Clones and the lanham act

[chargingcharlie]

The ejuice we are vaping, DIY or premixed, is a "clone" as well. The original point of the thread was about the poor Manufacturers getting their product designs stollen. I just wanted to add another perspective to the conversation, points to ponder.

Sorry, Stowns, but you don't understand the definition of the word "clone". A "clone" is a product that is manufactured and sold as the original product it was copied from. DIY and/or premixed eJuice would only be a clone of you copied a recipe from a manufacturer, put a copy of that manufacturers label on it, and sold it. Otherwise it's nothing more than someone making a similar juice. The definition of the word "clone" in commerce requires more than just similarity in materials or ingredients.


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[KenD]

I couldn't care less about anyone ripping off a country who blatantly rips off and clones every product known to man.


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Well, no one "rips off a country", be it China, the US, or any other. People rip off specific manufacturers/products. So, if an Innokin or Joye product is ripped off you should feel just as badly about that as a Provape or Evolv product being ripped of. If you feel bad about originals being copied that is.

 

[jpargana]

DIY has nothing to do with clones or ripping anyone off. I don't understand what kind of point you think your making.



The first smokeless electric cigarette was invented by Herbert Gilbert in 1963. The more modern version wasn't innovated by Hon Lik until 2003. My problem isn't only with Chinese Clones...I was saying that I don't feel bad for the Chinese when their products are cloned, because they clone everything anyway. That doesn't imply that I would by a clone of a chines product. You seem to be confusing clones with devices that are similar in design. They are completely different definitions.




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Yes, it was, but it really never took off, did it? Tecnnology at that time - batteries, mostly - did not make it very practical by then.


Are all " more modern versions" of automobiles we have today a clone of the first mass-production car - the Ford T model? Should ALL automobile brands we have today be paying rights to the Ford company, who is still in business today?

I mean, were do we draw a line? All cars have en angine, four weels, brakes, a steering weel... it's only part of their basic design, after all. There's no way to "innovate" much further from that.

Who gets the "rights" on a simple metal tube with a switch, or on a tank with a simple electrical resistance - which can be both manufactured in our own garage with the proper tools? (It's not NASA tecnology, after all... that's the way the first MOD's appeared in the first place)

 

[edyle]

Sorry, Stowns, but you don't understand the definition of the word "clone". A "clone" is a product that is manufactured and sold as the original product it was copied from. DIY and/or premixed eJuice would only be a clone of you copied a recipe from a manufacturer, put a copy of that manufacturers label on it, and sold it. Otherwise it's nothing more than someone making a similar juice. The definition of the word "clone" in commerce requires more than just similarity in materials or ingredients.


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A product that is manufactured and sold as another product it was copied from is a counterfiet - that is distinct from a clone which is a broader term.

I'm sure you have clone spoons, hammers and screwdrivers which are not counterfiet.

 

[PLANofMAN]

Here's my thoughts on clones.

Without clones, I wouldn't know what atomizers or mods were the best for me. Seriously. Here's how the progression went for me.
I bought a clone of the brass GP PAPS (Lux v2.5) from FastTech for $16. It was such an amazing device that I bought two more and have another on order. I also bought a GP Heron clone, just to have a matched set. liked it, bought another, and have a third on order. The clone GPin springs in the Heron suck, so I bought authentic replacement springs. Huge improvement. Then I saw an authentic 18350 GP v2.5 lux on eBay with an extra 18650 tube and bought it. Then I went to VapourArt and bought some extra Lux tubes to upgrade my clones. While I was at it, I bought replacement buttons to upgrade the clones some more...then I bought a Heron tank tube, because the new clones don't come with the logo, and then I got the Lux airflow rings to pretty them up, and the 510 adapter, because the one that comes with the clones sucks, then some o-rings and more spare springs...

Over $300 in VapourArt's pocket, despite me purchasing clones and an authentic GP mod secondhand. And they got to clear out some old inventory. (For the record, I purchased the last v2.5 18650 GP Lux tube.)

A similar situation occurred when I bought a clone ZNA. It impressed me, so I bought a lot of authentic accessories for it, followed by the purchase of an authentic ZNA.

For many people, clones let us "preview" a mod or atty, without spending a lot of money on something that "someone" said was a great buy. We'll appreciate and value the authentic and use it around the house, and take the clone to work, to the bar, etc. I know that the words "free advertising" get thrown around a lot when it comes to clones, but the reality is, it's true.

If clones really did hurt the original manufacturers, and impacted sales, then Atmomixani and Svoemesto would have been gone a long time ago. The number of Nemesis and Kayfun clones is absolutely staggering, yet both of those companies have thrived and developed a huge following and have trouble keeping items in inventory.

Edit: The only people that clones hurt (in my opinion) are those who have spent a lot of money to feel like members of an "exclusive" club/group.
I'll get off the soapbox now.

 

[chargingcharlie]

Yes, it was, but it really never took off, did it? Tecnnology at that time - batteries, mostly - did not make it very practical by then.

I stopped reading after that paragraph. I didn't say the Chinese cloned his design. All I did was clarify who the inventor of the eCig was.

A product that is manufactured and sold as another product it was copied from is a counterfiet - that is distinct from a clone which is a broader term.

I'm sure you have clone spoons, hammers and screwdrivers which are not counterfiet.

Maybe I'm just not understanding how broad the term clone is used in the vaping world. The only difference between a clone and a counterfeit product (in their true definitions) is the intent to deceive.

I have no problem with devices that look similar and/or are made the same way as other products. But, once a logo or company name is put on that product that makes it industiguishable from the original (the true definition of a "clone") then that's where I have a problem with it.

What I thought I've been seeing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is true clones that are being sold and marketed as clones. IMO, that is unethical...and not just because of the "poor manufacturer" but more because of the issue of people not being able to tell the difference when they are re-sold by the public. Hell, remove the logo and replace it with "CLONE" for all I care.


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[DaveSignal]

For any mod that the true authentic version is not available for sale and what is left is being sold at very high prices (sometimes $2000+, like an authentic Caravela), people should always assume that they are looking at a clone. Just like if you went to an art store and saw a whole section of Picaso paintings for sale at low prices. You should expect that they are all replicas.

Even for a device like the manhattan, which isn't being manufactured anymore by ameravape and should sell for around $400, if you went to a vape shop and saw a $50 manhattan, it has to be a clone.

I think its great that consumers are able to find good clones of such high priced and hard to find products.

 

[skoony]

Sorry, Stowns, but you don't understand the definition of the word "clone". A "clone" is a product that is manufactured and sold as the original product it was copied from. DIY and/or premixed eJuice would only be a clone of you copied a recipe from a manufacturer, put a copy of that manufacturers label on it, and sold it. Otherwise it's nothing more than someone making a similar juice. The definition of the word "clone" in commerce requires more than just similarity in materials or ingredients.


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in any other industry what we refer to as a clone is called a counterfeit,knock off or fake.
if its just a mettle tube and switch then why don't they just get a metal
tube and switch,put a 510 connector on it and there you go.
when a product is copied down to every artistic and ergonomic detail
its a fake not a clone.
we are the only industry that uses the term clones to obfuscate the fact
they are stealing and selling the work of other people. of course
if you make something for your on personal use its fine as you are
not profiting from it.
regards
mike

 

[chargingcharlie]

in any other industry what we refer to as a clone is called a counterfeit,knock off or fake.
if its just a mettle tube and switch then why don't they just get a metal
tube and switch,put a 510 connector on it and there you go.
when a product is copied down to every artistic and ergonomic detail
its a fake not a clone.
we are the only industry that uses the term clones to obfuscate the fact
they are stealing and selling the work of other people. of course
if you make something for your on personal use its fine as you are
not profiting from it.
regards
mike

Thanks for verifying what I thought was the case.


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[Rossum]

Point being they invented e-cigs.

No, they did not.
Patent US3200819 - Smokeless non-tobacco cigarette - Google Patents

 

[DaveSignal]

I stopped reading after that paragraph. I didn't say the Chinese cloned his design. All I did was clarify who the inventor of the eCig was.



Maybe I'm just not understanding how broad the term clone is used in the vaping world. The only difference between a clone and a counterfeit product (in their true definitions) is the intent to deceive.

I have no problem with devices that look similar and/or are made the same way as other products. But, once a logo or company name is put on that product that makes it industiguishable from the original (the true definition of a "clone") then that's where I have a problem with it.

But often the logos on the authentic devices are direct copies of some other company's logo or artistry. For example, the Nemesis and King mod logos are stolen trademarks. Some other company or artist created those designs and was not compensated. And the entire Panzer design is a direct copy of the design of a particular flashlight.
So, in some ways, the authentic devices are clones too.

 

[miroko]

I think planofman hit the nail here.

Some people thinke the only ones entitled to have something is the ones who spend stupid amounts of money. After they spent that rediculos 400$ on a hollow tube and see other that only wasted 30$ and have a hollow tube that does EXACTLY the same thing, they feel roped off and haste to cry on forums.

But, if you try to watch the real picture here, the fact is we are all clones, our world is a clone, so far science tells us that we are all clones of a small African tribe.

You use, and consume a but load of clones in your daily life ( assuming you live in the civilization and not on a desert island), but when you spent a fortune in something so rediculos simple and watch others spent 1/10 and get the same thing you fell the need to steep on forum and make a tantrum about the poor manufacturers being riped off.

Oh the irony

PS: when I use the term "you" is not directed to the op but to everyone, like the op, that come cry on forums about clones.

 

[chargingcharlie]

You guys are just making excuses to justify the manufacturing and purchase of clones. If one company uses a logo that they don't legally own, then that doesn't give anyone else the right to make a direct copy of their device for sale. What it does do is it gives the actual owner of the artwork grounds to sue the person, who used their intellectual property for commercial purposes, for damages and compensation. Two wrongs don't make a right. Also, the "everything is a clone" argument is just rubbish. There are an infinite number of similar items around us, but don't confuse similarities as clones. You guys really need to grab a dictionary and understand what the word means. We are not all clones of a small African tribe. If we were, we'd all look EXACTLY alike.


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[PLANofMAN]

...and there's the rub. Many, if not most, e-cigarette mod and atomizer manufacturers don't trademark their logos, or choose not to trademark them internationally, which allows other country's manufacturers to "copy" that design, including logo. Most "clones" made in China, are, in the eyes of the law, legal.

If one company uses a logo that they don't legally own, then that doesn't give anyone else the right to make a direct copy of their device for sale.

Technically, it does give anyone else the right to do so, provided the logo/artwork trademark isn't owned by others. Not all original artwork/logos are trademarked.

 

[chargingcharlie]

...and there's the rub. Many, if not most, e-cigarette mod and atomizer manufacturers don't trademark their logos, or choose not to trademark them internationally, which allows other country's manufacturers to "copy" that design, including logo. Most "clones" made in China, are, in the eyes of the law, legal.

Technically, it does give anyone else the right to do so, provided the logo/artwork trademark isn't owned by others. Not all original artwork/logos are trademarked.

See my post above where I mention Common Law Trademark. Once a logo is used on a product it is trademarked under common law. Try again


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[PLANofMAN]

Common Law trademarks apply only within the originating country.

 

[chargingcharlie]

Common Law trademarks apply only within the originating country.

Try again. If that were the case then Chinese made cloned iPhones and designer handbags would be freely available in the US. Yes, the Chinese pretty much clone American products all they want, but they can't legally sell them in the US. Are you actually researching this? Or are you just making assumptions? The US, and many other countries, have very strict trademark and IP laws. Buy all the clones you want, but don't fool yourself into thinking that identically cloned products are legal or ethical.


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[PLANofMAN]

False assumption. Apple, Coach, Luis Vitton and others have international trademarks, patents, etc. Try to keep this relevant to vaping, which aside from a few major players, is still essentially a cottage industry within the U.S., EU, U.K. and Australia. For better or worse, China is still the major player in this industry, with names like Kanger, Joyetech, Hangsen and Ruyan.

For example, once V3tronix was granted their trademark, they were able to send cease and desist letters to the clone manufacturers. Seen any clone V3tronix Flips lately? Also, GP is another good example. Their trademark was registered in Bulgaria, but once the clones started arriving, they registered their trademarks- the GP logo and the aeolipile in the U.S.A. to prevent sales in the states. Once again, cease and desist letters were sent and the logos disappeared from the clones.

I won't argue the ethics of cloning mods and attys, but I do question whether they are "bad" for vaping. Not all manufacturers have issues with the clones.
Here's a quote from Zen (House of Hybrids)

So the Chi-NA clone is finally in the states, at least a sample of one has landed. I am very pleased they used Z2 threading and they maintained the same tube length. It is as close to a 1-1 clone as they can probably manage at the price point.

IF they are using the "dna clone" board that is in the CHANA it is important that people who are considering this purchase understand that the device will have NO battery condition monitoring or any of the safety features associated with the battery monitoring circuit. It does have a battery level meter... this is not the same thing as condition monitoring.

I am looking forward to the many number of people that will now get to experience the Z2 system at china prices. People entering the system from this direction will be able to add accessories from the existing Z2 lineup to personalize their Chi-NA, and if they decide to continue on and purchase an Authentic ZNA, the purchase of the accessories will not be a wasted effort. They will slide right onto the real device.

I will be contacting the manufacturer to see what we can do about getting access to these for certification as a factory authorized edition.

We live in a global economy. We have to embrace change. For those of you that feel they have stolen my design, it is true... they have... but the important thing about being in this industry is that devices like this save lives by helping people free themselves of their dependency on cigarettes and combustible tobacco.

If you are concerned about the effect this will have on my business and the livelihoods of my employees, please encourage the purchasers of the Chi-NA to accessorize with genuine ZenKote parts. I do ask that you NOT alienate people that make the choice to own a Chi-NA.

It took them 8 months to knock this one off... that's a long time in this industry, but we all knew it would happen. I am not going to file lawsuits against the resellers as others have done. I am not going to threaten the manufacturer in any way. If the American public wants to buy a knock-off of my design then they are going to buy it, no matter what I do. This is the world we live in, and I intend to embrace change.

Here's another from Zarras, the creator of the Gaia Mod

"Thank you" for cloning my design & mod
Thank you for advertising my brand "zArrAs" ...
see... i only released 111pieces (which ofc are already sold), and you make 1000...
so i really thank you for making 1000 more people to know me and my work.

PS: Just tell me, when i release GAIA II, to send you the CAD files,
cause as a clone you have done a LOOOT of errors.


sincerely yours,
zArrAs

 

[RebelGolfer72]

False assumption. Apple, Coach, Luis Vitton and others have international trademarks, patents, etc. Try to keep this relevant to vaping, which aside from a few major players, is still essentially a cottage industry within the U.S., EU, U.K. and Australia. For better or worse, China is still the major player in this industry, with names like Kanger, Joyetech, Hangsen and Ruyan.

For example, once V3tronix was granted their trademark, they were able to send cease and desist letters to the clone manufacturers. Seen any clone V3tronix Flips lately? Also, GP is another good example. Their trademark was registered in Bulgaria, but once the clones started arriving, they registered their trademarks- the GP logo and the aeolipile in the U.S.A. to prevent sales in the states. Once again, cease and desist letters were sent and the logos disappeared from the clones.

I won't argue the ethics of cloning mods and attys, but I do question whether they are "bad" for vaping. Not all manufacturers have issues with the clones.
Here's a quote from Zen (House of Hybrids)


Here's another from Zarras, the creator of the Gaia Mod

2 very mature and realistic responses. Zen also will perform an upgrade of the knock off dna boards with an authentic in these devices, which is cool.

Sam thing happened in the music equipment industry in the 1970s and 1980s. The big players, Fender and Gibson were being cloned left and right by the Japanese. They may have been losing a small amount of sales, but most likely, not much, since the reason people were buying the knock offs was that many could not afford the real deal..and they realized that these clones would get people playing guitar that may not otherwise have done so. In response to that, and seeing that there was a huge market in their designs, but at a lower price point, created their own "budget minded alternatives", and create the "Squier by Fender" and "Epiphone, by Gibson" lines of guitars (yes, the Epiphone name was older than this, and at one time was a high end mfr themselves, but through acquisition, at this point in time, it was just a name that was owned by Gibson). Granted many of the smaller vape related designers can't afford the luxury of having authorized clones, I believe we will start to see more of it eventually.

 

[chargingcharlie]

You're correct...somehow I thought you were saying it only protects them from manufacturers in the country of origin. Like I said earlier, my concern isn't even with very similar products. I just think it's bad to copy them right down to the logos and engravings.


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