is retail juice a sustainable business?

[Tee_Jay]

Hello all.. I started doing DIY recently and after realizing how cheap and simple it is, this thought occurred to me: Retail vape juice seems like a false economy.

It's 10 to 20 times cheaper to mix your own than it is to buy from a shop. Even just to buy flavourless, zero nic juice in the shops where i live, it's still 20$ for 30 ml.. And of course, a bottle of flavoured 24 mg cost the same as a bottle of 3 mg, which both cost the same as 0 mg flavourless.

Yet, you could spend 8$ on a 500 ml bottle of vg, and mix your bottle of 24 in to about 6 bottles of 4 mg, and have some vg to spare. that's 20$ for 1 bottle of 4 mg, or 28$ for 6 bottles.

To buy plain old vg in a vape shop, you pay 10 to 20 times the price as you pay at a drugstore. Pg is the same, it's just a little harder to find.

My point isn't to knock vape shops. I think selling juice must be a big part of their business. having owned/operated retail business (not vape related) I totally understand that they need the high margin juice to survive as a brick/mortar store. It would be very hard for them to survive if everyone was buying juice from drug stores and doing any element of DIY.

But is it sustainable? Have you ever talked to a vape shop owner or staff about DIY juice? I've mentioned it in passing before at a few places and the reaction is like they're in denial or something. I don't mean that in a bad way- it's just that maybe they can't bring themselves to imagine that once the fact that you can buy pg/vg at drug stores - even without buying nic on line (which makes the problem worse) becomes common knowledge - almost no one will buy 30 ml bottles of juice for $20. In the long term, the retail price is probably going to land around $3. So what i'm saying is that a large (and probably most profitable) part of a vape shops business seems unsustainable. What do you think?

 

[dannyv45]

I know several shop owners and like any other retail business it has it's ups and downs. Although DIY is catching on and in spite of the FDA rulings I don't see many shops closing. So I would guess if your a good business man and know how to handle the present business climate then yes this could be a sustainable business. Never the less in this uncertain time of unpopular legislation and regulation you should really understand the business and the market area in which you want to conduct this venture.

 

[Tee_Jay]

I know several shop owners and like any other retail business it has it's ups and downs. Although DIY is catching on and in spite of the FDA rulings I don't see many shops closing. So I would guess if your a good business man and know how to handle the present business climate then yes this could be a sustainable business.

I agree that a 'vape shop' could be a sustainable business.. but do you think that selling juice at current prices is a sustainable component of a successful vape shop's business model? for most shops, i think they'd be struggling if all of a sudden, no one was willing to pay more than say, $3 per bottle..

 

[dannyv45]

As I said in this uncertain time of unpopular legislation and regulation you should really understand the business and the market area in which you want to conduct this venture. There is no one answer for each situation or application of a business plan. All you can do is be sure your business plan is well thought out. If you have something unique to offer that can't be easily reproduced then yes you can succeed. But if your product is run of the mill or down right disgusting you will fail. Take a look at some of the bigger juice manufactures that are thriving like Halo, dekang, Hangsen and some of the smaller mom and pop online retailers like OSD, ecig,MFS,RTS etc.. that have grown tremendously. They have something unique to offer that can't be easily reproduced or they have a sound marketing plan as well as strong leadership to execute a business plan. This is not an easy business to succeed in and many of these business started out as Mom and Pop brick and mortar shops. If you have the drive and passion for it then I think you can succeed.

 

[puffon]

I've found many vapers are not aware you can DIY, don't go online to buy gear, don't know there are vape forums, and know nothing about the FDA Deeming, other than it was only passed to shut down sales to minors.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

DIY e liquid is nothing new, folks have been making their own for as long as vaping has been around.
IMO, Competition so to speak (B&M vs DIY) isn't about cost per ml, it is about convenience.
Some folks don't have the time or any desire to fiddle around with making their own.

So, as far as current prices go, many will pay whatever it costs for the convenience.
Enough folks to make retail e liquid sustainable?, no, the FDA is killing that.

 

[OlderNDirt]

I can only speak for myself and how my preferences reflect on my vape shop which has already dropped their juice prices a fair amount. Although I am getting into DIY, I have a few of their shop flavors I will continue with cause they are just that good. I will continue to buy those juices until the cost becomes excessive, most likely from taxation. And I will make some other purchases even though their price may be a bit higher just to do my part to keep them open and running. Given the volatile nature of the industry right now, I want every purchasing option available as long as possible.

I will continue expanding my DIY for some good juices and continue with store purchases. As long as there are others like me as well as the many that have no clue on DIY, I expect/hope a good number of shops will remain open. As long as those outside factors (re: taxation authorities) stay out of it and we current vapers show shops some love, there is still a chance.

 

[zoiDman]

Hello all.. I started doing DIY recently and after realizing how cheap and simple it is, this thought occurred to me: Retail vape juice seems like a false economy.

It's 10 to 20 times cheaper to mix your own than it is to buy from a shop. Even just to buy flavourless, zero nic juice in the shops where i live, it's still 20$ for 30 ml.. And of course, a bottle of flavoured 24 mg cost the same as a bottle of 3 mg, which both cost the same as 0 mg flavourless.

Yet, you could spend 8$ on a 500 ml bottle of vg, and mix your bottle of 24 in to about 6 bottles of 4 mg, and have some vg to spare. that's 20$ for 1 bottle of 4 mg, or 28$ for 6 bottles.

To buy plain old vg in a vape shop, you pay 10 to 20 times the price as you pay at a drugstore. Pg is the same, it's just a little harder to find.

My point isn't to knock vape shops. I think selling juice must be a big part of their business. having owned/operated retail business (not vape related) I totally understand that they need the high margin juice to survive as a brick/mortar store. It would be very hard for them to survive if everyone was buying juice from drug stores and doing any element of DIY.

But is it sustainable? Have you ever talked to a vape shop owner or staff about DIY juice? I've mentioned it in passing before at a few places and the reaction is like they're in denial or something. I don't mean that in a bad way- it's just that maybe they can't bring themselves to imagine that once the fact that you can buy pg/vg at drug stores - even without buying nic on line (which makes the problem worse) becomes common knowledge - almost no one will buy 30 ml bottles of juice for $20. In the long term, the retail price is probably going to land around $3. So what i'm saying is that a large (and probably most profitable) part of a vape shops business seems unsustainable. What do you think?

I think a Question you Should ask is How Many People do (or have even Heard) of DIY? And moving forward to 8-8-18, how will this number Change?

DIY is a Household term here on the ECF. And Many see it as just Part of the Entire e-Cigarette scene.

But when you leave the Ethereal world of the Internet, and talk to the Other 90% ~ 95% of e-Cigarette users, people look at you kinda Differently when you mention DIY.

 

[BrotherBob]

The world will beat a path to your door if you have a product that everyone wants. That's the hard part.

 

[Tee_Jay]

I think a Question you Should ask is How Many People do (or have even Heard) of DIY? And moving forward to 8-8-18, how will this number Change?

DIY is a Household term here on the ECF. And Many see it as just Part of the Entire e-Cigarette scene.

But when you leave the Ethereal world of the Internet, and talk to the Other 90% ~ 95% of e-Cigarette users, people look at you kinda Differently when you mention DIY.

I get what you're saying.. but here is the delemna.. most people vape low nic (like 3-6 mg). Yet a lot of people (especially non-subohmers) vape higher nic (up to 24). So a good question to ask, is why don't vape shops sell 500 ml bottles USP glycerin for 8$? They can't because that puts a wrench in the whole business model around selling juice, wouldn't it?

Like i said, i don't mean to suggest anything negative about the retailers - that's the business model. if i were in that business i'd be making a plan for when juice profits are 1/10th of what they are now.

 

[VintageModMan]

I get what you're saying.. but here is the delemna.. most people vape low nic (like 3-6 mg). Yet a lot of people (especially non-subohmers) vape higher nic (up to 24). So a good question to ask, is why don't vape shops sell 500 ml bottles USP glycerin for 8$? They can't because that puts a wrench in the whole business model around selling juice, wouldn't it?

Like i said, i don't mean to suggest anything negative about the retailers - that's the business model. if i were in that business i'd be making a plan for when juice profits are 1/10th of what they are now.

I see what your saying here however you still have a market like any not everyone wants the hassle of DIY. They want their product and they want it now. No wait, no mess and no figuring out the right ratios. Not to mention if you have a great product and no one can seem to clone it your in good shape. Big retailer or small these all play into the question. Currently the fair market value is set. Unless some crazy legislature passes. I don't foresee prices dropping drastically. I don't endorse smoking I'm so grateful that vaping got me off cancer sticks however I will use this as an example.

We all know cancer sticks can be made at home buy a rolling machine, blanks and a bag of tobacco for a fraction of the price you would pay to buy packs of 20. So why didn't their prices drop drastically. The market had a sustainable product and "trusted brands" sometimes people are loyal to brands and don't care about cost. Also lots of people like just walking into a store buying what they want then walking out. Same with juice. So in my opinion planning that far ahead at this point would be redundant to say the least. So yes I believe it is still a sustainable market.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Train2]

First, it's going away totally unless the law is changed. So let's pretend for a minute that the FDA regs are squashed, and a shop can continue to mix and sell liquid.

IF that were to happen - then personally, I think it's just about the ONLY sustainable business model.
Mods don't have the markup or purchase frequency to support a storefront. Coils and other disposables are too cheap, and online competition, leaves liquid as the only real opportunity for cash flow.

MOST people don't want to DIY, plus, there's a talent factor - if a shop can create a popular juice line, they can profitably do repeat business with an ever-growing customer base. They can even compete online for more reach and have a chance to gain a national foothold with a winning creative recipe.

But again - it all hinges on the FDA regs getting overturned.
As things stand currently, all vape shops are doomed.


Edit - there COULD be a few shops. There may be enough of a market to sustain a vape shop that only sells the approved stuff. A couple of the "Pod" type models that might get licensed, and their refills. And the 2 or 3 (if any) surviving juice brands.

Hello all.. I started doing DIY recently and after realizing how cheap and simple it is, this thought occurred to me: Retail vape juice seems like a false economy.

It's 10 to 20 times cheaper to mix your own than it is to buy from a shop. Even just to buy flavourless, zero nic juice in the shops where i live, it's still 20$ for 30 ml.. And of course, a bottle of flavoured 24 mg cost the same as a bottle of 3 mg, which both cost the same as 0 mg flavourless.

Yet, you could spend 8$ on a 500 ml bottle of vg, and mix your bottle of 24 in to about 6 bottles of 4 mg, and have some vg to spare. that's 20$ for 1 bottle of 4 mg, or 28$ for 6 bottles.

To buy plain old vg in a vape shop, you pay 10 to 20 times the price as you pay at a drugstore. Pg is the same, it's just a little harder to find.

My point isn't to knock vape shops. I think selling juice must be a big part of their business. having owned/operated retail business (not vape related) I totally understand that they need the high margin juice to survive as a brick/mortar store. It would be very hard for them to survive if everyone was buying juice from drug stores and doing any element of DIY.

But is it sustainable? Have you ever talked to a vape shop owner or staff about DIY juice? I've mentioned it in passing before at a few places and the reaction is like they're in denial or something. I don't mean that in a bad way- it's just that maybe they can't bring themselves to imagine that once the fact that you can buy pg/vg at drug stores - even without buying nic on line (which makes the problem worse) becomes common knowledge - almost no one will buy 30 ml bottles of juice for $20. In the long term, the retail price is probably going to land around $3. So what i'm saying is that a large (and probably most profitable) part of a vape shops business seems unsustainable. What do you think?

 

[Tee_Jay]

The analogy of rolling your own is a good one, and explains why so few are ordering nic and flavouring on line. That's total DIY.

But buying a 30 ml bottle of 24 mg and mixing it up with 100 ml to make 130 ml is not the same level of effort as total DIY, nor of rolling 100's of cigs. rolling your own cigs would save you about 50% cost and take hours of work, whereas just cutting high nic juice like mentioned above saves up to 80% cost and takes 2 min..

The fact that vape shops sell zero nic flavourless for same price as flavoured 24 mg is the delemna that's built in to the business model. It's a 'secret' that the zero nic is just the same vg/pg you get at a drug store for next to nothing..

Another question that's interesting is how then, must the business model change once that basic knowledge becomes common knowledge? Can the price of that 30 ml bottle go up to say 80$ so you can't save anything by cutting it? or do you stop selling high nic all together? seems more likely tome that you would have to drop your juice prices.

 

[DaveP]

If you are a MTL vaper, then juice isn't that expensive to buy pre-made. I vape around 10ml on an average day. $40 worth of vendor juice (four 50ml bottles) lasts me a month. Cloud machines are a different story, although many just vape plain old VG.

I went to DIY because the FDA seems to be after the juice maker shops with a requirement that they spend something like six figures to get their juices FDA approved. That's a separate fee for each flavor and each nic strength of that flavor. Before you know it, you could spend a million or two on FDA testing and approval for a juice lab with FDA inspections, possible fines, and expensive regulations looming. If you have 100 flavors they all have to be FDA approved and the fees paid for to get approved.

OTOH, the FDA hasn't attacked DIY at home vapers yet. Still, there's conjecture that says the FDA will outlaw private purchases of 100mg Nic base some time in the future. So, lots of us have purchased and frozen enough nic to get us a decade or two into the future.

 

[zoiDman]

I get what you're saying.. but here is the delemna.. most people vape low nic (like 3-6 mg). Yet a lot of people (especially non-subohmers) vape higher nic (up to 24). So a good question to ask, is why don't vape shops sell 500 ml bottles USP glycerin for 8$? They can't because that puts a wrench in the whole business model around selling juice, wouldn't it?

Like i said, i don't mean to suggest anything negative about the retailers - that's the business model. if i were in that business i'd be making a plan for when juice profits are 1/10th of what they are now.

It seems like there are Kinda 3 Separate lines of thought going on here when the term DIY is use.

One is regarding Flavored e-Liquids that contain Nicotine.
One is Un-Flavored e-Liquids that contain Nicotine.
One is Un-Flavored 0gm.

The last 2 are not Very Viable profit-wise for a B&M because of Internet Price Competition and Availability.
The 1st is Very Viable in an Unregulated Market. As long as people like the way a Companies e-Liquids Taste.

Also something to consider is that when a Person buys a Retail Flavored e-Liquid, they are Not Only paying for the Raw Ingredients, but they are Paying for the Flavoring Recipe that they can Not make themselves. Or that they Choose Not to Try to make themselves. Or that they Don't Understand that they May be able to make some "Close" to the Retail e-Liquid that they like, at a Significantly Smaller Cost.

As to if you were in Business making a Plan for when e-Liquid Profits were 1/10th of what they are Now for an Average Retailer?

The Answer is Simple. Your Plan is How do I get Out of My Current Leases? And How do I (Pun Intended) Liquidate any Physical Assets I may have in a Retail/Warehouse facility?

Because at 1/10th of Current Profit Margins on e-Liquids, there Aren't Many who would/could survive and still cover the Fixed Cost of running such a Business.

 

[VintageModMan]

If you are a MTL vaper, then juice isn't that expensive to buy pre-made. I vape around 10ml on an average day. $40 worth of vendor juice (four 50ml bottles) lasts me a month. Cloud machines are a different story, although many just vape plain old VG.

I went to DIY because the FDA seems to be after the juice maker shops with a requirement that they spend something like six figures to get their juices FDA approved. That's a separate fee for each flavor and each nic strength of that flavor. Before you know it, you could spend a million or two on FDA testing and approval for a juice lab with FDA inspections, possible fines, and expensive regulations looming. If you have 100 flavors they all have to be FDA approved and the fees paid for to get approved.

OTOH, the FDA hasn't attacked DIY at home vapers yet. Still, there's conjecture that says the FDA will outlaw private purchases of 100mg Nic base some time in the future. So, lots of us have purchased and frozen enough nic to get us a decade or two into the future.

Some of these shops if they are serious will reach out to a bottling service that covers all of that so they don't have to mess with it. Then they would just have the cost to produce the juice for them. But who knows. We will see when the FDA and big tobacco try to tear apart vaping for good. Sad thing. If they concentrated this much energy towards tobacco that business would be handicapped but when you make your money off of it....who cares (sarcasm)

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Mice Elf]

@Tee_Jay
Here's a fact that you apparently aren't aware of: almost everything is cheaper to DIY, from brain surgery to wine making.
That's not the test for any (intelligent) analysis. The test is "does a market exist or can a market be created for X, and why?".
A business can sustain itself by providing a level of service (high-disposable income sectors), a unique product (connoisseur sectors), or a substantial time/hassle savings (Amazon and Blue Apron).
So of course a market exists for juice retailers.
And no, retail juice is not a "false economy"; I don't think you know what that phrase means. It's defined as that which is "an apparent financial saving that in fact leads to greater expenditure."
And finally no, this claim isn't true either: "It would be very hard for them to survive if everyone was buying juice from drug stores and doing any element of DIY". If that were true both Home Depot and general contractors would simultaneously implode.

 

[pennysmalls]

I learned to DIY about 2 years ago but chose to continue buying vendor juices because 1) some of them are just down right delish and I'm not up to figuring out a clone recipe, 2) I want to support the vaping industry and 3) I knew that it would all end one day and wanted to partake for as long as I could.

With all that said if the golden age of vaping were to never end I'd most likely stick to vendor liquids as my main source and my DIY recipes just for fun. I use mechs and rebuild my atties on a regular basis but sometimes have trouble finding time for it so DIY for me right now would be pushing it as far as spare time goes. So yes, retail juice would be a sustainable business when customers like me exist.

 

[Tee_Jay]

Alright.. My thoughts on this are obviously offending some people.. apologies..

 

[Mice Elf]

Alright.. My thoughts on this are obviously offending some people.. apologies..

If that was to include myself, no you didn't offend me at all, and I hope the same is true for you.

But really, Tee_Jay, the good producers currently (and the good ones to come) will survive anything the legislature throws at them. There were over 300 wineries in Napa before prohibition. Some died, some lived. It's looking good around here now...