Clones and the lanham act

[bostoncloud]

The number and volume of clones in vaping is amazing and sad. You'd think new start ups wouldn't even bother. Why invest in designing and manufacturing to make great new mods and atomizers when they're going to get cloned in China and sold for a fraction of the price? The resellers get a better profit margin from the clones made at such low, low cost. There's some serious intellectual property theft going on.

People think it's legal to sell a clone if the seller tells the buyer it's a clone. It's not. Saying it's a clone and even things like changing the name of the manufacturer or making small logo or design changes are not enough either. These are big Lanham Act violations. The manufacturer could go after the clone makers and the state-side resellers for damages and fees and even expenses like private investigators. And there's worse than the civil suit problems. DOJ has a special department in Washington that brings criminal prosecutions against importers and resellers of counterfeit goods and gets serious prison sentences (I kid you not) and forfeitures. They're not there just for counterfeit pharmaceuticals and pirated Microsoft software and Sony music. They go with gusto after little guys like the ones selling Louis Vuitton-marked i phone covers from carts in shopping malls and cheap hand bags at flea markets and treat them just like drug traffickers.

I buy direct from the US manufacturer and not the clones. I also buy some of the foreign brands too. But really the innovations like the attys for sub ohming and the new high wattage mods and chips being designed and made here are great but the people doing it are getting the shaft. Where are the guys like the Penny mod (Mad Industries) and Patriot manufacturers (Innovape) - to name a couple? (There are Patriot marked clones with logo being sold everywhere advertised as made by Tobeco (a big company with a presence and assets here). TUS manufacturers could be doing something serious about it - easy to do - but they aren't. Strange and kind of depressing when you see so many people out of work.

 

[FearTX]

As a copyright, trademark, patent or any of this other stuff your "property" is worth nothing unless you defend it.

There is some sense in not defending it, at the rate this technology is evolving why spend a ton of money defending a design that is going to be outdated before you ever get a court date to defend your design?

I do not know of any clones putting anyone out of business, most of the modmakers cannot keep up with the demand for authentics much less supply enough so the people buying clones can get them.
I am not defending clones, just stating a few points, I prefer myself to support authentics.

 

[bostoncloud]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but if the US mod and atty makers defended their space, they could have the business that the clones are getting illegally and would be able to sell at lower prices and spend more on development of their businesses. To my mind, this is just another symptom of accepting outsourcing as a fact of life when that is not necessarily so.

The tech is changing but it isn't changing so fast that people should abandon a valuable trademark to predation. The Lanham Act has big incentives to bring suit. The suit is not just free, a business can profit doing it. The statute is designed that way. The government does most of the work for the manufacturer/trade-mark holder, having the court order restitution as part of the criminal judgment and sentence. These clone makers are good targets too - they can't just hide somewhere in China if they're doing business here, just got to find their warehouses and accounts (government does that).

If Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessy defends its trademarks down to the level of a shopping mall push cart selling rubber i phone covers with "LV" printed on them - and it it has federal prosecutors running after people all time - then there's a lesson to be learned. LVMH doesn't do anything if it doesn't make money.

I can understand why people buy the clones of course. How can you blame a guy who needs to buy stuff for the baby and fix the roof when he gets a clone that's almost identical for a quarter of the price? But if the US manufacturers could get the volume, their prices would go down to competitive levels.

 

[Izan]

Welcome!!

Thank you mate!,
Very entertaining... I needed the laugh.

Cheers
I

 

[skoony]

i believe part of the problem is this market is still relatively new.
there is still a sense of community and comradeship.
people wanting to help and making a buck doing it.
of course a total lack of business acumen hurts a lot too.
taken with the attitude of young people who can't or won't
comply with once accepted norms we have have the situation we have now.
the groupon attitude of i can't afford it but still deserve it because it just a mettle tube
and battery there ripping me off gripe doesn't wash with me.
i do however believe this is changing. with the explosive growth of
the industry comes maturity. as sad as it sounds people with business
experience are entering the market. in the future i am sure there will be
much more attention paid to the ethical and legal questions such as the
counterfeiting going on now.

regards
mike

 

[wheelie]

If that brings your self esteem and ego up to a higher level that you can live with yourself that is good. I will keep my money in the bank. LOL

 

[bostoncloud]

i believe part of the problem is this market is still relatively new.
there is still a sense of community and comradeship.
people wanting to help and making a buck doing it.
of course a total lack of business acumen hurts a lot too.
taken with the attitude of young people who can't or won't
comply with once accepted norms we have have the situation we have now.
the groupon attitude of i can't afford it but still deserve it because it just a mettle tube
and battery there ripping me off gripe doesn't wash with me.
i do however believe this is changing. with the explosive growth of
the industry comes maturity. as sad as it sounds people with business
experience are entering the market. in the future i am sure there will be
much more attention paid to the ethical and legal questions such as the
counterfeiting going on now.

regards
mike

Yes, it's a great new thing and the people making the stuff are good folks in a business full of promise. I couldn't be happier with vaping.... well, maybe it's not so wise since I was nicotine free for 17 years, but still I like it, makes me more alert!

 

[chargingcharlie]

Yes, it's a great new thing and the people making the stuff are good folks in a business full of promise. I couldn't be happier with vaping.... well, maybe it's not so wise since I was nicotine free for 17 years, but still I like it, makes me more alert!

Same here. I was nicotine free for 15 years and it's helping me with being alert a lot. I'll probably dial the amount back a little, but I'm liking the extra boost I get from it.

 

[Tonythefiddler]

Isn't the point of this to get people to stop smoking? Who's going to quit if the only option aside from crappy egos is some 400 dollar metal tube, that's a slightly different copy of all the other 400 dollar tubes? Make something like the REO that's innovative and hard to clone, or reduce the price to a FAIR price and there wouldn't be any need at all to make a cheaper version. And, when the authentics are constantly out of stock (meaning ALL of them sold) how are they losing any money?

 

[miroko]

Maybe if they stop being greedy and sell their products at a reasonable price, people would stop buying clones.

Now you have metal tubes with nothing original on them ( apart of some engravings) going for 400$ +, and attys for 120$.

For me it's simple math, with the price of 1 original atty and mod, I would buy 4 full setups a but load of battery's and enough juice for years.

I never supported, and I will never support greedy people

 

[chargingcharlie]

Maybe if they stop being greedy and sell their products at a reasonable price, people would stop buying clones.

Now you have metal tubes with nothing original on them ( apart of some engravings) going for 400$ +, and attys for 120$.

For me it's simple math, with the price of 1 original atty and mod, I would buy 4 full setups a but load of battery's and enough juice for years.

I never supported, and I will never support greedy people

That still doesn't make clones legal or worthy of buying. There's nothing stopping clone makers from building their own devices that are just as nice but original. The problem with clones (in any industry) is that the people who make them are, more often than not, cutting corners and using sub-par materials that can be hazardous. I see it in the RC airplane/helicopter hobby all the time. People think they are getting a steal until the product falls out of the sky and they can't get any support from the manufacturer. I personally wouldn't get a clone eCig device because I'd be too worried about toxic metals being used in the manufacturing. If it happens with a legit company you at least know who to go after.


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[roosterado]

I Still say you cannot get a Patent on a Metal Battery Tube You get a Copyright on a Logo[ which is usally a copy of a image that has been around maybe say a Century. No Patent Not Illegal. Buy the Time you Get a Patent for a Atty its an outdated model.

 

[Stownz]

They want to rush designs onto the market, without even filing a patent in 99% of the cases, what do they think will happen?
In any event, it's just a huge bunch of clones of a clone. Good luck getting a patent for a tube with a 510 connector and a switch.
My perspective is different then most, I've been vaping 6 years. I still vividly remember e-cigs were banned here in the good ole USA. The first "mech mod" I ever saw was called the Screwdriver, and I ordered it from Europe. As far as I can see, every single mechanical mod after that one was a clone with slight variations. At this point, you really have to consider who really owns the "intellectual rights" to all of these products? Ever consider China owns ALL the rights since e-cigs were first produced there? That gentleman from China produced a device that vaporized PG laced with nicotine. Every device doing the same thing with only slight changes in form factor or voltage or connector is kind of a rip off too. It was China that set me free from cigs, and a whole lot of people are cashing in on his invention.
Just food for thought when you start to think its that poor guy with a copper tube mod getting ripped off. No, China got ripped off.

 

[DaveSignal]

Some clone makers have originals too, such as the A-Mod Freakshow and the Infinite CLT... both great attys. And for mods, there are similar "original" tubes with different logos. But, as has been mentioned already, any atomizer or mech mod by any manufacter, even the "authentic" ones, are all clones of one another, to varying degrees. They all do the same thing and function the same way and have the same form factor.

 

[chargingcharlie]

I Still say you cannot get a Patent on a Metal Battery Tube You get a Copyright on a Logo[ which is usally a copy of a image that has been around maybe say a Century. No Patent Not Illegal. Buy the Time you Get a Patent for a Atty its an outdated model.

The problem isn't patent infringement. The problem is direct copies with logos and all. A logo doesn't have to copyrighted to be protected. As soon as any company uses a logo to identify its business, the logo is trademarked under common law trademarking. All the clone companies have to do is leave the logo off, make a couple small changes, and not call it by the same name. I just don't understand why they don't follow those pretty basic rules,


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[chargingcharlie]

They want to rush designs onto the market, without even filing a patent in 99% of the cases, what do they think will happen?
In any event, it's just a huge bunch of clones of a clone. Good luck getting a patent for a tube with a 510 connector and a switch.
My perspective is different then most, I've been vaping 6 years. I still vividly remember e-cigs were banned here in the good ole USA. The first "mech mod" I ever saw was called the Screwdriver, and I ordered it from Europe. As far as I can see, every single mechanical mod after that one was a clone with slight variations. At this point, you really have to consider who really owns the "intellectual rights" to all of these products? Ever consider China owns ALL the rights since e-cigs were first produced there? That gentleman from China produced a device that vaporized PG laced with nicotine. Every device doing the same thing with only slight changes in form factor or voltage or connector is kind of a rip off too. It was China that set me free from cigs, and a whole lot of people are cashing in on his invention.
Just food for thought when you start to think its that poor guy with a copper tube mod getting ripped off. No, China got ripped off.

I couldn't care less about anyone ripping off a country who blatantly rips off and clones every product known to man.


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[Stownz]

I couldn't care less about anyone ripping off a country who blatantly rips off and clones every product known to man.


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Point being they invented e-cigs. They set us free, and I personally thank them. Oh, and thanks China for that juice recipe I've ripped off to make about 30 gallons of DIY juice over the years, sure hope they don't sue me 8) and thanks for this IPV 3 I'm chucking clouds with.

 

[miroko]

I couldn't care less about anyone ripping off a country who blatantly rips off and clones every product known to man.


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Soooo, your problem isn't about clones, but with Chinese clones??????

Do you understand that they have a different culture? Clones, counterfeits etc, they see that complety different from us, to them copy a product is OK, and shows how good the product is.

Xenophobia???

 

[chargingcharlie]

Point being they invented e-cigs. They set us free, and I personally thank them. Oh, and thanks China for that juice recipe I've ripped off to make about 30 gallons of DIY juice over the years, sure hope they don't sue me 8) and thanks for this IPV 3 I'm chucking clouds with.

DIY has nothing to do with clones or ripping anyone off. I don't understand what kind of point you think your making.

Soooo, your problem isn't about clones, but with Chinese clones??????

Do you understand that they have a different culture? Clones, counterfeits etc, they see that complety different from us, to them copy a product is OK, and shows how good the product is.

Xenophobia???

The first smokeless electric cigarette was invented by Herbert Gilbert in 1963. The more modern version wasn't innovated by Hon Lik until 2003. My problem isn't only with Chinese Clones...I was saying that I don't feel bad for the Chinese when their products are cloned, because they clone everything anyway. That doesn't imply that I would by a clone of a chines product. You seem to be confusing clones with devices that are similar in design. They are completely different definitions.




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[Stownz]

The Ejuice we are vaping, DIY or premixed, is a "clone" as well. The original point of the thread was about the poor Manufacturers getting their product designs stollen. I just wanted to add another perspective to the conversation, points to ponder. When you buy juice, you buy it from someone who used a recipe they didn't invent. I got my recipe for DIY from China 6 years ago, so in the spirit of this thread, I've been vaping 10ml + a day of cloned juice. Granted, I eliminated the ingredients China used that got e-cigs originally banned here. So in a way, I "innovated" their original design.

It's easy to time warp, forget where this industry started, and just focus on the last few years. In the beginning, did you know that each China company had their own threading for their ecigs? They were trying to keep their designs proprietary. They didn't want you buying atomizers from another company and screwing it on their product! I have 15 adapters from years ago, that allowed me to use all the different types of attys on one device. "510" was not the industry standard. 510 threading was "cloned" so many times it became an industry standard. Never seen anyone stand up and complain about that form of,clone 8)