of it.

Let's talk nic-free liquid. Now... how about that list of tested, appropriate inhalants?

I think there are only a handful. I'm not exactly sure what point you're making, but it's also helping me with mine. Few flavors are approved for inhalation. Some are actually considered pulmonary pathogens, but some vendors continue to use them in some of their juices. Some are being studied even as I write this for their potential as pulmonary pathogens. But some vendors seem a bit reluctant to address this. Now I'm intelligent enough and well read enough in science and occupational health to know about these bugaboos. You obviously are an intelligent person and are aware of the potential dangers and have made your choice as to whether they pose a threat to you or not. But what about those that don't have as much education on the subject as you might? What about someone who already has damaged lungs? Should they really be risking their lungs to diacetyl and some of the substitutes used for it? But if we don't allow the information to flow, they're not going to know that vaping that delicious butterscotch caramel blend may not be a particularly good idea.

 

[FreakyStylie]

All these analogies to food-prep, laboratories, food-safe, & sterility requirements are poison to the industry.

There should be standards (tacitly self regulated) that are no more strict than tobacco product standards. Volunteering to self regulate similar to FOOD and/or DRUG companies is BEGGING to be governmentally regulated in the same way. This is "Other Tobacco Products". Not "recreational nicotine" (whovever coined that phrase needs to be shot), not McDonalds, and not Glaxo Smith Klein. This is nicotine - derived from tobacco - packaged into a liquid delivery system. Every statement, reference, inference, or notion connecting vaping to FOOD or DRUG is another peg for big government to hang their proverbial hat on. We need to stop it. We don't need to be doing the anti's work for them.

Further, we don't know what we don't know. How about someone listing the flavoring & enhancing ingredients common to eliquids that have been exhaustively tested and found to be safe, harmless, and/or otherwise "appropriate" (love that word) for inhalation along with the levels tested and the determined limits. When I see that list, I'll immediately volunteer to become head zealot for the full-disclosure cause - at my own expense. Until then, and believe me I'm no Polyanna, these things are best left to common sense & market forces. Vote with your wallet, voice your opinions, but open activism when you don't know what you don't know is just loading the oppositions' guns and then jumping directly in front of them.

Very good and understandable points. If we go around ranting and making a big noise, we can end up tipping the cart.

True that this is not "recreational nicotine", and I cringe at typing that because the google-bots will find this page, but this is also not cigarettes. Like you said, "other tobacco products" is the category it belongs in. So, to keep a topic-correct conversation, what terminology should we use?

Even tobacco products are processed and manufactured in a regulated environment. Mixing juice requires certain health requirements by law simply because they are produced for consumption. The environment would be required to remain clean to prevent contamination from stray materials. What would be the proper terminology for a location that juice is made in? A clean room? A plant?

I know that typing doesn't come across well. These are legitimate questions that I have because I am working on what to show the state of Oregon to get them to let me open a shop. I don't know that I would, but it is the only way I can think of to find the answers to all their questions.

 

[ScottB]

I think there are only a handful. I'm not exactly sure what point you're making...

Sorry, I'll try to be more clear. I believe the list of "flavoring & enhancing ingredients common to eliquids that have been exhaustively tested and found to be safe, harmless, and/or otherwise "appropriate" (love that word) for inhalation along with the levels tested and the determined limits" has zero items on it. My point is that I don't want vaping regulators protecting me any more than the tobacco regulators ever protected me. And I don't like giving them ammo. I choose to do this. I accept the risks. There are countless thousands like me. I don't want well-intentioned alarmists within my community bringing inappropriate regulation upon us - even though unintentional. I respect your opinion and those that agree with you. I'm sincerely concerned that "we" are paving the way for scrutiny the industry cannot withstand. If/when this activity becomes cost prohibitive - or illegal - I'd like to be able to blame forces outside of our own. That's all.

And Freaky, please do some research (the History Channel had a good program - the video is on this board somewhere http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/campaigning-discussions/135770-fda-truth-sticky-2.html Post #14) about tobacco production facilities and methods. Then you'll see what I mean. As far as nomenclature to keep your institutions happy - idk... I'd have to chew on that for a while. FWIW - I refer to my PV (don't like that term either, sounds like I'm sick) as Boni (pronounced Bonnie)... my Battery Operated Nicotine Inhaler. Not PC but then I'm not trying to be...

 

[GoodDog]

California doesn't allow any consumables to be made in a home. There needs to be a separate kitchen and that's for anything that will be ingested. To my knowledge you can't get a business permit for consumables being made in residential zoning. I imagine it would be even more strict for something inhaled using hazardous materials such as the high milligram nicotine the vendors buy.

 

[FreakyStylie]

I choose to do this. I accept the risks.

This is what I am about. But I know the risks, therefore I can accept them. That is what the state of Oregon is about. And, like it or not, they will have to be appeased to some extent.

Oregon is a nanny state. Sometimes to the extreme. They want things spelled out for them, even the risks. I fully agree that we should not voluntarily divulge more risks than they already know about. But walking into a ring without being ready to defend myself would be foolish.

I like the idea of a Better Business Bureau for vaping for two simple facts. The feds will be less inclined to do the regulation themselves if there are no fowl complaints from consumers, and if the industry is self-regulating. If the industry regulates itself then they don't have to account for spending resources they don't have.

I don't feel as though the powers that be would be complaining about and investigating "us" if it weren't for a few loose threads that got noticed. I feel a watchdog group could have helped to prevent these guys from focusing solely on the dollars coming in. As long as it is professional and not some militant group, I think it would be a good thing.

Just like having kids . . . as long as they are neither too loud, nor too quiet, there is no reason to believe you need to step in.

 

[kpax]

My point is that I don't want vaping regulators protecting me any more than the tobacco regulators ever protected me. And I don't like giving them ammo. I choose to do this. I accept the risks. There are countless thousands like me. I don't want well-intentioned alarmists within my community bringing inappropriate regulation upon us - even though unintentional. I respect your opinion and those that agree with you. I'm sincerely concerned that "we" are paving the way for scrutiny the industry cannot withstand. If/when this activity becomes cost prohibitive - or illegal - I'd like to be able to blame forces outside of our own. That's all.
..

You can blame the industry itself. They are the ones trying to get bigger and putting ecigs in shopping malls and 7-11's. I just heard a commercial as I am typing this for a "free trial".

The bigger they get the more they are going to be under pressure to answer the safety questions. That's why many are willing to test and will do what they need to comply. More dollars. It has nothing to with well intentioned alarmists. These companys want to grow and reach a larger market. If they didn't then they wouldn't be in malls in the first place. Everything would stay a small tight knit community that has no interest in marketing to the outside world. Most of the people here now would have never heard of it. That's not what the industry wants. I understand what you are saying but you need to try to see what came first. They don't care if you DYI, they want the big dollars from the mass market. That's why the attention is coming.

Trust me, they want to grow, that is why my inbox is full with specials/ads ever since I got into vaping.

 

[ScottB]

California doesn't allow any consumables to be made in a home...

Neither does New York. My hope is the "big guns" of the industry (ie Dekang) fight the good fight and prevail. Then I would hope that the smaller guys would do their best to follow the accepted guidelines. Then I would hope that regulations would be tiered similar to other industries - with smaller "facilities" (based on $Volume or # of employees or something like that) allowed more lax standards in line with their actual exposure and their customers' exposure. If they grow, they comply with the stricter regs. It would be fair and act a "weed killer" at the same time. In the meantime, the industry could prove its good intentions by fixing & cleaning the hardware... thereby removing at least that much taint from their collective reputations.

And Freaky, try to set up your shop here in NY. I'm sure the hurdles are very very similar. For now, all you can present is anecdotal evidence with broad brushstrokes and hope they don't do too much homework. Such as "3 plus years of growing use and no specific illnesses or deaths directly attributable...", "...no worse than smoking and potentially safer...". But the bean counters are going to want to know how they're replacing the revenue lost from folks switching from highly taxed tobacco. And they'll probably defer to the FDA data - irrespective of its accuracy or bias... just the way it is I'm afraid... Your "kids" analogy is appropos, but the kids already ...... off the FDA... and they have a strong tendency to hold a grudge.

 

[ScottB]

You can blame the industry itself. They are the ones trying to get bigger and putting ecigs in shopping malls and 7-11's. I just heard a commercial as I am typing this for a "free trial".

The bigger they get the more they are going to be under pressure to answer the safety questions. That's why many are willing to test and will do what they need to comply. More dollars. It has nothing to with well intentioned alarmists. These companys want to grow and reach a larger market. If they didn't then they wouldn't be in malls in the first place. Everything would stay a small tight knit community that has no interest in marketing to the outside world. Most of the people here now would have never heard of it. That's not what the industry wants. I understand what you are saying but you need to try to see what came first. They don't care if you DYI, they want the big dollars from the mass market. That's why the attention is coming.

Trust me, they want to grow, that is why my inbox is full with specials/ads ever since I got into vaping.

Agreed. I'm just suggesting that all comparative references be limited to Tobacco products, from raw materials to production to consumption - not food or drugs. Much easier to argue BT's safety record... BT? Safety Record? Oxymoron. The industry AND ourselves should be steering in the "Other tobacco product" direction and not comparing to other regulated industries. And I don't DIY. I spend way too much time cleaning, preparing, & altering the hardware to suit. I'd need to be retired to have the time to DIY.

 

[FreakyStylie]

But the bean counters are going to want to know how they're replacing the revenue lost from folks switching from highly taxed tobacco.

That is a major and heavily veiled hurdle I'm researching right now. Get this hypocrisy . . . 73% of the tax on cigarettes in Oregon goes to the Oregon Health Plan. The OHP is a program that gives health insurance to the children of low income families. I forget the number that qualify, but it is around 1/3 of Oregon families. So, in order for Oregon's children to remain healthy, Oregonians need to keep smoking. It makes my head hurt and my eyes cross every time I think of it. Yeah, those bean counters are going to be tough cookies, LOL. As long as they don't believe that vaping helps with cessation of tobacco addiction, and people will continue to buy cigarettes, they shouldn't have a problem with it, right? LOLOLOLOL Oh, that was hard to type.

 

[ScottB]

That is a major and heavily veiled hurdle I'm researching right now. Get this hypocrisy . . . 73% of the tax on cigarettes in Oregon goes to the Oregon Health Plan. The OHP is a program that gives health insurance to the children of low income families. I forget the number that qualify, but it is around 1/3 of Oregon families. So, in order for Oregon's children to remain healthy, Oregonians need to keep smoking. It makes my head hurt and my eyes cross every time I think of it. Yeah, those bean counters are going to be tough cookies, LOL. As long as they don't believe that vaping helps with cessation of tobacco addiction, and people will continue to buy cigarettes, they shouldn't have a problem with it, right? LOLOLOLOL Oh, that was hard to type.

Don't want to stray too far OT but I'd love to see the stats on those qualifying families and how many of the adult members smoke. Round & round it goes...

 

[kpax]

ScottB:

LOL I know what you mean I actually agree with you in a lot of ways about the tobacco part with self regulation as an option. You sound well versed on this and I am probably stating what you already know; but they got the FDA's attention with the mass marketing, the stop smoking claims and adding drugs like ......, etc. to formula's. They have hardly been trying to stay under the radar.

I don't think the FDA wants to regulate this too strictly. JMO It would be a logistical nightmare for them. They simply don't have the manpower and the gov't doesn't have the money. At worst there may be some basic oversight. I don't know yet. Your comment about the lube shop/ejuice store really cracked me up. People would actually do that....As long as THAT doesn't happen....talk about some positive attention....and customers get some basic info on ingredients and no "safe" claims (other than opinion) until the real science catches up the vast majority of us will be happy. Probably the powers that be too.