" Is Nicotine Addiction Safe In The Long Term And You" : The Debate

[HighlanderNorth]

I think it can be stated with complete clarity and accuracy that vaping with nicotine in safe amounts is MUCH safer than smoking cigarettes.

But I have repeatedly read that there are negative side effects caused by nicotine, because it is a poison. I plan on using vaping with nicotine to stop smoking, which I have been doing for 28 hours now, and vaping with approx. 12mg/ml of nicotine in the e-liquid is working well to curb my cravings. I did slip and smoke 1/2 a cigarette earlier today, but thats better than the 24 or so I wouldve smoked in that same amount of time if I wasnt vaping now.

But I hope to slowly decrease the amount of nicotine in my e-liquid at some point and either quit vaping, or continue vaping non-nicotine flavors.

but I think its a fact that nicotine is still bad for your health. How bad? Who knows... But I recently heard that it hardens blood vessels and arteries, potentially/probably/ definitely speeds up tumor growth, and causes tumors to spread faster.

See:

"Nicotine has been noted to directly cause cancer through a number of different mechanisms such as the activation of MAP Kinases.[73] Indirectly, nicotine increases cholinergic signalling (and adrenergic signalling in the case of colon cancer[74]), thereby impeding apoptosis (programmed cell death), promoting tumor growth, and activating growth factors and cellular mitogenic factors such as 5-LOX, and EGF. Nicotine also promotes cancer growth by stimulating angiogenesis and neovascularization.[75][76] In one study, nicotine administered to mice with tumors caused increases in tumor size (twofold increase), metastasis (nine-fold increase), and tumor recurrence (threefold increase)."


It also definitely raises blood pressure and heart rate. It also does the following to rats(and maybe to humans as well):

"A study on rats showed that nicotine exposure abolishes the beneficial and protective effects of estrogen on the hippocampus,[61] an estrogen-sensitive region of the brain involved in memory formation and retention."

But as someone else mentioned, there are some beneficial aspects to nicotine. But as with anything, too much is a bad thing........

 

[ShogaNinja]

I think it can be stated with complete clarity and accuracy that vaping with nicotine in safe amounts is MUCH safer than smoking cigarettes.

But I have repeatedly read that there are negative side effects caused by nicotine, because it is a poison. I plan on using vaping with nicotine to stop smoking, which I have been doing for 28 hours now, and vaping with approx. 12mg/ml of nicotine in the e-liquid is working well to curb my cravings. I did slip and smoke 1/2 a cigarette earlier today, but thats better than the 24 or so I wouldve smoked in that same amount of time if I wasnt vaping now.

But I hope to slowly decrease the amount of nicotine in my e-liquid at some point and either quit vaping, or continue vaping non-nicotine flavors.

but I think its a fact that nicotine is still bad for your health. How bad? Who knows... But I recently heard that it hardens blood vessels and arteries, potentially/probably/ definitely speeds up tumor growth, and causes tumors to spread faster.

See:

"Nicotine has been noted to directly cause cancer through a number of different mechanisms such as the activation of MAP Kinases.[73] Indirectly, nicotine increases cholinergic signalling (and adrenergic signalling in the case of colon cancer[74]), thereby impeding apoptosis (programmed cell death), promoting tumor growth, and activating growth factors and cellular mitogenic factors such as 5-LOX, and EGF. Nicotine also promotes cancer growth by stimulating angiogenesis and neovascularization.[75][76] In one study, nicotine administered to mice with tumors caused increases in tumor size (twofold increase), metastasis (nine-fold increase), and tumor recurrence (threefold increase)."


It also definitely raises blood pressure and heart rate. It also does the following to rats(and maybe to humans as well):

"A study on rats showed that nicotine exposure abolishes the beneficial and protective effects of estrogen on the hippocampus,[61] an estrogen-sensitive region of the brain involved in memory formation and retention."

But as someone else mentioned, there are some beneficial aspects to nicotine. But as with anything, too much is a bad thing........

Thanks for being one of the few to take the negative side of nicotine. I am a Libra, and I realize that has little bearing on the subject at hand, but I am not one to take one side and stick with it. I am one to support the underdog because what a Libra wants more than anything is to balance the scales. You can say that astrology is full of crap and I'd believe you sometimes, but whatever you want to call it, I am neutral above all things. I believe that makes me perfect to host this debate.

Yes, nicotine has been proven to spread tumors. To me, cancer being far more common than the fringe diseases of ADHD, Parkinson's, and Alzheimer's diseases, that the effects of metasticization and tumor recurrence far outweigh the likelihood of the possible benefit of helping prevent of the aforementioned diseases.

Above all, what I am concerned very deeply about is the fact that addiction weighs heavily on the psyche. I really don't care what studies are shown to me. The fact is that no one can tell me that addiction is a healthy way to live. Health aside, and if nothing else, the amount of money one spends vaping or smoking could do great things; better things than support an addiction.

What I had wanted to get through to these often closed-minded addicts of nicotine is that it's not without risk, and it's not healthy to be an addict of anything whether it be nicotine or cheese. Call that the Libra in me, I don't care. Someone has to combat the denial epidemic that is going on in this forum.

Am I perfect? No. Do I know all the answers? No. What I had wanted to do was to create a debate that was not one-sided. I do appreciate that you have taken the other side with me.

 

[CES]

For me, the real question is relative risk. Yes, there are risks with nicotine use, but the risk of nicotine use is less than the risk of smoking. My risk of cancer was greatly increased when i was smoking, and i can only hope that more than 2 1/2 years without the known carcinogens in smoke has reduced it somewhat.

The question of "addiction" in this context seems to me a moral rather than scientific one. Are we talking science or morality? Looking at the relative risks of nicotine, versus smoking, versus nothing, versus caffeine, versus cheese, versus other drugs, can be approached scientifically.

Making judgment calls about whether "addiction" is inherently bad is a social or moral call. The definition of addiction that one uses also changes the terms of the debate. By definition, addiction interferes with functioning. If i continue to function appropriately am i addicted? If i function better am i addicted? Is addiction to caffeine bad? as bad as addiction to other drugs? If i really, really really crave cheese or chocolate and eat it daily am i addicted?

But interestingly, one of the hallmarks of physiological addiction is increased tolerance. Yet my tolerance for nicotine has decreased (my tolerance for cheese and chocolate are about the same). I'm glad i need less nicotine. And sure it would be nice if i had never started smoking, but i did. I also never expected vaping to be a reasonable alternative to smoking. But it is.

So since I don't have the will power, or desire, to stop using something that harms no one else, and doesn't interfere with (and may enhance) my day-to-day functioning, and i have a reasonable amount of information to do a cost benefit analysis for myself, does that make me a bad person? I know that all of the data aren't in, but i also know that if i had not started vaping i would still be smoking.

I'm glad for those who want to and can step down easily. And for those who are willing to step down, even when it's not easy. I'm stepping down slowly, and in another couple of years i might be nicotine free. I might not be. Either way works for me because the preponderance of the evidence supports the hypothesis that nicotine alone is less harmful than smoking.

I do have a problem when the question is presented as one-size-fits all and any other answer is defined as immoral. The inclusion of moral judgements about good or bad interfere with the assessment of the actual risk level. I'm willing to go through data and papers evaluate the evidence. But I'm not willing to debate about the moral aspects of the choice to use nicotine, cheese, or caffeine.

 

[Gr8Scott]

Ya know,I hesitate in posting these links but when non-smokers kept bugging me about smoking I actually found info about the benefits of smoking. Yes proof you can find anything on the internet.

So I want to preface these links with this:
I don't smoke anymore(6 days!! Yee haw!) no do I plan on going back. Why? Vaping is superior to smoking in so many ways.I don't gamble and especially not with my life or health.
I don't recommend smoking, and I sincerely hope this info doesn't push any of the "fence-dwellers" back to the side of the fence that is one of bondage and disease.I just think that the info may point out the benefits of the nicotine present in the cigarettes, which is what this post is about.
We are all adults here and I choose not to withhold information because it might be "dangerous". That is the type of thinking that tyrants use to oppress the masses.
Also, this is alot of info, and I just don't want to allocate a bunch of time pouring through it myself, so without further ado:

So Many Books, So Little Time

the Smoking Scare De-Bunked.

Lots of info here:

FORCES - THE EVIDENCE - Therapeutic effects of smoking


Happy reading........Keep on Vaping!

 

[quandryron]

I'll post this one little blurb. I've had ulcerative colitis since 1991. I've tried many many meds only prednisone works with any consistency. Prednisone. Google it. Prednisone has so many side effects and dangers from long term use that you ask yourself, "Why do doctors prescribe this stuff?" It has killed people. I did not smoke at this time. Move on to 1998. I'm laid off of work...again. My wife has an anxiety attack and goes into the hospital's mental ward to protect her from herself. My mother becomes afflicted with non Hodgekins lymphoma at 48 yrs of age. Face it. I was stressed. A friend hands me a cigarette and tells me it'll help me to relax. There begins my nicotine habit and there begins a period of my life where colitis goes into remission. 7 years later, I quit smoking because I am tired of the smell. I was not aware that the nicotine was keeping the colitis at bay. For the next 7 months I am off of work because the flare up is so bad, I am losing so much blood, I look like... Auschwitz. It took me almost 7 months before I found a doctor who was honest enough to tell the truth about nicotine and colitis.

Nicotine helps colitis sufferers...period. It is, in my redneck opinion, safer than prednisone. Vaping is a method of nicotine delivery that removes every negative of smoking and gives me what I need for survival. If it weren't for colitis I would not have picked the habit back up. Now, after about a month of vaping, things are still 'looking good'. I have no intention of ever quiting...period.

Sent from an Amish slate left in the parking lot.

 

[Foggy]

I hope that you don't mind. I quoted your post in the AMA My Ordeal With Severe Irritable Bowel Syndrome. If you do, I'll ask a mod to delete.

I'll also be passing the nicotine information on to a relative affected by IBD. Thank you for sharing and reminding me.

 

[quandryron]

Have at it. If I had any expectation that this would be held privately (on the internet) I wouldn't have posted it.

Sent from an Amish slate left in the parking lot.

 

[bssage]

I recently got in a debate with some veterans, ECF moderators, and CASAA activists about nicotine

Execalant idea

I was received quite coldly,

Hard to believe

my mission. Nicotine is a very toxic substance,

Thats clear. OK we agree.

everyone here wanting to live in a happy land of rainbows and butterflies,

I prefer the land of "beer and boobies"

I have done a bit of preliminary research

Cool link me up.

I personally believe that EVERY doctor in the world will tell you that a non-smoker is healthier than a vaper 100 times out of 100.

Wow: even non smokers who are dying?

Nicotine, nay ANY addiction (be it legal or not), is a very serious matter that must be addressed

Ok I'm game lets do that.

It was our original quest to quit smoking. We saw vaping as a tool to do that. Once we found out how easy it was it does not mean that our quest is over.

Our?? We?? Do you have a mouse in your pocket??

at the end of the day, we are here to lower our chances of getting cancer

My list of what I wanted to accomplish is as long as your arm. Cancer is only one item.

I am creating this thread to open a realistic discussion on the effects of vaping whether what it may contain is what you want to hear, or not.

Ok lets do this thing. I'm all in

Please back up this opinion with as much science

Yes please. Cookin with butter now baby

MAY be responsible for the spread of cancer once you already have it (by up to 3 times more likely)

. Um OK.

From the research I have done I have found conflicting information that both states that it can cause cancer and that it cannot. I did not personally know what to make of such contradictory statements.

Umm OK.

I pulled this straight from nicotine article on Wikipedia:
This is where I got that line about Nicotine helping spread cancer once you already have the cells in your body. I cannot seem to find a lot of information on it but I know that all nicotine comes from tobacco and as such they must contain TSNAs

Umm OK.

according to the World Health Organization the safe oral intake of acrolein is 7.5mg per KG of body weight. It would be impossible to generate that much acrolein, and even more impossible to vape that much ejuice in a day, but it does concern me that they use this stuff to kill algae.

Ok not really a link. Not really supporting your side of the debate. But I get it W H O says acrolein not a factor. But losing our algae is a deal breaker: OK

bacon isn't a big risk for you if you eat it once, but if you eat it every day it will kill you in the end.

Yes: yes it will. I'm with you on this.

When I was doing to research to get into vaping I actually read an article

Really?

that equated the heart damage done by smoking is the same as eating like 9 pieces of bacon per cigarette. So as I was smoking a pack a day I was thinking wow, that's 180 pieces of bacon lol.

LOL cool I like bacon.

even a statistic of 1% over millions of people makes a very significant number.

Ok then. The bacon story tied the entire thread together. We (my mouse and I) had no idea 1% of a large number would = another large number.

Do you have any links that you can share with us?

WHAT ?

Everywhere I look on this subject I find that it is not recommended as a healthy thing to remain on in the long term

Ok then: Where was that?

Do you have any links that you can share with us?

WHAT?

none of the current NRTs prescribed by doctors has a heat component to it.

Sure about that?

combat this rampant belief that one should vape for life

I was unaware I was supposed to vape for life. Link please.

because they believe it's 100% safe.

Link please.

Ah but this thread is about nicotine alone. I apologize that I didn't make it about long term vaping,

Now my head hurts.

Addressing the other posters here I do realize vaping is 1000x better than smoking. That is not what this discussion is about. The issue here is that, from what I personally have read, and heard from the mouths of doctors, a vaper is not as healthy as a non-vaper and we would like to get down to why that is - with science.

Yes by all means lets do that.

I learned about this in a newspaper article over 10 years ago. Since I don't have that article on hand at this time instead of trying to find it I pulled this from Wikipedia:

Cool I love links

In the United States, tobacco is often fertilized with the mineral apatite, which partially starves the plant of nitrogen, to produce a more desired flavor. Apatite, however, contains radium, lead 210, and polonium 210—which are known radioactive carcinogens.
It makes you wonder if any of this is ending up in our ejuice.

Well I am sure that would be impossible to disprove. Absolutely no way someone (especially someone on this thread) would have access to information in that regard.

I am forced to remain on topic as much as possible.

Yes please,,,,,,,excuse me my bacon is done. See below

I don't agree with everything you say because you state things in fact instead of the hypothetical. I also do not appreciate what I consider to be personal attacks. I do, however, agree with this statement. There have been many many tests that prove that these chemicals are GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) but one has to wonder if they are done with these chemicals AFTER being vaporized. One can imagine that the smoke machines that pump out PG "fog" are much higher voltage than our simple PV's but VG is another question entirely. Plus there is acrolein produced by heated PG to consider.

Oops sorry I was eating. What did I miss? Is there bacon in smoke machines. Got threadlocked somehow.

ad-hominem

I don't want to argue with you.

Riiiiight

there is no need for ad-hominem. If you need to look that up then so be it.

Let me google that for you,

Prove what you can,

yes please.

I'll go ahead and forgive you.

What!!!! 8-o

Such a thing would do no good. As I mentioned before they are going to produce their product as cheaply as possible and that entails using the supply that is most abundant, be it radioactive or not.

Juice maker: " This is the new stuff we purchased from Chernobyl. Wear gloves"

Apprentice " Looks like you spilled some on your tail"

I'm just going to add the haters to my ignore list who have nothing better to do but try to insult people they don't know when they disagree that the studies they have shown are pretty weak.

#1 you have shown studies?? #2 Please dont put me on the list. I really enjoy your stuff.

I found a cool thread on addiction that may interest some people:
Habits: How They Form And How To Break Them : NPR

Finally some real facts,,,,,,,,,,,,,,from a blogger.

I have 2 uncles who both underwent alternative medicine treatments to quit smoking and neither one has relapsed. In the case of one it's been well over a decade. In the case of the other, mere months. The one that has lasted the longest so far was my uncle who underwent hypnosis therapy. The other was acupuncture. Because he got it done so recently, only time will tell as to the effectiveness of that particular treatment. He has taken to chewing on toothpicks now instead.

Finally more facts with links,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Oh.

I am not simply relying on wikipedia, I am also drawing my facts from studies on these aformentioned NRT methods, as well as common knowledge (as in the case of Polonium 210 being used in tobacco). Perhaps I will rediscover the links for them and post them for you for clarity's sake. I cannot however paste 1000 links from Google when one could just as easily type those search terms in themselves and see that there is a world of information out there that is both contradictory, and frightening. It's easy to see that not all of it is true, but its mere existence makes one have to think that one mere study isn't near enough to combat the 1000 other pages that say otherwise.

I dont even know what to do with this.

I would say, however, that hypnosis is the cheapest of all because it seems to work

For one of your uncle's. Why have you not done it. Or at least done the minimum amount of research before you advocate.

which I am personally trying to combat.

You should try hypnosis. I have heard its extremely effective.

Anyone with a sensible amount of reasoning can see through the posted "credible" claims that study made.

WHAT

The burden of proof isn't mine,

Statement of the obvious.

If you can show me 10 studies that come to the same results I will accept it.

Really,,,,,10 thats the magic number:10?

I don't subscribe to every thread I post to or create,

And that sir is a Wise move.

I love how you say people aren't stalking me and then you stalk me.

Maybe other poster are thinking the same as I. I am wondering if all of your threads are like this. And after I finish with this thread. I plan to click "other threads started by this poster" just for grins. My be it's not driven by hate: but rather joy. I know I personally have enjoyed reading your stuff. So not a "Hater" more of a "Joyer"

I never set out to "convince people my opinion is correct"

Alrighty then

I set out to combat the rampant idea that vaping is 100% healthy for people,

Someone said it was 100% healthy? Is there something on the planet that is 100% healthy? If that is the case: I agree with your mission. Carry on solder.

I set out to challenge people to think for themselves,

That may be true. But I suppose it would also be alright if they let you take care of that for them.

Maybe you should watch a movie that starts with Trainsp.....g and another that starts with Requiem f.. a d.... (PM me for the exact names if you can't guess. I don't want to break any rules on the forum here).

Finally some relevant links. Its the exact same as nicotine in ecigs??

Do I quote sources? No, because there are none worth quoting.

WHAT

Yes, nicotine has been proven to spread tumors. To me, cancer being far more common than the fringe diseases of ADHD, Parkinson's, and Alzheimer's diseases, that the effects of metasticization and tumor recurrence far outweigh the likelihood of the possible benefit of helping prevent of the aforementioned diseases.

My grandpa on moms side. And my dads sister may disagree with you. Do you have any idea what "Benefit Analyses" is. This is why I enjoy your posts so much.

I really don't care what studies are shown to me.

That goes without saying really.

What I had wanted to get through to these often closed-minded addicts of nicotine is that it's not without risk,

And there lays the problem. You are going to have to show me one person on the planet who has said there is no risk. people are responding just to share information. Not because they believe there is no risk. The issue is IMHO how you perceive others. Has nothing to do with haters or trolls. I doubt many of these "haters" care at all about you. Your are probably not on their mind. But you are trying to sell milk to the cow. WE KNOW ADDITIONS ARE BAD! WE KNOW NICOTINE IS BAD! We are actively participating in risk analyses. Wether its between analogs or ecigs. Or between the reward effects of the nicotine itself.

I came to the thread to find some good links to share with others. I was hoping to get all the pertinent information so that I would not be linking them to "My Opinion" And there were some good links to studies here. I will look at the links investigate the methodology, Look for peer reviews. That is the way a person researches this kinds of stuff. Not like this.

Call me a troll: Call me a hater: report me. I dont care. If you check my history at ECF. you will find I am neither. But that would involve research.

 

[bssage]

Ok Mod's I am sorry in advance. I really couldn't help myself. I will accept my punishment are responsability for my actions. In my defense I think the "meat and potato's" of the thread was over. CES did provide some very searchable refrences that I plan to self educate with before I share. Which is why I came to this thread in the first place.

Again Mod's....Peer's ,,,,,,,,,,,,,MY BAD. wont happen again.

It is kinda a multi-quote work of art though.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Again Mod's....Peer's ,,,,,,,,,,,,,MY BAD. wont happen again.

It is kinda a multi-quote work of art though.

I think "Work of Art" is an Understatement.

Masterpiece is more Like It.

 

[CES]

It was indeed a thing of beauty Bssage

 

[Hippie]

any addiction isn't considered safe.