A GENERAL VAPING DISCUSSION !.

[evan le'garde]

Would you consider chain smoking/vaping to be a habit formed out of Nicotine Abuse or out of Nicotine addiction ?. How much nicotine does a smoker/vaper need ?. Is someone who goes from sixty cigarettes a day to vaping the equivalent, or more, amount of nicotine per day an abuser or an addict ?. What would happen if they were to stop using nicotine altogether overnight ?. How and when did YOU start smoking, and how much ?. Was it through peer pressure when you were young ?, or did you just start smoking socially as an adult ?. Maybe you enjoyed smoking whilst drinking your morning coffee or whatever. Do these habit forming activites which become routine compound your addiction ?.

I'd just like to highlight the fact that substance abuse is a real thing and that the world seems to have conveniently forgotten all about it. Which i think is a perfectly good subject for debate in a forum such as ECF.

So maybe a yes or no might be sufficient. Should the use of nicotine via vaping or even smoking be considered by you as either substance abuse ?, or substance addiction ?. Nicotine is quite simply just a poison after all. It doesn't alter you consciousness, not that i know of, and serves no real purpose at all really. Unlike many other substances which i'd consider to be abused by many.

And i'm not sure how some members will respond if examples of the uses of other substances are used to describe what addiction can be like for some people. Because someone might report it as being off topic and have this thread closed.

Having said that, if you would like to use examples of addiction or abuse, (as a yard stick) of other substances as examples of how much control addiction to a substance can have over an addict, then maybe you should.


Questioning the belief of nicotine addiction could help people to think otherwise. Which is a good thing !. Writing it off as addction doesn't really help those who want to quit completely, it just serves to compound their belief in their own addiction.

A pre-emptive SORRY to anyone who doesn't understand what this thread is about. FYI, It's about whether the use of nicotine in vaping or smoking is considered to be either abuse or addiction by those who use it.

Mike.

 

[Coyote628]

That's a hard call. Just like caffeine, I thoroughly enjoy it. Addiction? Maybe. Abuse? No. I use far less juice now than when I first started vaping. Takes me a couple weeks to get through a 60ml bottle of 6mg juice. I used to empty a 120ml in a week at first, but I was coming off 42 yrs of cigarettes. Like I said, I enjoy the mild effects of nicotine the same way I enjoy my morning coffee, though I enjoy nicotine all day. Addiction is a problem when it becomes a problem. As in detrimental to health, which I cant tell it is. Cigarette smoke most certainly is detrimental but nicotine without the carcinogens and other toxic chemicals doesn't seem to be any more harmful, to my personal physiology anyway, than caffeine. And right now, at this moment, my coffee and my jasmine boba tea vape are playing together nicely. Why would I even consider not enjoying this?

 

[Opinionated]

I don't know about nicotine addiction perse.

I know with smoking I was actually addicted. I began smoking when I was 13, and at one point I couldn't quit when I wanted to (27 y/o), and I could not quit later when it was affecting my health (40 y/o) and even with vaping I went through some fairly serious withdrawals from quitting smoking.(45 y/o)

That was all addiction.

Over the last year I was pretty stressed out. At one point my stress level hit the roof and I wanted a cigarette. Badly.

The problem at the time was that I had quit all nicotine use, and was only taking a puff or two of zero-nicotine ejuice every couple of days, less than not much...

And here I was in a hotel miles from home without any nicotine to keep the stress of the moment at bay.

At any rate I made it home and began using nicotine again, and still haven't stopped even though my stress level is back to normal... that was all about 8 months or so ago.

But the question for me really is, am I addicted to the nicotine? Or addicted to the cigarette?

I think for me the nicotine is what keeps me from running to the nearest convenience store to buy a pack of cigarettes in a moment of weakness...

And the vaping zero nicotine periodically is what keeps me from eating out of a hand to mouth habit I developed when I was younger and started smoking.

that's my thoughts. I still think it's all about addiction to cigarettes.

I think the only way we will ever be able to see anything concrete in regards to the addictive properties of vaping nicotine itself, is to track never smokers who vape with nicotine over time because all that can really be seen in long time smokers like myself is a continuing addiction to cigarettes, that will apparently, always be with me to one degree or another.

 

[evan le'garde]

I started smoking John Player Special when i was in the first year of comprehensive school (i think that's 8th grade to you folks). There were these fir trees which ran round the outside of the fence of the school caretakers house about 100 metres across the school playing field from the school building. They were about four metres tall and all quite close to one another, so much so that they created a nice place to hide and have a smoke. So you can imagine about a dozen or so 11 and 12 year old kids hiding away behind there every break time, and even between lessons, . We became used to that. It just became routine. And every now and again we'd get chased out of there by whatever teacher was feeling energetic that day. Couple of years later we'd still be doing something similar. Our comprehensive was split into two parts. The building which taught the first two years was on one side of the school playing field, and six hundred metres across that field was the other much bigger building which taught the final three years. By this time we'd become so arrogant about smoking we'd all be standing outside the school gate in a large group smoking away just before school and again right after school. During breaks we'd be round the back of the building where the school's kitchen was located all smoking it up. This was as far back as fourty years ago and those buildings have all been knocked down and new schools have been built in their place, along with a few houses.

Now i think back, i'd say this was a social habit, and i think it has continued to be that way ever since. Of the five years i was supposed to be at that school i only really attended it for about maybe between two or three years (probably a lot less, we'd have registrations at the beginning and end of the school day, so we'd attend then leave, then return to school just for that, , because it would show on record that we were there). The rest of the time was spent either at a mates or my house (whilst parents were at work) all playing cards, smoking and drinking coffee or tea, or down at the sea front in the local Amusement Arcade on the pier playing Defender for a few hours, all tucked away round the back smoking and drinking coffee (actually hot chocolate from the vending machine if i recall correctly). So whilst you folks, who are 50ish years old, were sat at a desk doing maths or whatever, i was playing video games, specifically Defender. I've been playing video games ever since.

Smoking for me was always a social habit back then. We picked up other habits during that same period of time but they didn't last.

I don't think it would matter to me if i didn't have access to nicotine nor vaping. And i wouldn't agree if someone told me that i am addcted to any of it. I'm more addicted to video games. And believe it or not still play Defender, on the PS2 and PS3 ! (The most dynamic video game ever created by far). I love retro gaming but only with specific games. They're great for passing the time. And i really wouldn't know what to do with my hands if i couldn't play. Anyway i digress a little but video games do have a certain attraction, call it addiction if you want. Can you believe i'm fifty years old and still play video games ?. Christ !, the games i play are nearly as old as i am !. So yeah, i should be more concerned about my long term habit of playing video games than i should with nicotine. I don't know what i'd do without them !.

Splinter Cell, Splinter Cell Pandora Tomorrow, Splinter Cell Chaos Theory, Splinter Cell Double Agent, Splinter Cell Blacklist all on PS2 or PS3. Classics ! all of them. I just play them in order, and when i'm done go back to the start and play them all again. Some days i get up turn on one of my PS3's and just game all day then go to bed. Defender on the PS2 is better than on the PS3, (which is the sole reason i have a couple of PS2's, one's in mint condition - gotta have a back up - still window shopping to back that up too - love the ebay auctions for that if nothing else) i'll play that for a few hours, turn it over half a dozen times and then maybe play Portal 2 or something else, yep, then go to bed !. .

This is quite a serious addiction. And very time consuming. I have a bigger relationship with this than i have with nicotine. What do you do with your spare time which would qualify as an addiction that you'd like to compare with your nicotine habit ?. And i hope this post properly illustrates "MY" gaming addiction compared to "MY" nicotine habit. It nearly gets in the way of my daily exercise routine of cycling which is purely for exercise.

 

[englishmick]

I think smoking alters your brain permanently. I've read some biochemical stuff about pathways that were beyond my ken. I know that people who quit can pick up a cig decades later and be back in the saddle immediately. You are never really free of it.

Vaping keeps it at bay, for me anyway. Still think of cigs when I get stressed but as long as I have a vape it goes away. I suspect I would have problems if I quit vaping tomorrow. I would be craving either a vape or a cig. Don't know if that makes it an addiction.

I'm older than you, I started playing Missile Command in the pubs when it first came out. That got to be some kind of addiction. A few years ago they brought out a legacy version for PC and I picked it up. Got a trackball mouse. It wasn't the same though. After a while I started getting pain in my mouse fingers and had to quit. Fun for a while though.

 

[sonicbomb]

I smoked for 25 years and I've been quit for 10. If I can't vape I get stressed and miss vaping, I do not crave a cigarette. The idea of smoking now revolts me. The vile taste, the burning airway, the lingering noisome aroma in my clothes and on my hands, yuck.

Addict, or not, getting your nicotine from vaping rather than smoking WILL save your life.

 

[CagedSpam]

In a perfect world only the person affected or "using" could determine if it is/was abuse or addiction. I was for sure addicted to smokes. It kind of bummed me out after a while.

I do believe it is a drug. Combine that with the hand to mouth motion, and it's a pretty good one.

Still vaping nicotine but have lost the urgent need for a smoke every hour or so.

Also a gamer

 

[Rossum]

Would you consider chain smoking/vaping to be a habit formed out of Nicotine Abuse or out of Nicotine addiction ?. How much nicotine does a smoker/vaper need ?. Is someone who goes from sixty cigarettes a day to vaping the equivalent, or more, amount of nicotine per day an abuser or an addict ?. What would happen if they were to stop using nicotine altogether overnight ?. How and when did YOU start smoking, and how much ?. Was it through peer pressure when you were young ?, or did you just start smoking socially as an adult ?. Maybe you enjoyed smoking whilst drinking your morning coffee or whatever. Do these habit forming activites which become routine compound your addiction ?.

I'd just like to highlight the fact that substance abuse is a real thing and that the world seems to have conveniently forgotten all about it. Which i think is a perfectly good subject for debate in a forum such as ECF.

So maybe a yes or no might be sufficient. Should the use of nicotine via vaping or even smoking be considered by you as either substance abuse ?, or substance addiction ?. Nicotine is quite simply just a poison after all. It doesn't alter you consciousness, not that i know of, and serves no real purpose at all really. Unlike many other substances which i'd consider to be abused by many.

And i'm not sure how some members will respond if examples of the uses of other substances are used to describe what addiction can be like for some people. Because someone might report it as being off topic and have this thread closed.

Having said that, if you would like to use examples of addiction or abuse, (as a yard stick) of other substances as examples of how much control addiction to a substance can have over an addict, then maybe you should.


Questioning the belief of nicotine addiction could help people to think otherwise. Which is a good thing !. Writing it off as addction doesn't really help those who want to quit completely, it just serves to compound their belief in their own addiction.

A pre-emptive SORRY to anyone who doesn't understand what this thread is about. FYI, It's about whether the use of nicotine in vaping or smoking is considered to be either abuse or addiction by those who use it.

Mike.

It's not "abuse" or "addition" because there's no quantifiable harm.

 

[vaper1960]

Just wanted to say that almost all of us have some forms of addiction... nicotine, caffeine, alcohol, sex, drugs, over-eating, power, control, money... the list goes on.
Also, I do believe nicotine does have some redeeming qualities (is that the right for for it?) It is a mental stimulant (like how writers back in the day would smoke a pipe)

 

[CMD-Ky]

Every activity that I would like to otherwise eliminate is an addiction, stopping creates intolerable withdrawal effects therefore it is out of my control and therefore I am not responsible for my behavior.
Easy Peasy

 

[evan le'garde]

I think smoking alters your brain permanently. I've read some biochemical stuff about pathways that were beyond my ken. I know that people who quit can pick up a cig decades later and be back in the saddle immediately. You are never really free of it.

Vaping keeps it at bay, for me anyway. Still think of cigs when I get stressed but as long as I have a vape it goes away. I suspect I would have problems if I quit vaping tomorrow. I would be craving either a vape or a cig. Don't know if that makes it an addiction.

I'm older than you, I started playing Missile Command in the pubs when it first came out. That got to be some kind of addiction. A few years ago they brought out a legacy version for PC and I picked it up. Got a trackball mouse. It wasn't the same though. After a while I started getting pain in my mouse fingers and had to quit. Fun for a while though.

Tricky game Missile command, with the ball controller, Marble Madness was just as hard and i was useless at both . Another game i was totally addicted to was "Bomb Jack". I could play all day on one coin. I think around 26,000,000+ was the best i ever got on that, as far as i can recollect. I used to think i was the best in the world at that. That notion was based on the fact that i started when the arcade opened and finished when it closed, again, instead of school. God , haven't seen any one of those for an age, though i do have Marble Madness for the PS2, still no good at it though !. Though Bomb Jack, that was definitely another addiction.

 

[Skeebo]

Coffee and nicotine are my two major vices.... and I am not willing to live without either, nor are those around me willing to live with me when I go without.

Addiction is a fine line. Does it make my life unmanageable? I am more observant of my beer consumption than I am of either coffee or nicotine. I am one of those who feel both caffeine and nicotine are harmless, the latter as long as it's not in the combustible form.

Since I have started vaping I have never thought of quitting, which is so unlike the mindset I had when I smoked. Don't get me wrong, I applaud those who use vaping as a way to quit altogether. It's just not my thang.

BTW, good post. Definitely food for thought.....

 

[Javichu]

I smoked for 25 years and I've been quit for 10. If I can't vape I get stressed and miss vaping, I do not crave a cigarette. The idea of smoking now revolts me. The vile taste, the burning airway, the lingering noisome aroma in my clothes and on my hands, yuck.

Addict, or not, getting your nicotine from vaping rather than smoking WILL save your life.

Ditto,smoke free since november 2018 and now i cant even stand close to people that smoke.
I get the same weird sensation in my stomach when i smell brussel sprouts hehe,i just cant tolerate it.

Coffee and nicotine are my two major vices.... and I am not willing to live without either, nor are those around me willing to live with me when I go without.

Addiction is a fine line. Does it make my life unmanageable? I am more observant of my beer consumption than I am of either coffee or nicotine. I am one of those who feel both caffeine and nicotine are harmless, the latter as long as it's not in the combustible form.

Since I have started vaping I have never thought of quitting, which is so unlike the mindset I had when I smoked. Don't get me wrong, I applaud those who use vaping as a way to quit altogether. It's just not my thang.

BTW, good post. Definitely food for thought.....

Yep buddy,same with me.
Ive always been a work owl,for more than 25 years i worked at night,mostly dj at clubs and work in the radio so in the morning all i want is a nice short expresso to vape,until ive had my coffee im like a zombie,takes me a while to get the ol' engine running hehe

Coffee for me has to be short and strong none of that ''latte with 2% milk warm but not hot,2 shots espresso, double pump of vanilla,one pump of coco,whip cream,chocolate shavings on top along with a nice red cherry'' rofl i mean nothing against people that order stuff like that but wow!!
Morning ritual for me is to wake up my pops,help him get dressed up,make him breakfast and if its a nice day outside ill let him have breakfast in the terrace,make him take his meds then its ''me'' time.

Make some freshly squeezed orange juice,toast with tomato paste and olive oil (tomato paste is typical here in Spain instead of butter and jam,its just fresh tomatoes slightly blended and then added to the toast and then a healthy dose of olive oil)
After breakfast comes my espresso,i always put on the same song while i have my espresso and vape:



That has become my morning ritual

Since i quit smoking and started vaping i dont crave cigarettes in any way,just not something that comes to mind,will never go back to it.
Funny story,lost my e-liquid on a saturday afternoon,local vape shop closed and i was running on empty so looked around for stores that ''could'' have e-liquid.
Not one place had but i had a tobacco shop close to my house and they carry juuls and some pod stuff so i decided to give it a try,luckily they had some liquids to choose from but in retrospect even if they didnt have any i wouldnt have bought a pack of cigarettes for the weekend.

For some maybe they enjoy more smoking but for me i really and truly enjoy more vaping,i mean the list of pluses is huge:
-food taste better (pops was a chef and i love to cook)
-health wise it's just adding years to your life if you vape instead of smoking
-less colds,i mean i use to have mild to strong colds all the time,now i barely get sick except for my allergies
-Lung capacity is way better,2 weeks after i quit smoking i could tell i was getting better since i could walk up stairs and not get out of breath like i use to
-smell in the house,oh man my house stank to high heavens,now i can notice it when i visit someone's home and they are smokers,it just stinks up the place.
And the list goes on and on,i for one am grateful i found a way to quit smoking.

 

[smacuser]

Addiction likely leads to rock bottom if not treated.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

I'm an abusive addict & an addicted abuser.

 

[smacuser]

Way to lighten the subject .

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

It's all true. The world is not black and white.

 

[Coyote628]

Ditto,smoke free since november 2018 and now i cant even stand close to people that smoke.
I get the same weird sensation in my stomach when i smell brussel sprouts hehe,i just cant tolerate it.




Yep buddy,same with me.
Ive always been a work owl,for more than 25 years i worked at night,mostly dj at clubs and work in the radio so in the morning all i want is a nice short expresso to vape,until ive had my coffee im like a zombie,takes me a while to get the ol' engine running hehe

Coffee for me has to be short and strong none of that ''latte with 2% milk warm but not hot,2 shots espresso, double pump of vanilla,one pump of coco,whip cream,chocolate shavings on top along with a nice red cherry'' rofl i mean nothing against people that order stuff like that but wow!!
Morning ritual for me is to wake up my pops,help him get dressed up,make him breakfast and if its a nice day outside ill let him have breakfast in the terrace,make him take his meds then its ''me'' time.

Make some freshly squeezed orange juice,toast with tomato paste and olive oil (tomato paste is typical here in Spain instead of butter and jam,its just fresh tomatoes slightly blended and then added to the toast and then a healthy dose of olive oil)
After breakfast comes my espresso,i always put on the same song while i have my espresso and vape:



That has become my morning ritual

Since i quit smoking and started vaping i dont crave cigarettes in any way,just not something that comes to mind,will never go back to it.
Funny story,lost my e-liquid on a saturday afternoon,local vape shop closed and i was running on empty so looked around for stores that ''could'' have e-liquid.
Not one place had but i had a tobacco shop close to my house and they carry juuls and some pod stuff so i decided to give it a try,luckily they had some liquids to choose from but in retrospect even if they didnt have any i wouldnt have bought a pack of cigarettes for the weekend.

For some maybe they enjoy more smoking but for me i really and truly enjoy more vaping,i mean the list of pluses is huge:
-food taste better (pops was a chef and i love to cook)
-health wise it's just adding years to your life if you vape instead of smoking
-less colds,i mean i use to have mild to strong colds all the time,now i barely get sick except for my allergies
-Lung capacity is way better,2 weeks after i quit smoking i could tell i was getting better since i could walk up stairs and not get out of breath like i use to
-smell in the house,oh man my house stank to high heavens,now i can notice it when i visit someone's home and they are smokers,it just stinks up the place.
And the list goes on and on,i for one am grateful i found a way to quit smoking.

Hey now, you leave Brussels sprouts outta this. They are good. As long as you're not smoking or vaping them anyway

 

[mikepetro]

My own personal definition of addiction is - can I put it down without feeling adverse effects. Caffeine and nicotine definitely fit that definition for me. Addiction (to me) can have varying degrees. Are the adverse effects manageable? Does continued use make my life unmanageable? Caffeine and nicotine do not currently make my life unmanageable so I am willing to continue to satisfy my cravings and/or desires for them.

Again, for me, use of alcohol and other stronger drugs ultimately made my life unmanageable. Wrecked cars, lost jobs, ruined relationships, and the list goes on. Addiction at that level, for me, is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

And I did.....
32 years clean/sober.

 

[dripster]

Would you consider chain smoking/vaping to be a habit formed out of Nicotine Abuse or out of Nicotine addiction ?.

No. Nicotine is not inherently addictive, as the addictiveness of nicotine depends on the delivery system (specifically, the level of nicotine that is absorbed, and how fast it crosses the blood-brain barrier), and also it depends on other key important factors (such as the presence of other substances in the mix, or "cocktail", that contains the nicotine, some links to genetical inheritance, the social environment, peer-pressure, psychological instabilities and a variety of stressors that give a person the tendency to be susceptible to addictions, and etc.)

How much nicotine does a smoker/vaper need ?.

42

Is someone who goes from sixty cigarettes a day to vaping the equivalent, or more, amount of nicotine per day an abuser or an addict ?.

No. Harm reduction is the exact opposite of abuse, and should therefore be promoted. There is no need to tack on the term "addict" in your sentence. The term only insults the core essential goal of harm reduction.

What would happen if they were to stop using nicotine altogether overnight ?.

Withdrawal symptoms would kick in as a result from having smoked sixty cigarettes a day. Vaping nicotine is what helps to suppress these symptoms, which correctly explains why they would kick in soon after they are no longer being suppressed, and, there is no scientific evidence to support the claim that vaping nicotine can cause these symptoms. (No longer suppressing them is not the same thing as causing them, lest someone wants to suggest that painkillers cause pain for the fact pain happens after a person stops using painkillers.)

How and when did YOU start smoking, and how much ?. Was it through peer pressure when you were young ?, or did you just start smoking socially as an adult ?.

About a quarter of a century ago at a party when I was young, yes peer pressure in cohort with important psychological stressors and social environment, 16-17 cigarettes a day on average soon after.

Maybe you enjoyed smoking whilst drinking your morning coffee or whatever. Do these habit forming activites which become routine compound your addiction ?.

No. And, no, I am currently no longer addicted so they don't, nor actually ever did.

I'd just like to highlight the fact that substance abuse is a real thing and that the world seems to have conveniently forgotten all about it. Which i think is a perfectly good subject for debate in a forum such as ECF.

No. An unbiased scientific debate about it in places like this is completely out of the question.

So maybe a yes or no might be sufficient.

Yes. My answer is still no.

Should the use of nicotine via vaping or even smoking be considered by you as either substance abuse ?, or substance addiction ?.

Smoking, yes. Vaping, no, as harm reduction is the exact opposite of abuse, and, the whole idea of trying to confound harm reduction with addiction is immoral.

Nicotine is quite simply just a poison after all.

No. Nicotine has certain benefits, which has already been correctly pointed out in your other thread that got closed.

It doesn't alter you consciousness, not that i know of,

Nicotine improves alertness and short-term memory functions, relieves stress, and intensifies enjoyment of pleasurable sensory stimuli. It does alter the brain at the cellular level so it is not benign, yet, it is relatively harmless in spite of this fact.

and serves no real purpose at all really.

Incorrect. It can be used to prevent Alzheimer's disease, among a few other useful purposes like reducing the harm caused by smoking combustible tobacco. Combustible tobacco smoke is still the leading cause of preventable death, killing 480,000 Americans each year.

Unlike many other substances which i'd consider to be abused by many.

See above. The goal of preventing death is a serious purpose.

And i'm not sure how some members will respond if examples of the uses of other substances are used to describe what addiction can be like for some people. Because someone might report it as being off topic and have this thread closed.

That was entirely to be expected. Combustible tobacco smoke contains substances many of which are undisclosed substances, as the cigarette manufacturers can not legally be forced to publicize all the ingredients so, technically speaking, combustible tobacco smoke addiction is an addiction to "other substances". The nicotine in combustible tobacco smoke plays a critical essential role as for the explanation why combustible tobacco smoke is highly addictive, but this does not in any way imply that nicotine, in and of itself, is inherently addictive. There's no scientific evidence to support the claim that it is.

Having said that, if you would like to use examples of addiction or abuse, (as a yard stick) of other substances as examples of how much control addiction to a substance can have over an addict, then maybe you should.


Questioning the belief of nicotine addiction could help people to think otherwise. Which is a good thing !. Writing it off as addction doesn't really help those who want to quit completely, it just serves to compound their belief in their own addiction.

A pre-emptive SORRY to anyone who doesn't understand what this thread is about. FYI, It's about whether the use of nicotine in vaping or smoking is considered to be either abuse or addiction by those who use it.

Mike.