is big tobacco intentionally making bad e-cigs?

[Orb Skewer]

If the user drops the PV from BT and buys a pack of analogs, BT wins either way .. maybe that's the master plan ..

BT saw no money in the PV market years ago .. it's a whole different scenario now .. I believe the PV is ultimately a game changer and BT knows it now and wishes they had started earlier ..

I would agree with that Willie-the master plan

And they have come into the market now.....with products that are 6 years old

 

[Caridwen]

I don't think mini's are bad. I don't think they're the best pv for a long time smoker that want's to quit smoking. Once you're not smoking and over that cig addiction, they're fine.

But in answer to to OP's question "is big tobacco intentionally making bad e-cigs?". It's possible. If the person vapes their mini's they make money. If the person goes back to smoking, they make money. If they can somehow get in bed with the FDA and control the products they want to regulate (putting out low nicotine cartridges) they'll control the marketplace and make money.

 

[xpackaday]

I bought the gas station e-cigs when I started. They did the trick to get off the antalogs. But I found I was spending more. so I started searching and found an over priced kit. Then bought some better bat's, started mixing my own, bought some mods, etc... Now I spend on average less then 25 per month.

I think many of us started with the gas station e-cigs and I assume the tobacco companies ones are like the ones I stared with. They want you to keep buying their products and spending about the same or more per month to smoke. They have gotten use to the revolving door on the revenue. Right now the taxes on e-cigs is much less the analogs. I think I read that cigarettes sales is forcasted to be down by at leas 10% this year. They have to be running scared. Experts are saying e-cigs will be a 1 billion a year industry by the end of 2013 and by 2047 will be out selling analogs.

So yes they want part of this revenue. Government don't want to lose taxes. If the state lost tobacco taxes their budgets would be in a short fall. The Fed would have billions less in income. The not-for-profit anti-tobacco groups need to have a cause to stay in business and keep their jobs. Who would think that something that that is much healthier would have attracted such negative attention because of the greed of government and "anti-tobacco people???

 

[Jman8]

Did the eCig makers who entered the market in 2009 intentionally make bad products then? If not, then why did they choose to try to improve upon what they initially brought to the market?

I'd like to revisit this thread in 3 to 5 years and see if the premise in OP holds any water at that point.

 

[SmellYaLaterCigs]

I'm not sure if they're intentionally creating bad products, but they're clearly targeting complete beginners who want to put in 0 effort other than dragging on a cig-a-like.

Not a bad idea honestly. Beginners don't realize there are better products out there and more advanced users already know what they want and where to get it. Seems like a profitable decision for them.

 

[DRock]

A profitable decision definitely. What worries me is that this will give BT a large market share in the e-cig industry. Big corporations have been in bed with government policy making for years in order to protect their share value and overall profits. They do not want a vast number of small privately owned companies making up the majority of the market, that goes directly against their prime motive: control of the market for the sake of profit. If they do nothing, the more and more people will convert to using e cigs and their profits will decline over time. If they establish a strong foothold in the e cig industry then they are good to go. I would not be surprised in the slightest if the FDA released a study based on poorly conducted science with manipulated presentation of data claiming that the tobacco vaporizer product that has been getting some attention is "the only thoroughly tested and proven harm reduction alternative to analogs." History shows us that our government has absolutely no qualms with manipulation of facts to protect the interests of large corporations, why would this be any different? especially when you look at governments total income from tobacco taxes.....

 

[rhean]

Uncle Willie, I know you never said tobacco would become illegal! I mentioned it as it's one less thing for BT to worry about. Also, yes, analog use is on the increase in many countries, which also benefits BT. I meant that as things are right now, they have little to gain and much to lose from marketing a functioning, cost effective, lasting vaping product. I can see their making contingency plans for "the worst," but I can't see their doing anything to create those conditions--if that made any sense

btw I keep forgetting to "reply with quote," sorry.

 

[Uncle Willie]

A profitable decision definitely. What worries me is that this will give BT a large market share in the e-cig industry. Big corporations have been in bed with government policy making for years in order to protect their share value and overall profits. They do not want a vast number of small privately owned companies making up the majority of the market, that goes directly against their prime motive: control of the market for the sake of profit. If they do nothing, the more and more people will convert to using e cigs and their profits will decline over time. If they establish a strong foothold in the e cig industry then they are good to go. I would not be surprised in the slightest if the FDA released a study based on poorly conducted science with manipulated presentation of data claiming that the tobacco vaporizer product that has been getting some attention is "the only thoroughly tested and proven harm reduction alternative to analogs." History shows us that our government has absolutely no qualms with manipulation of facts to protect the interests of large corporations, why would this be any different? especially when you look at governments total income from tobacco taxes.....

the Business of Business is Business .. a corporation will use what tools it has available to sway, manipulate and create what is in their best interest .. it has always been so, and I doubt it's going to change .. we live in a Democracy, and within the limits imposed, they are free to do as they please ..

Folks, whether you believe it or not, we are living in the Golden Age of the PV .. that's what History is telling us .. it is inevitable and certain that consolidation / regulation of some sort / Corporate Take Over will happen .. you don't grow an Industry from nothing to a Billion $ a year in a short time and not attract attention .. with even more substantial growth predicted ..

Please cite one provable example in the last 20 years where Government as a whole has manipulated the facts to protect a large Corporation .. not some rogue Senator / Congressman / or Government Employee .. just one provable example ..

 

[DRock]

the Business of Business is Business .. a corporation will use what tools it has available to sway, manipulate and create what is in their best interest .. it has always been so, and I doubt it's going to change .. we live in a Democracy, and within the limits imposed, they are free to do as they please ..

Folks, whether you believe it or not, we are living in the Golden Age of the PV .. that's what History is telling us .. it is inevitable and certain that consolidation / regulation of some sort / Corporate Take Over will happen .. you don't grow an Industry from nothing to a Billion $ a year in a short time and not attract attention .. with even more substantial growth predicted ..

Please cite one provable example in the last 20 years where Government as a whole has manipulated the facts to protect a large Corporation .. not some rogue Senator / Congressman / or Government Employee .. just one provable example ..

I may have been overstating the devious acts of our government a bit, however it is my belief that this has happened and will continue to happen.

One big one that comes to mind though is the lie about WMD's in Iraq, from which the corporate weapon makers profited handsomely. think about how much a drone costs to make, with all the electronics that go into them. Predator missiles too. How many of those did we/do we use again?

If they can lie about the prime motive to use military force on a large scale in a foreign country, I feel like they potentially could lie about something such as electronic cigarette safety. Again, this is just an opinion.

 

[DRock]

the Business of Business is Business .. a corporation will use what tools it has available to sway, manipulate and create what is in their best interest .. it has always been so, and I doubt it's going to change .. we live in a Democracy, and within the limits imposed, they are free to do as they please ..

Folks, whether you believe it or not, we are living in the Golden Age of the PV .. that's what History is telling us .. it is inevitable and certain that consolidation / regulation of some sort / Corporate Take Over will happen .. you don't grow an Industry from nothing to a Billion $ a year in a short time and not attract attention .. with even more substantial growth predicted ..

Please cite one provable example in the last 20 years where Government as a whole has manipulated the facts to protect a large Corporation .. not some rogue Senator / Congressman / or Government Employee .. just one provable example ..

Another example is the 9/11 attacks. I firmly believe that foreign terrorist groups did fly planes into the buildings, but the buildings were designed to handle multiple aircraft impacts without falling. They official investigation also makes no mention of the fact that the buildings fell at the speed of gravity into their own footprint. They also did not investigate the presence of molten steel in the wreckage found days after the attack, or the collapse of building 7 at 5pm later that day.

Im expecting some flame for this one lol, but the official report and the verifiable points i mentioned simply do not mesh in the slightest.

 

[DC2]

If the FDA regulations remove free-roaming nicotine base from the market, then refilling goes the way of the dodo bird.
And if that happens, then cigalikes will be the only feasible option for the vast majority of the marketplace.

This would put pretty much hand the entire electronic cigarette market over to Big Tobacco.
So this is clearly what I expect to happen.

Hope I'm wrong though.

 

[DRock]

If the FDA regulations remove free-roaming nicotine base from the market, then refilling goes the way of the dodo bird.
And if that happens, then cigalikes will be the only feasible option for the vast majority of the marketplace.

This would put pretty much hand the entire electronic cigarette market over to Big Tobacco.
So this is clearly what I expect to happen.

Hope I'm wrong though.

I better stock up now even though I dont make my own juice yet.

 

[NicoHolic]

I remember the days when ultralight aircraft were all over this country. Anyone could order and assemble one, and even teach themselves to fly, all without licensing and registration. Then came FAR Part 103, Light Sport Aircraft registration for two seat trainers, and so on. You don't see many around these days. That may be the future of e-cigarettes.

 

[Scootaloo]

I don’t imagine BT are trying to make a crap E-cig: why would a company pour money into selling a product that’s deliberately crap? That’s not very logical if you ask me.

As for the product it’s self: it’s just another crap E-cig that will get people to at least perhaps start vaping or get interested and find out so I’d say we have nothing to worry about.

 

[Penn]

the Business of Business is Business .. a corporation will use what tools it has available to sway, manipulate and create what is in their best interest .. it has always been so, and I doubt it's going to change .. we live in a Democracy, and within the limits imposed, they are free to do as they please ..

Folks, whether you believe it or not, we are living in the Golden Age of the PV .. that's what History is telling us .. it is inevitable and certain that consolidation / regulation of some sort / Corporate Take Over will happen .. you don't grow an Industry from nothing to a Billion $ a year in a short time and not attract attention .. with even more substantial growth predicted ..

Please cite one provable example in the last 20 years where Government as a whole has manipulated the facts to protect a large Corporation .. not some rogue Senator / Congressman / or Government Employee .. just one provable example ..

I may have been overstating the devious acts of our government a bit, however it is my belief that this has happened and will continue to happen.

One big one that comes to mind though is the lie about WMD's in Iraq, from which the corporate weapon makers profited handsomely. think about how much a drone costs to make, with all the electronics that go into them. Predator missiles too. How many of those did we/do we use again?

If they can lie about the prime motive to use military force on a large scale in a foreign country, I feel like they potentially could lie about something such as electronic cigarette safety. Again, this is just an opinion.

Not the place for some of this but I will say 2 things.

In relation to the WMD's - George Piro

Second - Do you really think a tall building would be designed without regard to the fact the worst possible thing to happen would be for it to fall over with other buildings nearby? I could go into great detail on why the tinfoil hats should just leave that alone.

The government has no desire to protect big tobacco.

 

[Uncle Willie]

The government has no desire to protect big tobacco.

Bingo ....

 

[DC2]

Big Pharma has significant reasons to protect Big Tobacco, and the FDA has significant reasons to protect Big Pharma.

 

[Caridwen]

Please try to stay on topic for thread to remain here.

WMD and 9/11, etc. - post in Outside.

 

[DC2]

According to Bill Godshall, the FSPTCA was negotiated by Phillip Morris and Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cts-might-not-become-reality.html#post8869912

And Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids (CTFK) was created by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation with $90,000,000 in seed money.

The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation is Big Pharma.
And the FSPTCA is where the FDA deeming regulations will come from.

Tinfoil hats optional.

 

[Penn]

According to Bill Godshall, the FSPTCA was negotiated by Phillip Morris and Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cts-might-not-become-reality.html#post8869912

And Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids (CTFK) was created by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation with $90,000,000 in seed money.

The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation is Big Pharma.
And the FSPTCA is where the FDA deeming regulations will come from.

Tinfoil hats optional.

How can a person not see this is an example of big tobacco bending to the will of the other 2 and not the other way around or collusion?