Fear from FDA, Family Members, etc That Vaping is Long Term Substitue for Other Addictions

[cramptholomew]

I get that what you're asking is morally/philosophically motivated. As far as I'm concerned, I'm quite comfortable having a nicotine addiction. I wasn't comfortable having a cigarette addiction. Everyone has some sort of vice, to a degree. The vices I have now are nicotine, and hobbies. Both of which I find enjoyable, and they don't affect my life negatively. My point is - if you have an addiction to something, you enjoy it, and it's not hurting anyone - even yourself, then where is the moral dilemma? As long as your "addiction" doesn't cause upheaval in other aspects of your life - whether morals, religious, relationship, economic, health, etc. - then I say it's OK. It's OK to be addicted to things that don't intrude on your wellbeing. If it gives you joy, peace, relaxation, then I would hang on to that - instead forcing yourself into a miserable moral dilemma about it. Our lives are not that long, why waste time always dissecting every little thing that we do, wondering how "right" it is? I'm not talking about common sense issues (not harming others, etc.), I'm talking about the little things, the minutiae. Instead, stop and think about your own happiness, and whether you're just being hard on yourself.

 

[k3vin]

Take these words of wisdom...NOt mine,but by someone well Loved...

" NATURE ABHORS A VACUUM"

The minute you stop a habit,something comes in to take up that space/time frame/money being spent...It will be called a HABIT...

Is it A healthier habit? Is the new habit still taking up as much money as the original one? Again WE have to make the decision as to what we will allow to come in and fill that SPACE that we have emptied of the previous habit.

I dont care who you are this is how it works in life.

This is what I meant earlier in my other post about how everyone has something.We are built around our habits,Am I defined by my habits? to those outside of those who know me,maybe,but so what.My money is on the fact they have some habit that for them is possibly a lot less healthier than what I am doing,physically or even mentally." The question is do we define those habits as addicitons,whether reading books constantly,gaming online,working,etc..etc..

 

[AgentAnia]

For the gum. You know, "chewable cigarettes".

(Well, if PVs are "electronic cigarettes", nicotine gum is "chewable cigarettes")

Oh I love this! Absolutely love this! Gonna use this!

Nicorette: chewable cigarettes.

The patch: sticky cigarettes.

Lozanges: suckable cigarettes.

Thank you, mkbilbo, you made my day!!!

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled topic...

 

[The Yeti]

After vaping for almost 4 years - and just as long off of cigarettes after 30+ years - I have absolutely no intention of ever quitting vaping....ever.

I have, however, dropped my nic level over the years from 36mg to my current 10mg and my next batch of DIY base waiting on the shelf is mixed up at 8mg. I don't think I could ever go 0mg though, I've tried it and it just doesn't 'do it' for me.

I've been nic free before in my life (for short periods of time), and believe me....I'm a way better person when I have nic in me.

I really couldn't care less what people think of my addiction/habit/hobby/obsession/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

 

[Mohamed]

I'd like to throw in another perhaps random thought, specifically relating to this thread but also to general discussions on the topic, and I think you, Mohamed, are starting to see it as such:

The issue of "substituting one addiction for another" is a moral/philosophical/and yes even religious issue, and no, there is no "right answer." The problem seems to arise when people addressing the issue try to add science into the mix, to prove or disprove their point or to convince others that their position/belief is the "right" one (which implies that there is, in fact, a right belief, one right belief: theirs). Tempting to do so, especially when the subject is ecigs, where there is so much science involved. But don't get distracted by the science, address the core issue, which is divergent moral/philosophical/etc beliefs.

/exiting random thought mode...

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. My original post and title was unclear and I apologize for that. I also apologize for slightly losing my cool as well. I guess nicotine withdrawal put's us all on edge and extremely defensive I should have spent more time formulating my question. If I would have realized its was a philosophical/religious/moral question in the first place; I never would have asked it.

The questions can be asked in a few different forms: "Is it bad to substitute one addiction for another?" "Is an addiction bad if it does not affect the health of you or others?"
Or they can be just a statement: "Addictions are bad."

The ammo and the answer that I will use if confronted with this: The question/statement is a philosophical/religious/moral issue. No right or wrong answer can be given as it is based on a belief system that can neither be proven or disproven.

That's it plain and simple. If you are debating with an intellectual type and have studied philosophy they clearly know that these types of statements can not be proven or disproven. If you prove or disprove that god exists you will probably get a Nobel peace prize.

It is however healthy to debate these types of questions so that you confront your own belief system from time to time.

As for the Aztec comment I do not believe it was off topic. I thought it was an elegant way of side stepping the health and safety issue (the nicotine is just as healthy/harmful as caffeine argument) and defining why in HIS BELIEF SYSTEM that he thinks "addictions are bad." His basic answer was that he felt that any addiction that can be used to control the masses is not good and thus bad. Again this is what it is HIS belief system and you can't prove or disprove a belief system.

Again I apologize for posting a question that can not be answered and for getting defensive myself at what I believed to be so many off topic comments; part of which was due to the nature of the question. I was just getting frustrated with so much of the healthy vs non healthy caffeine debates when I clearly stated that was not what I was after. Was also getting frustrated with what seemed like everyone was under the assumption that I was dealing with close minded ignorant people in my life.

 

[Uma]

Oh I love this! Absolutely love this! Gonna use this!

Nicorette: chewable cigarettes.

The patch: sticky cigarettes.

Lozanges: suckable cigarettes.

Thank you, mkbilbo, you made my day!!!

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled topic...

You two are great!! Love these!!!

tapatypo

 

[Uma]

For years, the guidance councilors, positive talk leaders, always said ,the only way to get rid of a bad habit is to replace with a good habit"

Smoking was definitely a bad habit. Vaping is my good habit.

I'm almost not addicted to nicotine anymore... i go in streaks where i dont need it at all (zero nicotine) and other times (stress, depression) where i not only need nicotine in my vape but i need to light up a cig for 3 puffs as well.

I'm addicted to happiness. I cant handle stress and sadness or i reach out for things that arent good for me.

I traded a sad addiction for a happy one.
Is it morally wrong? Hell no.

There is a video by a Pastor Drug Counsellor person who talks about the moral issues of vaping. Pastor Mike i think is his name. Its well worth the watch. He knows addiction if anyone does.

I would link it but I'm on the phone . Hoefully somebody else will pull it up for you.

tapatypo

 

[bunnomatic]

I see your point; but I think it is going into the "healthier" debate. I'm really looking for a solid debate tactic to use when confronted with the "You are just transferring your smoking addiction to a purer nicotine addiction."

I would really like some type of counter argument to give to family, friends, and colleagues.

Try "so what" and move on to another subject. When they start wearing your shoes and paying your bills then they might have a say about your life style, otherwise they should mind their own business.

 

[RosaJ]

You know I have to bring this out, but it's not because you choose to ignore it

I don't think that anyone is going to argue that nicotine isn't addictive. The real question is: how addictive is it?

Can I suggest a little experiment? For those that have been off analogs for a year or more, can you go more than 2 hours without vaping, and not get the jitters? How hard/easy was it? (Should we start another thread for this?)

I certainly can go without vaping for 4 hours. Haven't tried any longer because I haven't had the need to, I'm retired now. Stopped smoking 1 1/2 years ago.

 

[InTheShade]

My conclusion is that u or I have NOT given up 1 addiction for another-- Vapeing vs smoking, we just switched how we get our nicotine by simply using a proven safer alternative.

That's your answer.

That's my take, what I said on page 1. People talk about swapping addictions but the simple fact of the matter is the addition remains.

Now as for trying to direct a thread on an internet forum OP, you're just going to have to live with the fact that discussions are organic and often go in completely different directs to that intended. Sure you can try to keep it on topic, but don't chide us for taking it in any specific direction.

 

[mkbilbo]

I think this is the area I want this discussion to go and unfortunately I don't think we have a lot of scientific or statistical studies to go off. We really only have subjective statements from vapors with "no real data". Regardless of that fact how do you justify to family members, friends, etc that all you have done is transfer the delivery system. But in reality you are still just as addicted to nicotine as you were before?

Maybe your family, friends, etc are more accepting of the "healthier" fact...but again a lot of the people I associate with still see it as a weakness.

Okay. And?

No, I'm serious. And?

In the end, it won't be them that bear the health consequences of what you do to yourself. There is a limit to how much the opinions of others matter.

Also to a certain extent I agree with them that being dependent on any drug even if it's just caffeine in coffee probably isn't healthy. My sister had headaches for months when going from a 6 diet cokes a day to zero. That may be part aspartame or whatever the unnatural sugar is...but again my point is addiction is weakness. I don't want to have a nicotine addiction for years as I personally don't feel that is healthy.

Probably was the caffeine. Caffeine and nicotine may actually be on par with each other on addictive potential.

To each their own...but for me I don't want to have an addiction looming over my head forever and ever. Welcome everyone's thoughts and do not want to put anyone down that has quit smoking analogs in exchange for ecigs. This is my personal battle with myself, my family, and my friends. I truly want to be addiction free at some point.

You will be. When you're dead.

I hate to tell you this but one of the fundamental realities of addiction is that it involves the manipulation of neurotransmitters such as dopamine to which you are "addicted" from the day you were born until the day you die. In fact, without your inherent dopamine "addiction", you wouldn't have gotten out of bed this morning. Or any other morning. Without a dopamine "addiction", you'd see no point to life and probably throw yourself off a bridge or some such thing.

This is why Pfizer is settling over 2700 cases involving suicides or attempted suicides by users of Chantix (to the tune of $273 million so far). Chantix was intended to stop nicotine from triggering dopamine production. In far too many cases, it apparently inhibits dopamine production or uptake and the people in question ceases to see the point of life itself. And kill themselves.

There are critical neurotransmitter "addictions" that are the reason you bother living and without them, you stop.

What we commonly call "addiction" is artificially triggering these neurotransmitters in ways that are harmful are become harmful in some way. But it's an ill defined concept. Always has been. It's not easy to come up with hard lines of what is and is not "harmful".

A caffeine addiction, for example. It exists. It's real. It may be, for many, as strong as a nicotine addiction is for some. But if you were to start talking of the "scourge of caffeine" and trying to outlaw Starbucks, you'll be treated as a lunatic. Never mind it and nicotine have so many parallels (both, for example, are natural pesticides derived from plants that developed them to fend off bugs that would eat the plant). Never mind that caffeine addition may be more common than nicotine addiction (for all we know... does anybody bother to check?).

What are the long term health consequences of being a coffee drinker?

Duh... erm... um... huh?

Sure, there probably are some. Some positive. Some negative. And we've all bothered to fret over that issue for how many seconds?

Caffeine addiction--and, remember, it may be equal in strength to a nicotine addiction--is treated as funny. I was bored and watching old reruns of ST:Voyager on Netflix (yeesh, I had to be really bored to do that). In it, one funny bit about the captain is she can't deal with anybody or anything before her coffee. A clear sign of caffeine addiction. This was treated as an "amusing bit of characterization".

The overall consequences to society are... less than trivial? I am unaware of mass scale smuggling of illegal coffee. I do not believe I've read of gang wars or "caffeine kings" having people killed. There do not appear to be any crime statistics associated with coffee use. As in such things as people breaking into homes to steal things to fund a trip to Starbucks. No stories of parents neglecting their children because of coffee use. Starbucks never seems to look like a "drug den". At least not last I went.

But this "line" where caffeine is on one side and nicotine the other may well be arbitrary and purely socially constructed. There is research that suggests the two may be more or less equivalent in addictive power.

Until now (as in recent times, not this instant), nicotine was only available in a clearly dangerous form. That is the combustion of tobacco and the inhalation of smoke. Humans, not being smoke breathing creatures, do not do well with lungs full--pretty much nonstop--of smoke and harsh chemicals. We do know that method of acquiring nicotine is a serious health risk. And not just to the user but the people around them.

So this one kind of turns on the issue of the delivery system.

You know people who go to the gym a lot? Are in great shape? They deliberately addict themselves to a forced production of certain endorphins. Which are: "any of a group of peptides, resembling opiates, that are released in the body in response to stress or trauma and that react with the brain's opiate receptors to reduce the sensation of pain."

Notice this bit? "...resembling opiates..."?

Weight training is an opium addiction.

I am not kidding. Did heavy weight training when I was younger (and better get myself back into shape, I ain't getting any younger). You get high. Actual, serious, high. It's a euphoric feeling. It's great stuff. I loved it.

Exercise is a thing meant to deliberately addict yourself to a healthy behavior.

I deny that "addiction", in and of itself, is a problem. A superbly fit athlete is damn well addicted to opiates produced naturally by exercise. Instead of "treating" them, we sign them to multimillion dollar contracts. A street addicted user of opiates is thrown in jail.

Go figure?

We need better terms than just "addiction is bad". We may need to jettison the word "addiction" entirely.

By the way, all humans are sex addicts. If we weren't, our species would have died out and we wouldn't be here to have this discussion...

 

[Bob Chill]

I disagree to a degree about vaping being an apples to apples switch inside of a nicotine addiction. They are not the same at all. Cig withdrawal is horrifying. Nicotine withdrawal is annoying but quite minor league compared to cig withdrawal. I couldn't vape last weekend for almost 8 hours. Yea, I definitely wanted to vape and wished I had a lozenge in my pocket but it wasn't that bad to be honest. When I was a PAD+ smoker going 8 hours was physically painful to a degree.

I'm totally comfortable with a nicotine addiction. I believe it makes me a better person (in the same light as my morning 2 cups of coffee make me a better person). I'm too old to worry about turning back the clock anyway. 30 years of nicotine addiction is what it is. My only chance in life to not be a nic addiction passed by in 1984. My wiring turned the switch on then and it's proven to not be able to be turned off. But that's fine for me. Water under the bridge and I quite like where I am today.

I have 4 kids. As any parent, I don't want them to start smoking, chewing, or vaping. But they will do whatever they want with anything that's available to them. If any of my kids have the same wiring as me then I will push them down the vaping path immediately. I think anyone who is wired to be easily addicted to smoking will end up smoking. It's hard to deny certain things about oneself. Some traits in regards to vices (good and bad) will show their face no matter how educated or aware you are about the consequences.

I'm thankful I'm not a gambler, pill abuser, or alcoholic. Those things don't just steal your health, they can steal your quality of life very early on in the game. I've always been a hard worker and a productive entrepreneur. Nicotine doesn't stand in the way of that at all. In some ways I think is seriously helps me. You have to be constantly on point and motivated to be an entrepreneur. My mind races quite a bit and I find the act of smoking and the effects of nicotine to help me keep a razor focus. Is it because I'm an addict and can't perform without? It doesn't matter anymore. I can't turn the clock back 30 years to figure it out.

Another thing about vaping that I find interesting. It clearly won't have the grip of cigarettes for new users. Even if everybody tries it in their life (just like almost everybody tries smoking at some point) I don't think the same # of folks will become lifetime users as cigarettes. For those that do become lifetime users they would have become a lifetime smoker anyways. Sure there are exceptions but nobody can convince me otherwise.

 

[mkbilbo]

Beyond that, people who are quitting smoking are known to be rather "touchy" and can fly off the handle in a split second. So if you ended up in a screaming fit, well, they had it coming anyway.

Snicker.

Ah yes, I remember how fast the "Congratulations!" and "Good for you!" turned into, "I'll buy you a pack, please smoke, I'm begging you!!!"

You don't want to be anywhere near me during nicotine withdrawal. You probably don't want to be in the same state and may even consider traveling abroad...

 

[mkbilbo]

I see your point; but I think it is going into the "healthier" debate. I'm really looking for a solid debate tactic to use when confronted with the "You are just transferring your smoking addiction to a purer nicotine addiction."

I would really like some type of counter argument to give to family, friends, and colleagues.

So what's wrong with:

"Mind your own business."

Works for me.

(Actually, I had in mind a more, ahem, colorful way of expressing that but, you know, forum filters, mods... )

 

[Rickajho]

OK just me here IMO I don't think its a trade out because I have went from 24 nic down to 14/16 and just starting on 12 as I type so no not a trade safer alternative yes

Exactly. Call it an addiction or a bad habit it if you must. (I sure don't.) Safer alternative is the whole point. The beauty of e-cigs is the flexibility. It's a custom fit for an individuals particular "dilemma" they got stuck with from smoking.

"Dilemma"... Can we all agree we have a nicotine dilemma and just leave it at that?

 

[Rickajho]

Snicker.

Ah yes, I remember how fast the "Congratulations!" and "Good for you!" turned into, "I'll buy you a pack, please smoke, I'm begging you!!!"

You don't want to be anywhere near me during nicotine withdrawal. You probably don't want to be in the same state and may even consider traveling abroad...

Mark, I don't mean to piddle on your point but it was the quit smoking withdrawal that was the problem.

Personally, I've gone for 48 hours in the hospital without vaping and everyone there managed to survive. (And if anyone is wondering - yeah, I had my PV with me too. It was simply a non issue.) I have a very different relationship with vaping and any nicotine I may be getting from it than I did with smoking.

 

[mkbilbo]

And as for the [Other Stuff]...apparently free speech has it's limits on public forums. Ask you teachers or professors or research it on your own for drug addiction replacement therapy. That's not directed towards anyone in particular just found that it was unnecessary censorship as I was not promoting or glorifying drug use in any way. I was simply stating historical facts that can be found in any high school or college history text book...at least when I was growing up. Not sure how far p.c. has gone now days to erase history.

No it's automatic censoring and there are good reasons for having it. The fact that it's a bit "ham fisted" is because of the state of software in general. "Context" is beyond the grasp of computer software at this point. Humans have to do that. But ECF is flat out huge (we're coming up on 21,000 active members right now). Imagine the size of the staff you'd need to patrol every single conversation to check to see what context what is being discussed. And who's going to pay for a staff like that?

(I haven't a clue about the "business side" of this place but I highly doubt the owners are sipping champagne that flows freely from gold faucets on their yachts.)

There is, of course, an awareness that ECF, being the biggest vape forum around, is very visible. I landed in this place because just about any e-cig/vape related Google will return results from ECF on the first page, at or near the top. There's a certain responsibility to the vape community at large. The way we (as in ECF) conduct ourselves is very public. I'm sure you would agree there need to be rules. Problem is, enforcement. The software can be told to block certain things but cannot make "judgement calls". The mods use the tools they have to hand. If we could hand them more sophisticated software tools, maybe they would deal with the issue differently. But that's purely in the realm of speculation, there are no more sophisticated software tools. They just don't yet exist. Natural language processing (an area I wanted to get into by the way and which fascinates me to no end) is in its infancy. Check back in 22nd century. I'm sure we'll have made some headway then.

It's not "PC" anything. It's practicality. The mods have to use the tools they have to hand. Not tools that may someday be invented. And they made a judgement call to block certain things to discourage a kind of talk that I, myself, agree should be discouraged. If nothing else, it's "off topic".

Gotta cut 'em some slack. Running a place this big? Blows my mind. I've run forums on a smaller scale. I can't imagine keeping a place this big going. The fact that it works so well is pretty freaking awesome. They do a good job. They do a great job. The sheer size of this place? Me, I would've run away screaming 10,000 users ago. If not sooner.

 

[mkbilbo]

The facts of the success of the patch and gum is 1.7%, before adjustments.

Erm... <cough>statistical noise<cough>

Excuse me! Allergies and... stuff.

No one knows about ecigs, since it is not considered a smoking cessation therapy. I am a full time cancer researcher for a well-known Institution, and the success rate of most medicines is a travesty and a tragedy. You would be very surprised if you understood how it really works.

Coming from a family just rampant with people in the healthcare field, I've discovered the more you know about the actual state of medicine, the more you want to go live in a cave.



Okay, no. The truth is, human medical science is new. It's in its infancy. We can do some amazing things and have made some great advances but we're literally just barely scratching the surface. We haven't even known about DNA that long.

My mom had knee replacement surgery a while back. They're still using hammers and chisels. Hammers and chisels! We think of ourselves as "advanced" but we're not. Not really. We're just getting started. It hasn't been that long in our history we didn't even know doctors should wash their hands!

I told mom along the way that the day of "real medicine" will be when instead of hammers and chisels, you get an injection and grow a new knee. We'll get there. Just not next week...

 

[sam12six]

As I understand your dilemma, the problem is that people tell you, "You are addicted to something. Addiction is bad.", and you have no response.

How about this? "There is nothing wrong with addiction."

Sure, they'll come back with junkies stealing TVs to get a fix, but you can just ask if they think you're running around at night stealing Tvs (and if you are, stop!!). As plenty of others have stated, we're ALL addicted to lots of things.

The problem as I see it is that someone tells you you are doing something bad and you accept it. My personal criterion for morally wrong is deliberately hurting myself or someone else (whether that's physically, emotionally, financially, whatever). If YOUR personal criterion for morally wrong is what someone else tells you is wrong, then you've really got only 2 choices - stop doing what they don't like, or live your own life and accept that some people won't like it. No matter what argument you muster, chances are that you will never be able to convince anyone that is ballzy enough to tell you how you should live your life that they are wrong because if they could acknowledge the possibility that your judgment is as good as theirs then they wouldn't try to tell you how to live.

 

[mkbilbo]

Couldn't agree more. The many off topic comments provided by OP have caused a lot of the confusion. What does the Aztecs enslavement of the popultion have to do with the original post, as one of many examples.

Not to mention that's a side trip and a half as the idea caffeine was used that way strikes me, in a word, as "ludicrous". The Aztec get smeared a lot in history. But, well, history is written by the conquerors...