Another e-cig company merges with big tobacco

[Robino1]

Money is in things that need replacing, and often. Prefilled cartridges are the one thing that will fit that profile perfectly.
My thoughts on what will be in the future if BT get their way: prefilled cartridges sold in packs very similar to cigarette packs. You will have the option of buying a carton. You will be able to get these at the same places you currently are able to buy cigarettes. You will spend the same amount or slightly less on these products as you do on cigarettes.

It's all about money. buy up the product that has the most replaceable products attached then create bills that will eliminate the competition.

 

[exnihilo]

Can't wait to see what BT puts in our juice!

:sarcasm:

cg

 

[Ravensfan]

It still just kills me when people say that they wouldn't mind some regulation so they know their juice isn't made in a dirty basement. First off there is no such thing as "some regulation". Secondly, why not let the free market work? Juice makers are in it to make money. They wouldn't be making very much if their juice got people sick. If you think BT wants to be selling juice in a bottle that some kid could accidentally drink and die from, then you have another thing coming. They want to sell sealed (under the guise of safety, but really so you can't refill them) pre-fellied cartos, or disposables. BT isn't looking at this as a smoking cessation device. They are looking for a new market. Whether it be smokers who want a safer alternative, smokers who want to be able to smoke in more places, or non-smokers who won't try cigarettes because of the negative connotation associated with them. There is also more profit in e-cigs than their are analogs. Analogs don't cost 7 bucks a pack because of BT. Most of that is taxes. E-cigs will not be taxed at that rate, so BT can charge more and still promote a cost savings.

 

[Drael]

Money is in things that need replacing, and often. Prefilled cartridges are the one thing that will fit that profile perfectly.

The government makes alot more money of tobacco than the tobacco companies. Take away govt tax is like 99%, so no need at all to charge similar prices to tobacco. BT will be happy just to have government agencies off their back, and be free of taxes that no other industry would even tolerate.

Second theres no real reason to force people to use pre-filled cartos, as most people will use them anyway, by default. The vast majority of e-cig users will use store brought ready to vape, cig-a-like combos with pre-filled cartos - that doesn't need to be forced, it already is.

People that refuse to do this, want more, insist for example on a basic ego VV, or a re-fill liquid? If its not provided as an option, people will lose customers to a competitor. Remember, these products have to be competitive too. Thats why all of us here on the forum, no longer use corner store products, because of the thread incompatibility, low vapour production, low battery life, lack of re-fills - they wouldnt cut the mustard.

Economic competition is just as true for the BT players as it is for us. Fortunately for them, most of the market is happy with pre-fills, they can think of us re-fillers as similar to "roll your own" smokers.

This is why I think the ultimate BT set-up will be vaguely like smokeless image's model (perhaps crossed with the e-roll) - low end off the shelf easy stuff, cig-a-likes with pre-filled cartos and a nifty PCC, mid range ego style with VV (twist) and higher end refill liquids flavours- but nothing in the high end for the device (no vamo etc). That is where the mainstream market ends, the high end, advanced PVs, that is the niche market.

The rest is all relatively mainstream, and theres nothing niche about re-fill liquids - lots of people are going to quickly figure out that pre-filled is expensive, just like pre-rolled tobacco was.

 

[Ravensfan]

The government makes alot more money of tobacco than the tobacco companies. Take away govt tax is like 99%, so no need at all to charge similar prices to tobacco. BT will be happy just to have government agencies off their back, and be free of taxes that no other industry would even tolerate.

Second theres no real reason to force people to use pre-filled cartos, as most people will use them anyway, by default. The vast majority of e-cig users will use store brought ready to vape, cig-a-like combos with pre-filled cartos - that doesn't need to be forced, it already is.

People that refuse to do this, want more, insist for example on a basic ego VV, or a re-fill liquid? If its not provided as an option, people will lose customers to a competitor. Remember, these products have to be competitive too. Thats why all of us here on the forum, no longer use corner store products, because of the thread incompatibility, low vapour production, low battery life, lack of re-fills.

Economic competition is just as true for the BT players as it is for us. Fortunately for them, most of the market is happy with pre-fills, they can think of us re-fillers as similar to "roll your own" smokers.

This is why I think the ultimate BT set-up is vaguely like smokeless image's model - low end off the shelf easy stuff, cig-a-likes with pre-filled cartos and a nifty PCC, mid range ego style with VV (twist) and higher end refill liquids flavours- but nothing in the high end for the device (no vamo etc). That is where the mainstream market ends, the high end, advanced PVs, that is the niche market. The rest is all relatively mainstream, and theres nothing niche about re-fill liquids - lots of people are going to quickly figure out that pre-filled is expensive, just like pre-rolled tobacco was.

BT has the money and political connections to eliminate their competition through government regulation. Those of us that use mods and juice are where most people end up that start with Blu or some other pre-filled system, because that experience sucks. Check out Blu's facebook page. half the post are them apologizing to someone that got some crummy cartos and the other half are them scolding people for saying they quit smoking using their product.

I just do not see BT taking the risk and getting into the open container juice business. There is a thread on this front page with a humorous story about a guy mistakingly thinking his e-juice was an eye drop. Not that he is looking to sue over his own error, but many people would. Johnny Juicemaker, LLC would just fold up shop and you would never see him again, but RJ Reynolds can't do that.

 

[DC2]

The government makes alot more money of tobacco than the tobacco companies. Take away govt tax is like 99%, so no need at all to charge similar prices to tobacco. BT will be happy just to have government agencies off their back, and be free of taxes that no other industry would even tolerate.

Second theres no real reason to force people to use pre-filled cartos, as most people will use them anyway, by default. The vast majority of e-cig users will use store brought ready to vape, cig-a-like combos with pre-filled cartos - that doesn't need to be forced, it already is.

People that refuse to do this, want more, insist for example on a basic ego VV, or a re-fill liquid? If its not provided as an option, people will lose customers to a competitor. Remember, these products have to be competitive too. Thats why all of us here on the forum, no longer use corner store products, because of the thread incompatibility, low vapour production, low battery life, lack of re-fills - they wouldnt cut the mustard.

Economic competition is just as true for the BT players as it is for us. Fortunately for them, most of the market is happy with pre-fills, they can think of us re-fillers as similar to "roll your own" smokers.

This is why I think the ultimate BT set-up will be vaguely like smokeless image's model (perhaps crossed with the e-roll) - low end off the shelf easy stuff, cig-a-likes with pre-filled cartos and a nifty PCC, mid range ego style with VV (twist) and higher end refill liquids flavours- but nothing in the high end for the device (no vamo etc). That is where the mainstream market ends, the high end, advanced PVs, that is the niche market.

The rest is all relatively mainstream, and theres nothing niche about re-fill liquids - lots of people are going to quickly figure out that pre-filled is expensive, just like pre-rolled tobacco was.

It seems to me that this is exactly what SHOULD happen.
But SHOULD and WILL are two different things.

 

[Vapor Vinny]

Money is in things that need replacing, and often. Prefilled cartridges are the one thing that will fit that profile perfectly.
My thoughts on what will be in the future if BT get their way: prefilled cartridges sold in packs very similar to cigarette packs. You will have the option of buying a carton. You will be able to get these at the same places you currently are able to buy cigarettes. You will spend the same amount or slightly less on these products as you do on cigarettes.

It's all about money. Buy up the product that has the most replaceable products attached then create bills that will eliminate the competition.

This is what I fear. So many on this board are ascribing honest, purely health related intentions to the FDA. That is a mistake. You can debate those things as it relates to regulation, but you're wasting your time. It is all about money. BT isn't going to help create an ecig market unless they can get the 5$ to $10 a day they currently get from each smoker. Why would they market a product that helps people stop smoking so they can sell them that product for less (profit)? It's dollars a day (per smoker) that matters to them. Not necessarily profit margin.

In addition, the federal government isn't going to help the future of a product that is going to cost them billions in tax revenue. Unless and until they can regulate that product to the extent that they do not lose that revenue.

Ecigs, in their current state, = less money for the federal government and less money for BT. No matter how you look at it. They can only exist if that problem rectifies itself. Accept that, OR, fight the battle that you should have been fighting all along. The same battle I fought when I helped organize the very first TEA party, only to be called a right-wing nut job by many of the same politicians that are cramming these unbearable taxes and regulations down your throat.

I know it's uncomfortable for many, but the battle really is much bigger than just ecigs.

 

[Vapor Vinny]

"If having a niche market of high-end users can help push more people to get started using electronic cigarettes, it could help Big Tobacco.

We all know that first-time users want something that is as close to a cigarette as possible.
And if we can convince more people to become first time users, we could very well be helping Big Tobacco grow their market.

I hope this is true, and I further hope that if it is true that they can be made to understand this."


Or, our federal government can act in the best interests of its citizens and enact limited regulations that do not crush the free market. That's what we need to be demanding in no uncertain terms.

 

[Ravensfan]

"If having a niche market of high-end users can help push more people to get started using electronic cigarettes, it could help Big Tobacco.

We all know that first-time users want something that is as close to a cigarette as possible.
And if we can convince more people to become first time users, we could very well be helping Big Tobacco grow their market.

I hope this is true, and I further hope that if it is true that they can be made to understand this."


Or, our federal government can act in the best interests of its citizens and enact limited regulations that do not crush the free market. That's what we need to be demanding in no uncertain terms.

I'm sure BT has folks that read these forums. They see all of the posts about people falling off the wagon and buying a pack of analogs because they ran out of juice. They see all of the posts with people saying they would go back to analogs if e-cigs were banned. BT wants their cake and eat it too. They will pick up new users with their version of vaping, and for those that aren't happy with what they offer they will gladly sell you a good old fashioned pack of cigarettes in a box or soft pack, 100 or King. Welcome back.

The federal government will never act in the best interest of the people because the people cannot give them a return on the millions of dollars our elected officials invest on getting a job that pays 174K a year. Only corporate America can provide that return. Our government is a puppet for corporations. That is what is wrong with this country.

 

[Vapor Vinny]

It's amazing that a bunch of nincompoops like us have managed to govern ourselves in this area for the last 4 years. Aside from the occasional idiot who blew his own teeth out with a homemade mod, and the fella who used his eliquid as eye drops, we've done quite well.

How on earth did we live without these upcoming regulations and taxations? Just lucky I guess.

 

[Ferrel1134]

Gee I'm not supposed to drink my juice. But really it's called juice. I need Uncle Sam to tell me what to do. I'm so lost.

 

[Ravensfan]

Gee I'm not supposed to drink my juice. But really it's called juice. I need Uncle Sam to tell me what to do. I'm so lost.

It does seem like common sense. Just like it's common sense not to drink drain cleaner, bleach, etc.., and you should probably keep that stuff away from kids, but all of those products have warnings all over their packaging warning people of things that should be obvious. Serious vapers are of the benefit of being a close knit community dominated by small businesses. Even if you were enough of an ...... to sue "Vapors Knoll" after you left an open bottle on the coffee table and your kid drank it, your case wouldn't get far. It would be tough to find an attorney to take it when he sees that Vapor's Knoll is a business owned by a couple of guys that are making their juice in the back of a somewhat dilapidated 300 sq. foot shop next to an equally dilapidated Chinese restaurant. The attorney would see that the guys at Vapor's Knoll couldn't afford to pay you millions, and even if he won they would just close up shop and file bankruptcy. Now if you left a bottle of Phillip Morris Marlboro juice open on the table then you have an entirely different story.

For the record, I'm not picking on Vapor's Knoll. They are my favorite juice supplier. Their shop just happens to be close to me and I know what it looks like. I'm no more paranoid about buying juice from that shop than I am buying Chinese food from the restaurant next door. I like the fact that those guys are making a go at working for themselves and are doing quite well with it. I'd hate to see that go away.

 

[flintlock62]

I very much mind taxation. We're being taxed into the poor house. I used to buy RYO tobacco until BT lobbied for tax increases. After the new taxes, RYO was just as expensive a buying a pack of cigarettes. Control, control, control, that's what the gubbment and big business wants. There's nothing we little pee-on's can do about it besides having another Boston Tea Party.

I don't mind regulation and taxation.

There is no sense in fighting it. It's an impending event. One party wants vaping to be safe. Another party wants their share of monies. It's human nature.

This will eventually be the price to pay, hopefully. In my mind, that would be the best case scenario. Why? . . . I do not want to fine myself in some dark alley buying e juice and/or e juice DIY supplies.

As long as Vaping is recognized as an alternate method of harm reduction to smoking, I trust that we can all get along.


- Andy . . . Challenge the day.

 

[CES]

I'm not thrilled with taxation- but think it's likely inevitable, and the best that we're likely to get is taxation at a lower level than combustible cigs. I'll join in the fight against it, but i can understand people saying that maybe some of the new bills popping up in some states aren't such a bad thing, and staying quiet.

But limits to online sales and purchase are embedded in some of the new legislation sponsored by RJR. That's something we all need to fight- no matter anyone's thoughts on the desirability/inevitability of regulation/taxation.

 

[CES]

double post...sigh...

 

[DC2]

Double post, but it was well worth saying twice!

 

[Vapor Vinny]

I'm not thrilled with taxation- but think it's likely inevitable, and the best that we're likely to get is taxation at a lower level than combustible cigs. I'll join in the fight against it, but i can understand people saying that maybe some of the new bills popping up in some states aren't such a bad thing, and staying quiet.

But limits to online sales and purchase are embedded in some of the new legislation sponsored by RJR. That's something we all need to fight- no matter anyone's thoughts on the desirability/inevitability of regulation/taxation.

Why would we care about online sales if the price is going to be the same, and we'll be able to buy the online product at a brick and mortar store just down the street?

I'm with you guys when it comes to keeping the availability of online sales and products as they exist today, I just don't think that's going to be possible and the reason I think that is because it's about money. I think we're naive to think that after all the years and battles fought by big tobacco, just to exist, that we eciggers are just going to come along and make them irrelevant. Too many people have too much money riding on the sale of cigarettes for that to happen. I wish I had an answer, but I don't.

Our own President, as part of his latest "budget" proposal, wants to fund universal pre-school. with an additional .94 tax on cigarettes. Yeah, that's absurd. But it's for the children you know, and it has to be paid for. Maybe we should all quit being so greedy and accept the demise of the free market, accept our burden, and just go along with paying outrageous prices for an inferior product. So "our children" can get their learn on, grow up to civil servants, and have 75% of their wages taken to keep feeding "the beast".

 

[CES]

so, my opposition to limits on online sales and purchase is because i like having a larger number of options. Even accepting your assumption that the prices will be the same (currently they're not) we have a good local vape shop- with a reasonable variety- but not nearly as wide a variety as what i can get online.

And even if it is inevitable, I'd prefer to fight for as much as we can get, even if it isn't everything we want

 

[kristin]

so, my opposition to limits on online sales and purchase is because i like having a larger number of options. Even accepting your assumption that the prices will be the same (currently they're not) we have a good local vape shop- with a reasonable variety- but not nearly as wide a variety as what i can get online.

And even if it is inevitable, I'd prefer to fight for as much as we can get, even if it isn't everything we want

I live in a small town an hour away from a medium-sized city that has no vape shops and about 3 hours from the nearest large city with only a couple of vape shops. The only e-cigs sold in my town are blu and some off brand sold at Walgreens. My Walmart doesn't even carry them. I need online sales.

 

[Vapor Vinny]

so, my opposition to limits on online sales and purchase is because i like having a larger number of options. Even accepting your assumption that the prices will be the same (currently they're not) we have a good local vape shop- with a reasonable variety- but not nearly as wide a variety as what i can get online.

And even if it is inevitable, I'd prefer to fight for as much as we can get, even if it isn't everything we want

Sorry, there's was a great amount of sarcasm in my post. We don't disagree on the end game. I just happen to believe that the factors that are motivating the powers that be are not what we're necessarily debating, or fighting.