Link to webcast of Dec. 17 FDA Public Hearing on NRT & Innovative Products

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Bliss Doubt

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Thank you for this information. I have it bookmarked.And especially a huge thank you for all that you do for the vaping community.

Because of my vaping devices ( I refuse to call them...cigarettes, because they're nothing at all like cigarettes) I have been blessedly free from cigarettes for over three years.

Please keep up the excellent work you are doing.

Kay Perkins

I like to call it my vaporette. I realize there is a company called Vapourette, but I don't care. I'm thinking of the Italian boat, the vaporetto, which means "little steam engine". I call my juices elixirs. Sometimes I find the lingo of vaping a bit cumbersome, and sometimes ridiculous. The juices are not electronic, so ejuice or eliquid doesn't make sense.
 

RosaJ

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The FDA did not make a decision one way or the other today from what we saw. So yes, we're ok for now. Kristin from CASAA posted that the hearing today was not about ecigs, it was about convincing the FDA to approve NRT's for long term use instead of limited time parameters. Ecigs was represented because we wanted to show that ecigs should be considered THR (Tobacco Harm Reduction) and if the FDA decides that NRT's are ok for long time use, then it makes ecigs more likely to be approved as THR the same as other smokeless tobacco.

Correct me if I'm wrong...
 

Berylanna

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LOL...me too. I smoked for 32+ years and the last ten were around 2 PAD...so according to his math I should have had lung cancer 5 or 6 years ago and I have been lucky enough to not even get bronchitis since before I started smoking. :)

I thought I heard that lung cancer, while horrible and scary, is NOT the leading cause of death in smokers. It's cardio-vascular and pulmonary. So while from an American Cancer Society viewpoint, cutting back is not enough to help much, I believe if the American Lung Association were honest, they would say there are potentially big COPD benefits to be reaped.
 

j4mmin42

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Can we place wagers? Neither the FDA nor congress will do a dang thing about e-cigarettes. There's too much of an economy to it, vis a vis China trade. Lorillard Tobacco has bought Blu e-cigarettes. It's too far down the road. Bets?

I would put money on them NOT being banned. Beyond that is anyone's guess, at this point.
 

nchamber68

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Me too, he never seemed to reference nor exclude vaping as NRT. Maybe I missed that???

PS: I have 40 years of analogs under my belt and moderate COPD. I haven't got too many choices beyond vaping or quiting, my target is quiting and no vaping.

I'm sorry to hear about the COPD, but on the upside my mom lived a very full life for almost 20 years after she was diagnosed with moderate COPD. It didn't really affect her life and functionality until the last couple of years. Even if you can't give up the vaping entirely, it is definitely a much better alternative than going back to smoking. I'm hoping (fingers crossed) :unsure: that I take after my grandparents, who all smoked for 70+ years and were healthy as could be...but regardless I am happy to have finally stopped smoking now.
 

Stubby

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I definitely do not want to start a debate in this direction, but I just have to mention about all the vapers who were screaming about how AEMSA was going to be bad for us and wanted to blast them upon their inception. It sure was nice to see Link up there representing his interests yet speaking for all of us.

The AEMSA presentation did have it problems. AEMSA's idea of creating a separate category for non-tobacco recreational nicotine products is on the silly side. The insistence of AEMSA of trying to distance themselves from tobacco is not based on any good science. The implication that tobacco is the problem, rather then combustion, shows their own prejudice and/or ignorance on what tobacco harm reduction is. He did mention combustion later in the talk but still implied that extracted nicotine is somehow overwhelmingly less harmful then tobacco.

AEMSA has its own agenda and they appear to be very willing to sacrifice good science if it fits there goals.
 

kristin

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If I extracted nicotine out of tomato leaves. Why would we call it a tobacco product?

I'm not sure how many people will be willing to pay $80 for 30 ml of e-liquid. (OK, I made that cost up, but the cost to extract the tiny amounts of nicotine found in other vegetables would be prohibitive. So, it's just not realistic. I'd rather have it called a tobacco product than pay more for nicotine solution than I did for cigarettes!)
 

snork

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The AEMSA presentation did have it problems. AEMSA's idea of creating a separate category for non-tobacco recreational nicotine products is on the silly side. The insistence of AEMSA of trying to distance themselves from tobacco is not based on any good science. The implication that tobacco is the problem, rather then combustion, shows their own prejudice and/or ignorance on what tobacco harm reduction is. He did mention combustion later in the talk but still implied that extracted nicotine is somehow overwhelmingly less harmful then tobacco.

AEMSA has its own agenda and they appear to be very willing to sacrifice good science if it fits there goals.

There wasn't enough time to present much science, so I was heartened by the fact that when it was said and done both Mr. Williams and Mr. Ritter kind of put the AEMSA component aside and went with a personal perspective.
 

Poeia

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The final presentation has to get them thinking, at least on a superficial level, but the bottom line always seems so important to these people and BP provides that bottom line. Who was that sweet voiced ANTZ that you'd like to shut up? She didn't have much of an agenda much.

Of course their final question to the Dr. signed my death warrant since 20 pack years was the scientifically proven cutoff. Considering my 43 years and 2-3 PAD for at least the last 10, I figure I must be in the 70 pack year group. At 65, I must already be dead. It was nice not meeting you all today, but I feel alright.

We have an agenda, too. There's nothing wrong with that as long as the agenda isn't based on "I made up my mind when I first heard of the product and nothing you say will alter it. I have my fingers in my ears and I can't hear you. La, la, la, la."

This is a new product and there is a learning curve for those of us on both sides of the aisle (and for those straddling it.) But this is a medical issue so we need scientific evidence, if available, anecdotal evidence if it's not and a whole lot of common sense to supplement the process.


40 years smoking ending at 3 1/2 packs a day. I had a full pulmonary work-up after getting pneumonia about 7 months after I started vaping. My doctor said I'm "one of the lucky ones." I have no pulmonary damage but that doesn't mean I didn't lay the seeds for future damage during all those years of smoking. I'm sorry to learn that she was wrong and that I am, apparently, already dead.
 

j4mmin42

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The AEMSA presentation did have it problems. AEMSA's idea of creating a separate category for non-tobacco recreational nicotine products is on the silly side. The insistence of AEMSA of trying to distance themselves from tobacco is not based on any good science. The implication that tobacco is the problem, rather then combustion, shows their own prejudice and/or ignorance on what tobacco harm reduction is. He did mention combustion later in the talk but still implied that extracted nicotine is somehow overwhelmingly less harmful then tobacco.

AEMSA has its own agenda and they appear to be very willing to sacrifice good science if it fits there goals.

Can you describe how you've reached these conclusions? do you have any quotes from the presentation today that support your opinions?

I only ask because I felt quite the opposite after watching their presentation this afternoon. I don't recall hearing him talk about creating a separate regulatory category such as the one you described above- rather, he only explained how AEMSA's standards are a cross between the FDA's alcohol-distillation standards and food preparation standards. Also, while creating a non-tobacco category may be a silly idea, it would be based on facts- and, he did receive a lot of attention from the board after his presentation, which makes it obvious that most of them were actually listening to what he had to say.

Edit: in fact, wouldn't you be even more incorrect by calling e-cigarettes a "tobacco" product? At most, they may contain ONE ingredient present in tobacco, perhaps not even extracted from it. I guess you have more than one dog in this fight, i.e. other NRT's that you care about or something.
 
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Cool_Breeze

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I found this webcast very interesting. I honestly hope that any additional form of governmental regulation or interference with vaping and e-liquids is a long time in coming. The ingredients most used in e-liquids are already regulated (and meet FDA standards) for food grade use.

The last thing I want is for governmental incompetence, red tape, and bureaucracy to mess up the only thing that has ever helped me to quit smoking analogs...not to mention how much it would make the prices go up if the government could regulate and tax e-liquids like they tax tobacco products.

Lou Ritter is a compelling presenter.

I understand it is part of the AEMSA agenda to have the association's standards parlayed into governmental regulatory standards.
 

Jimi D.

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I'm not sure how many people will be willing to pay $80 for 30 ml of e-liquid. (OK, I made that cost up, but the cost to extract the tiny amounts of nicotine found in other vegetables would be prohibitive. So, it's just not realistic. I'd rather have it called a tobacco product than pay more for nicotine solution than I did for cigarettes!)
I think by calling it a tobacco product, will bring the prices up. As much or more than what tobacco products cost today. I hope I'm wrong.
 

kristin

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I thought I heard that lung cancer, while horrible and scary, is NOT the leading cause of death in smokers. It's cardio-vascular and pulmonary. So while from an American Cancer Society viewpoint, cutting back is not enough to help much, I believe if the American Lung Association were honest, they would say there are potentially big COPD benefits to be reaped.
From the stats I've seen, while 90% of lung cancer victims are smokers (if you ignore all other environmental exposures and only blame smoking) only 10% of smokers actually get lung cancer. They haven't even been able to determine what causes lung cancer or heart disease, so it's hard to understand how they can so easily blame smoking and not any other environmental or genetic factors. Most people with heart disease are never smokers. It's easy to ask someone with heart disease or lung cancer "Are you a smoker?" and just chalk that down smoking as the cause. They only look for other factors if you're a non smoker. So there are probably a lot of "smoking-related diseases" happening in people who would have already been at risk even if they hadn't smoked.

The fact is that all Americans already have a higher risk of heart disease than lung cancer, so it stands to reason that smokers would get heart disease more. One in 4 deaths a year are from a form of heart disease and the biggest risk factors are high blood pressure, high LDL cholesterol, and smoking, but also obesity, diabetes, poor diet and excessive alcohol use. How many smokers also fall under those other categories, as well?

Just some facts for people to consider when listening to ANTZ facts.
 
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kristin

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I think by calling it a tobacco product, will bring the prices up. As much or more than what tobacco products cost today. I hope I'm wrong.

Not as pricey as if they are considered drug treatments - which is currently the only other available option. Why would being a tobacco product increase the price? If you are thinking "taxes" those only apply to cigarettes and they are based on established harm. They would have to come up with a pretty good justification for taxing e-cigarettes at the same rate as cigarettes.
 

Jimi D.

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Not as pricey as if they are considered drug treatments - which is currently the only other available option. Why would being a tobacco product increase the price? If you are thinking "taxes" those only apply to cigarettes and they are based on established harm. They would have to come up with a pretty good justification for taxing e-cigarettes at the same rate as cigarettes.
I feel much better now :) Thanks Kristin
 

Cool_Breeze

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I'm not sure how many people will be willing to pay $80 for 30 ml of e-liquid. (OK, I made that cost up, but the cost to extract the tiny amounts of nicotine found in other vegetables would be prohibitive. So, it's just not realistic. I'd rather have it called a tobacco product than pay more for nicotine solution than I did for cigarettes!)

It seems when I looked into the subject there was one plant (Australian or was it South American?) that produced significantly more nicotine than the others in the nightshade family, tobacco aside. I don't recall that the level was anything like tobacco.
 
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