Clones and the lanham act

[PLANofMAN]

2 very mature and realistic responses. Zen also will perform an upgrade of the knock off dna boards with an authentic in these devices, which is cool.

Same thing happened in the music equipment industry in the 1970s and 1980s. The big players, Fender and Gibson were being cloned left and right by the Japanese. They may have been losing a small amount of sales, but most likely, not much, since the reason people were buying the knock offs was that many could not afford the real deal..and they realized that these clones would get people playing guitar that may not otherwise have done so. In response to that, and seeing that there was a huge market in their designs, but at a lower price point, created their own "budget minded alternatives", and create the "Squier by Fender" and "Epiphone, by Gibson" lines of guitars (yes, the Epiphone name was older than this, and at one time was a high end mfr themselves, but through acquisition, at this point in time, it was just a name that was owned by Gibson). Granted many of the smaller vape related designers can't afford the luxury of having authorized clones, I believe we will start to see more of it eventually.

It's already happening. See the Erlkonigin and it's budget minded alternative, the Erlprinz. Unfortunately for the Erlprinz, it had serious issues at launch, with about two of every three sold having serious defects. Also at pretty much the same time, actual Erlkonigin high quality clones hit the market. Lots of authentic spare parts being sold these days...

 

[Marshalljt]

I always find it funny how cluless some people are on buisness. Sure some manufacturers are making huge profits on the metal tubes but its not like they design the switches and topcaps over night. Then they have to market thier product etc. Comparing a clone mod to real one is well pointless. Quality of materials, workmanship etc is not the same at all. With that being said i think some manufacturers do have overly inflated prices but then i just choose not purchase them. I am not running to ft to purchase a poorly made copy either. And yes i have purchased some clones because i was currious how they compared to the originals. In every case the clones were garbage. initial performance was good but they didnt last long. Cloned attys have never come close to the originals. At the end of the day people are going to buy whatever they feel comfortable with. I am personally sticking to the original manufacturers which is just my personal choice.

 

[DaveSignal]

I always find it funny how cluless some people are on buisness. Sure some manufacturers are making huge profits on the metal tubes but its not like they design the switches and topcaps over night. Then they have to market thier product etc. Comparing a clone mod to real one is well pointless. Quality of materials, workmanship etc is not the same at all. With that being said i think some manufacturers do have overly inflated prices but then i just choose not purchase them. I am not running to ft to purchase a poorly made copy either. And yes i have purchased some clones because i was currious how they compared to the originals. In every case the clones were garbage. initial performance was good but they didnt last long. Cloned attys have never come close to the originals. At the end of the day people are going to buy whatever they feel comfortable with. I am personally sticking to the original manufacturers which is just my personal choice.

Except in some cases where the clone is better than the authentic version, such as the plume veil 1.5 (authentic is garbage), or the vapetech pegasus (better engravings and performance than original pegasus). And many cases where the clone is identical in both aesthetics and performance.

I own many authentic devices and many clones. I am not always specifically looking for a clone. I want a device that performs well, has a classy engraving, and looks great. If I go to one of my local B&M vape shops and I see something and try something I like and it is in my price range, I will probably buy it, whether it is a clone or not. But a large majority of devices at the local B&M vape shops are clones, because that is what sells. I am not going to find something I like and then start scouring the interwebs looking for whatever mod at a price I can afford at a place it is in stock. Nor am I going to be hunting mod makers down on Facebook to find an authentic version. I am just going to pick up what works, appeals to me, and is readily available.

You are right in that there are many bad clones. There are more bad clones than bad authentics, that is certain. But reviews of particular clones are often easy to find, and allow the buyer to know exactly what to expect with what they are getting.

 

[PLANofMAN]

https://www.fasttech.com/products/1980900
And then there is this. The Aqua V2, it's not a clone...but not an authentic either.

This comes from the manufacturer of the authentic atomizer, but is not sold by Footoon. Per FaceBook, they denied that it was authentic, but didn't deny that it came from the same factory as the authentic.
I consider this an authentic item, sold at clone prices. So, is it moral and ethical to buy this? I don't know, but I bought one. It will look great on the PAPS.

From Sufie (FastTech staff member)

Product title changed from "Authentic" to "OEM"
Dear valued customer,

As you may have noticed, the product title for this item SKU 1980900 has been changed from "Authentic" to "OEM", we would like to explain the scene behind this change.

The authentic one from Footoon is manufactured by a Chinese OEM(Original equipment manufacturer) factory. This item SKU 1980900 is manufactured by the same factory.

In order to avoid legal issues, we have asked the manufacturer to print something different on its packaging box, that is the triangle mark on its top left corner, which the authentic one doesn't have.

After further reflection, we decided to change the product title from "authentic" to "OEM" which better suits the actual product.

We will contact the affected customers for this. If you prefer to have a refund, please open a ticket and we will process it for you in 24 working hours.

Thank you for your understanding.

And from Geek

For the record, this product is made by the same production line in the exact factory that made the $100+ "Authentic" Aqua.

Problem is, the factory is not authorized to use the packaging so the product can't come with its "original" box. Since calling this authentic won't be 100% true without the same packaging, the name got changed to OEM.

We assure you that the product is made from the original production line and this is not simply a so-called "1:1".

As a matter of fact, I believe there is no such thing as 1:1. Clones from China are almost always guaranteed to be slightly "off".

 

[chargingcharlie]

We see similar things happen in the RC hobby, too. What you need to be carful about, though, is that the ones that are coming from the same factory are usually the ones that the authentic company rejected. Sometimes it's just a cosmetic flaw, but it's often because they caught the manufacturer cutting corners and/or using different materials. A lot of RC guys that I know who buy the cheap clones have a lot of issues with pats breaking and motors burning up. They say "I paid so little for this that I'll just buy a new on". I look at it as a waste of time and material. Just buy right the first time and you'll be more happy in the long run. What concerns me more in the vaping community is that now where talking about a product that is held next to your face that you are inhaling vapor from. It's just not a risk I'm willingbto take. If that means that I stay out of the mod world then I'm fine with that. I'm not into huge clouds anyway...I'm just into a nice flavor, a little nic, and a nice product that gives me something to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bostoncloud]

https://www.fasttech.com/products/1980900
And then there is this. The Aqua V2, it's not a clone...but not an authentic either.

This comes from the manufacturer of the authentic atomizer, but is not sold by Footoon. Per FaceBook, they denied that it was authentic, but didn't deny that it came from the same factory as the authentic.
I consider this an authentic item, sold at clone prices. So, is it moral and ethical to buy this? I don't know, but I bought one. It will look great on the PAPS.

From Sufie (FastTech staff member)

And from Geek

What you say here is exactly my point about the intellectual property theft going on with the clones. You're not wrong to buy one IMHO. We are the end users and have our own responsibilities, rent to pay mouths to feed. If something out there is the same, it is not my responsibility as a consumer or even a good citizen to support someone else's private business. It's up the the authentic brand owner to protect his own turf. (That said, I like to pay for domestic manufacturing to keep people at work - job you save may be your own - all that.)

This problem you describe used to happen years ago with luxury watches and cigarette lighters once the big brands started producing in Hong Kong and other parts of Aisa. The factory would simply do an extra run at the end of the day to be sold on the black market. Today mod and atty clones are the same. It's just what the Lanham Act would prevent if the authentic makers were to get on the stick but they don't seem to know much at all about how the clout the law gives them. And advertising as a "clone" or "replica" doesn't matter because it still injures the authentic maker. "Here's a clone. A perfect copy. It's just the same, even made in the same factory. Half the price and just as good." There's no way for the authentic brand to compete with that when foreign labor works for 26 cents an hour.

Today I was on line looking for authentic mods and attys to buy as Christmas presents for my vaping fiend friends. I saw a couple of major sellers offering "Patriot Atomizers (Clone)" - pure rip offs of the genuine article, down to the same brand markings. I have two real ones from innovape (very nice huge fog) and think they're great. Innovape - I believe - should be all over this.

If you design, manufacture, trademark, copyright and market something of your own, the law protects you from someone stealing your ideas and hard work and the good will and brand loyalty you developed. It's an ordinary way of rewarding and encouraging economic incentives for creativity. Stealing intellectual property is fairly anti-social behavior, about as much as ransacking someone's house and taking his valuables. (Sure, things become public domain, patents expire, etc.) If someone wants to make a competing product, fine, let him go through the same process of creativity and enterprise, not leach off someone else and run him out of business using cheap foreign labor and unfair business practices. I have seen Lanham Act civil and criminal suits in action first hand several times, how European luxury goods marques have been able to use specialized private investigators and get special consideration from DOJ to have federal prosecutors assigned to prosecute counterfeit goods resellers. The resellers end up in federal prison camps. The luxury goods makers take the resellers's criminally-forfeited cars and bank accounts and sometimes even their real estate. It's a harsh and unusual legal backwater that few people know about. I'm just surprised these guys don't learn to use the tools the law gives them to protect their turf.

Well, I said my piece (again). Not the biggest problem in the world and I don't mean to criticize anyone except maybe the clone business.

 

[bostoncloud]

Well, no one "rips off a country", be it China, the US, or any other. People rip off specific manufacturers/products. So, if an Innokin or Joye product is ripped off you should feel just as badly about that as a Provape or Evolv product being ripped of. If you feel bad about originals being copied that is.

Just to say, China has a whole governmental ministry devoted to undermining the industries of other countries. It targets emerging industries and technologies and essentially bribes the CEO's and founders of new companies to move their manufacturing to China by offering free research and development and start up production expenses allowing the American owners to keep their own money (instead of giving them brown papers bags of hundred dollar bills). An example of a high tech company whose executive took Chinese money to sell out her country is Christine Lampe Onnerud, owner of Boston Power, the company that developed the technology to make electric cars feasible - e.g., Chevy Volt. See her two-page interview entitled "Why Boston Power Went to China" in MIT Technology Review from Dec 6, 2011. The whole company lock, stock, barrel and - worst of all - R&D went to China. This happens on a broad scale in other countries like Taiwan where Taiwanese businessmen are even recruited into the organs of the Chinese so-called Communist Party with a web of bribes, special privileges, protection from local law and shady deals. See the Reuters Nov 26, 2014 website article entitled "Special Report/ How China's shadowy agency is working to Absorb Taiwan | Reuters". The leader of this official organization is Triad who served ten years in United States Prisons for conspiracy to import/distribute narcotics. Vaping and clones are small potatoes but they are endemic, part of a larger picture of shady and often illegal national policies designed to undermine competing economies.

 

[towelie]

Maybe if they stop being greedy and sell their products at a reasonable price, people would stop buying clones.

Now you have metal tubes with nothing original on them ( apart of some engravings) going for 400$ +, and attys for 120$.

For me it's simple math, with the price of 1 original atty and mod, I would buy 4 full setups a but load of battery's and enough juice for years.

I never supported, and I will never support greedy people

How do you figure that a cloner is not greedy? Arent they turning a profit? Just so ya know a $40 clone is worth 246.12 Yuan.

 

[PLANofMAN]

How do you figure that a cloner is not greedy? Arent they turning a profit? Just so ya know a $40 clone is worth 246.12 Yuan.

To put this in an understandable perspective, the cost of a Big Mac in China is about 14.7 RMB. The average McDonald's employee in China is about 5.8 RMB.
I imagine machinists are paid more, and the equipment is certainly expensive as well, so the profit margins might not be as high as one would expect. Especially when you factor in the cost of materials. Copper, brass and stainless are not exactly "cheap."

I imagine they go for quantity of sales with a slim profit margin, whereas in the "authentic" vape industry, the reverse is usually the case, limited sales with a moderate to large profit margin.

Most vape start ups don't have the operating capital to do 100,000 piece runs of a mod or atty.

 

[hyojah]

Honestly, a lot of the most cloned mods are usually limited production or sold out past the manufacturing rate the original company can handle. Not only this, but let's be honest, most mods are incredibly easy to clone, other than aesthetic details, they're all the same thing- metal tubes with a switch. Other than something like a Poldiac, which is really hard to clone perfectly (all the Poldiac clones are trash, they can't get the switch right), they can be done so easily, with almost exact 1:1 production. I still buy some authentic mods, because I like the novelty of it, but honestly a lot of the clones out there are pretty much equal to their authentic counterparts. A lot of people can't afford the $150-250 price tag on some of these mech mods, the materials used for these mods are usually in the ballpark of $15-50, they're charging $100-170 for R&D. I fully support innovation and R&D funding but the raw material cost to retail price ratio for these mech mods are really out of wack. All the "authentic" mods are just copying each other's innovations anyway, once one mod comes out with magnetic switches, slowly every other mods begins to adopt magnetic switches, once one mod begins to come out with locking rings, slowly every other mod begins to adopt the locking rings.

I usually buy authentic mods and cloned RDA/RTA, but on occasion I see nothing wrong with buying a cloned Stingray X or something like that. It's not like I can even get a real Stingray X anyway, they're completely sold out.

 

[Tonythefiddler]

So, lets take a current cig smoker, who egos/cigalikes dont do it for them. They also dont have a nice job and cant afford to drop 300+ on an authentic setup, or cant get ahold of one because they sold out instantly. Would you rather they just keep smoking because they arent privleged enough to afford the authentics? Part of what it comes down to is which is more important, lining the pockets of authentic makers or getting more people to get off the cigarettes

 

[skoony]

So, lets take a current cig smoker, who egos/cigalikes dont do it for them. They also dont have a nice job and cant afford to drop 300+ on an authentic setup, or cant get ahold of one because they sold out instantly. Would you rather they just keep smoking because they arent privleged enough to afford the authentics? Part of what it comes down to is which is more important, lining the pockets of authentic makers or getting more people to get off the cigarettes

how about stick with the ego's until they save up some money?
show a little self control. if one can't afford the Porsche,whats wrong
with the Chevy Nova?
regards
mike

 

[DaveSignal]

how about stick with the ego's until they save up some money?
show a little self control. if one can't afford the Porsche,whats wrong
with the Chevy Nova?
regards
mike

Most people who want to upgrade their ego are going to go to the local vapor shop, possibly try something out, and make a purchase. Most people don't know the difference and will not spend time researching and scouring the inventories of multiple shops and online vendors. They are going to buy what is there. And, at least in my town, all of the local B&M shops sell clones only. Why? Because that is what sells.

The solution to this is not to make vapors feel guilty for getting a good deal on items that are readily available to them. The outcome of the massive proliferation of clones can only be changed by changing the supply. If someone is manufacturing it and local vape shops are selling it at reasonable prices, people are going to buy it.