Kids are not my problem, who will think of the adults?

[IgnorantCig]

If people under a certain age are not allowed to purchase vape items, then what's the issue?

Just don't sell to any minors, and handle it like alcohol and tobacco. Go after any stores or vendors that break these rules and that sells to any minor and hit them with hefty fines or prosecution. Problem solved.

I reject the idiotic, false and unscientific argument that certain types of flavors are only suitable for kids. An adult is not allowed to like fruit flavors or desert flavors or any other type of flavor?

Do adults suddenly lose their sense of taste when they age, and they'll be content vaping poor tobacco imitation flavors and menthol for the rest of their lives?

I'm an adult, and my favorite flavors are custard type flavors. Just because I used to smoke, that doesn't mean that I should have to vape and like tobacco flavors. You don't ban all sorts of flavors and deny adults who are ex-smokers the opportunity to continue to be smoke free, just because they were lucky enough to have found and switched to vaping.

Sorry if I sound cynical, but so what if a handful of people have reportedly died because they were foolish enough to use blackmarket counterfeit items? Items that have zero to do with nic based vaping I should add.

How many millions of people die from tobacco related diseases?

Millions is a lot more than a handful last I checked, and the only thing that banning vaping and vaping related items will accomplish is to ensure that many more people will be added to the list of the dead as many will return to cigs and many current cig smokers will never make the switch to vaping, as the politicians seek to deny people the opportunity to stay off of cigs.

If they ever find a cure for cancer, I wouldn't be surprised if they ban that too, because 7 people happened to get some ill side effects from it.

 

[GOMuniEsq]

It's blatant age-based discrimination, and it's a ridiculous stopgap that will never be effective at its stated goal. It's bizarre that deaths from unrelated street drugs are being lamented in the same breath as restrictions on flavors in our lifesaving nicotine e-juice, simply because the method of consumption seems similar. If lawmakers can make this stick they'll have paved the way for all sorts of other unjust violations of our freedoms in the future.

 

[tA71ana]

I for one, am sick of Parents using their Kids to bludgeon other Adults with.
We need to start putting the onus back on Parents - now.
If they choose to abdicate the very fundamental responsibilities of Parenthood and expect others to do their dang job, then they should not be surprised when their Kids do or say things that they do not like or behave in ways that they do not approve of.

 

[bombastinator]

If people under a certain age are not allowed to purchase vape items, then what's the issue?

a couple of things. One big theory at the moment is money. There’s one argument this isn’t about public health at all but is fallout from the effects of the advent of e-cigarettes and cannabis legalization on the 2011 tobacco settlement.
1998 MSA? Not sure of the particulars

Another is the future of tobacco. Tobacco smoking kills people but it does it very slowly. The numbers are staggering in adults but near non existent in young people. Cigarette manufacturers need a constant supply of young smokers to keep their profits up. ANTZ changed their tone a few years ago. It used to be about deaths of smokers and the damage smoking does. They’re not giving that one even lip service anymore. Now it’s about addiction.

Just don't sell to any minors, and handle it like alcohol and tobacco.

that is the exact problem. Kids getting ahold of tobacco and liquor cannot be reduced to zero. B&M shops were actually doing a really good job of reducing sales to minors to near zero. Much better than most tobacco outlets. They’re the ones being punished by blanket flavor bans. Gas stations have HAD flavor bans in place for some time specifically because they sold to minors.

Go after any stores or vendors that break these rules and that sells to any minor and hit them with hefty fines or prosecution. Problem solved.

already done. Also see above

I reject the idiotic, false and unscientific argument that certain types of flavors are only suitable for kids. An adult is not allowed to like fruit flavors or desert flavors or any other type of flavor?

the entire supposition is based almost entirely on a questionnaire filled out by minors asking them why specifically they thought e-cigarettes were attractive. The questionnaire and results was posted on this site some time ago. Iirc there were problems with it. So there is a tiny bit of science that’s not in all likelyhood actually very accurate.

Do adults suddenly lose their sense of taste when they age,

. Not suddenly. It does happen though it’s not by any means complete and it happens very slowly. Give a little kid some blue cheese sometime and watch their face. It’s hilarious. When I was a kid I thought blue cheese was inedibly strong. Now I like it.

and they'll be content vaping poor tobacco imitation flavors and menthol for the rest of their lives?

I'm an adult, and my favorite flavors are custard type flavors. Just because I used to smoke, that doesn't mean that I should have to vape and like tobacco flavors. You don't ban all sorts of flavors and deny adults who are ex-smokers the opportunity to continue to be smoke free, just because they were lucky enough to have found and switched to vaping.

no, you don’t. This is one reason people are looking at things like money problems and unethical marketing by BT as the real issues

Sorry if I sound cynical, but so what if a handful of people have reportedly died because they were foolish enough to use blackmarket counterfeit items? Items that have zero to do with nic based vaping I should add.

conflating nicotine e-cigarettes with illegal drug vapes seems to be a very effective tactic for those trying to kill nicotine e-cigarettes though. That it’s total falsehood seems beside the point to them.

How many millions of people die from tobacco related diseases?

I’ve seen several different numbers but they all tend to be above 400,000 Americans a year. More smokers died from smoking in the time it’s taken for me to respond to this comment than have been killed by vaping in the entire history of vaping.

Millions is a lot more than a handful last I checked, and the only thing that banning vaping and vaping related items will accomplish is to ensure that many more people will be added to the list of the dead as many will return to cigs and many current cig smokers will never make the switch to vaping, as the politicians seek to deny people the opportunity to stay off of cigs.

yep. But killing people for money has never bothered BT and they’re the ones paying for all this

If they ever find a cure for cancer, I wouldn't be surprised if they ban that too,

. They’ve already found cures for several cancers. The problem with cancer is that it isn’t one issue it’s hundreds of different ones. Cancer is a symptom not a disease.

because 7 people happened to get some ill side effects from it.

Cancer treatment is famously dangerous. They’re generally willing to put up with a substantial lowering of death chances. Many cancer treatments are about nearly but not quite killing someone.

 

[Eskie]

. Not suddenly. It does happen though it’s not by any means complete and it happens very slowly. Give a little kid some blue cheese sometime and watch their face. It’s hilarious. When I was a kid I thought blue cheese was inedibly strong. Now I like it.

I still hate blue cheese. If blue cheese flavored vape was all that was left on the market I'd definitely return to smoking. I'd rather die than taste blue cheese.

 

[DeloresRose]

a couple of things. One big theory at the moment is money. There’s one argument this isn’t about public health at all but is fallout from the effects of the advent of e-cigarettes and cannabis legalization on the 2011 tobacco settlement.

Another is the future of tobacco. Tobacco smoking kills people but it does it very slowly. The numbers are staggering in adults but near non existent in young people. Cigarette manufacturers need a constant supply of young smokers to keep their profits up. ANTZ changed their tone a few years ago. It used to be about deaths of smokers and the damage smoking does. They’re not giving that one even lip service anymore. Now it’s about addiction.

that is the exact problem. Kids getting ahold of tobacco and liquor cannot be reduced to zero. B&M shops were actually doing a really good job of reducing sales to minors to near zero. Much better than most tobacco outlets. They’re the ones being punished by blanket flavor bans. Gas stations have HAD flavor bans in place for some time specifically because they sold to minors.
already done. Also see above the entire supposition is based almost entirely on a questionnaire filled out by minors asking them why specifically they thought e-cigarettes were attractive. The questionnaire and results was posted on this site some time ago. Iirc there were problems with it. So there is a tiny bit of science that’s not in all likelyhood actually very accurate.
. Not suddenly. It does happen though it’s not by any means complete and it happens very slowly. Give a little kid some blue cheese sometime and watch their face. It’s hilarious. When I was a kid I thought blue cheese was inedibly strong. Now I like it.
no, you don’t. This is one reason people are looking at things like money problems and unethical marketing by BT as the real issues
conflating nicotine e-cigarettes with illegal drug vapes seems to be a very effective tactic for those trying to kill nicotine e-cigarettes though. That it’s total falsehood seems beside the point to them.
I’ve seen several different numbers but they all tend to be above 400,000 Americans a year. More smokers died from smoking in the time it’s taken for me to respond to this comment than have been killed by vaping in the entire history of vaping.
yep. But killing people for money has never bothered BT and they’re the ones paying for all this
. They’ve already found cures for several cancers. The problem with cancer is that it isn’t one issue it’s hundreds of different ones. Cancer is a symptom not a disease.

Cancer treatment is famously dangerous. They’re generally willing to put up with a substantial lowering of death chances. Many cancer treatments are about nearly but not quite killing someone.

I agree with you. And I believe most vapers do. The problem is not vapers though, it’s the uninformed non-vapers who believe what the news tells them because it validates their opinion that vaping is some stupid thing kids do to look cool.

Those are the people we need to debate with. We need to debate and inform in their own language.

The best thing we can do is to be non confrontational but speak up about what is really going on, as far as ‘it’s not the flavors, it’s the illicit substances’ because they really don’t care that BT is the motivational force, and they sure don’t want to hear they’re lousy parents. They don’t care, either, that flavors helped us quit. But I’ve had really good luck getting conversions started and keeping them going using the tainted THC angle.

 

[440BB]

I still hate blue cheese. If blue cheese flavored vape was all that was left on the market I'd definitely return to smoking. I'd rather die than taste blue cheese.

I would definitely like to try a blue cheese vape - any links before it's too late?

 

[Coyote628]

I still hate blue cheese. If blue cheese flavored vape was all that was left on the market I'd definitely return to smoking. I'd rather die than taste blue cheese.

If im not mistaken, there is a blue cheese flavored vape out there. Not that i would ever try it though.

 

[rosesense]

The problem with educating the average, uninformed person is that all they get out of it is the kids are using illegal substances BUT if the devices were not available, problem solved. That is why the ban will continue to gain momentum regardless of the difference in use.

 

[Riplea]

I guess the government is admitting they aren’t able to enforce the laws so they will “save” the children by not allowing flavors to be available. Furthermore we are going to be in control of everything come this May 2020. The End.

 

[sonicbomb]

Money matters, people do not

 

[Jebbn]

If we get rid of the kids, none of this matters!

 

[DeloresRose]

The problem with educating the average, uninformed person is that all they get out of it is the kids are using illegal substances BUT if the devices were not available, problem solved. That is why the ban will continue to gain momentum regardless of the difference in use.

Then why am I not hearing any of them cry “Ban all the devices!” Why? Because they all know vaping isn’t the only way people consume drugs. It’s not even the most popular way.

 

[AttyPops]

It's not about discriminating against adults. Nor is it about "adults don't like flavors". It's probably mostly about money, but there's other legit things they're saying.

It's about not addicting another generation to nicotine. It's about deterrents.

Look at the fire-safe-cig thing.
Look at how they made tobacco cigs LESS safe.
Look at how they go back and edit old photos and moves and actually remove the smoking in them.
Purge the net of advertising.
Remove advertising.
Indoor smoking bans.
Insurance rates lower for not smoking on premises (also a productivity ploy).
Educate and do PSA's during dinner time with people who's faces have been mangled from surgery due to smoking, or losing their vox box.

These are realities and also social engineering. The vast majority of people DON'T smoke, and aren't addicted to nic, and they don't understand.

And in a very real way, it's collective social progress.

They really ARE concerned that young people don't get addicted to nic. You can tell that's a concern for them.

They think "flavors" are partly to blame. And I've said it before in other threads...vaping is pretty much TOO SUCCESSFUL in that it doesn't have enough "down sides" to stop the kiddies from trying it. IDK why they're not using NRT's but I suspect that the new spray will be similar in usage to vaping if vaping were outlawed. The other NRT's don't give the same buzz in the same way (inhaling is easier to control the dose and also a quicker hit).

I don't like the flavor ban, I think it's stupid. It won't work as a deterrent since they can flavor it themselves. And there's money, there's BT takeover, there's a lot here. But they are trying to "save the kiddies". They aren't trying to say "Adults don't like or don't deserve flavors". They're saying that e-cigs work too well, without enough down-side/negatives and that they're too attractive/easy/maybe harmless.

But the question is...if there's little to no proven harm from nic-vaping...no more than, say, from caffeine...why are they not banning caffeine?

I think the retort is "prove the harm". Or...I suppose..."go all the way and ban caffeine, red-bull, and Starbucks or you're a hypocrite". THAT would stop unproven assumptions, since they can all relate to caffeine.

 

[sonicbomb]

History of E-Cigarettes and the FDA

The 'selective' flavour ban is intended to kill the open system market, but preserve the closed system market owned by pig tobacco and their ilk.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with protecting kids or preserving life or health in any way. It's about protecting profits, simple as that. Any other justification that they come up with is merely a smoke screen (pun intended) designed for the gullible and ignorant.

Those charged with protecting your well being are completely indifferent to you. There is only the dollars.

 

[CMD-Ky]

The government lifts its finger to the wind, defines a problem to meet its needs and then sets about punishing all of those who didn't create the problem.

 

[scott58]

^^^I am not a fan of this type of progress.

 

[AttyPops]

^^^I am not a fan of this type of progress.

Agreed. I think there's 50 variables, and "save the children" is only one. But it is one.

*** Politics Alert ***
But then again, some would have me believe that some stupid wall in Texas (that also won't work) will "Save the USA"...

People have their targets, symbols, and abstractions. I agree with others that you have to factor in the hidden agenda and other influence too.

The difference is, the ban actually happened. It's more than just hollow promises and psych-manipulation.

 

[AttyPops]

History of E-Cigarettes and the FDA

The 'selective' flavour ban is intended to kill the open system market, but preserve the closed system market owned by pig tobacco and their ilk.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with protecting kids or preserving life or health in any way. It's about protecting profits, simple as that. Any other justification that they come up with is merely a smoke screen (pun intended) designed for the gullible and ignorant.

Those charged with protecting your well being are completely indifferent to you. There is only the dollars.

Most all of that is true, other than the absolutes. See that list I made. No culture would go through all that if it wasn't concerned about the harm from smoking. Those things have been done, and they cost money to do. They're existential. They're facts.

So there is more than "just money" involved.

 

[CMD-Ky]

^^^I am not a fan of this type of progress.

Agree but it seems the political way.