Liquid is insanely expensive.

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Jonathan Tittle

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Anyone can DIY, which means anyone can buy a gallon of PG & VG, buy some Nicotine and buy some flavoring and then get to mixing, but not everyone who does DIY is absorbing the same costs as vendors are, so this is something everyone should consider before complaining about pricing.

As a business owner (unrelated to this market), let me ask those complaining about juice prices a few questions:


1). As a DIY'er, do you buy glass bottles, drippers, labels and boxes in bulk?

2). As a DIY'er, do you buy or make your own bulk flavoring which requires *much* more time to round out?

3). As a DIY'er, do you have to cover the costs of running & maintaining a business, such as paying employees, business licenses, leasing space, paying for utilities specific to that one location (i.e. not your home / home office), paying taxes on the business etc?

4). As a DIY'er, do you have to worry about carrying bulk stock? As in, enough to cover hundreds of orders? If not thousands?

5). As a DIY'er, have you worked hard to perfect a series of flavors, not a single flavor mix, and covered the cost of R&D to bring it to the market?


Chances are, the 4 questions above nix 99% of DIY'ers that are complaining because you all don't have to deal with any of it. You buy some PG, VG and Nicotine, you buy a few flavors and then you use a few bottles that you have or buy a few off vendors for $0.30+ each.

You aren't selling it, so you don't have to carry stock or worry about filling orders. You don't have to worry about storage space or make sure that tomorrow's orders will go out on time based on planned shipments the rest of the week, which sometimes get delayed (just like your vape mail).

As a DIY'er, you also don't have to worry about, to a tee, how much it costs to make each bottle. You make some juice, vape it and move on with life. A business owner has to factor how much it costs him for his employees to make each bottle, what share of the cost of utilities is required etc.

It's not as simple as mix, bottle and sell, despite what others may believe.


That said, this doesn't apply to vendors doing basic flavors, I'm talking about places like 5 Pawns, AIV etc. MBV has been mentioned, so I'll use them as an example, but first I'll say this: There's nothing wrong with buying from MBV. I have, they work for some, they don't for me.

MBV uses Flavor West, the flavors are cheap and they don't spend a ton on packaging. Using plastic and buying bulk flavors cheap gives you the ability to sell cheaper. The more than goes into putting juice in that bottle, the higher it's going to cost, it's really that simple.
 

Myk

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Anyone can DIY, which means anyone can buy a gallon of PG & VG, buy some Nicotine and buy some flavoring and then get to mixing, but not everyone who does DIY is absorbing the same costs as vendors are, so this is something everyone should consider before complaining about pricing.

As a business owner (unrelated to this market), let me ask those complaining about juice prices a few questions:


1). As a DIY'er, do you buy glass bottles, drippers, labels and boxes in bulk?

2). As a DIY'er, do you buy or make your own bulk flavoring which requires *much* more time to round out?

3). As a DIY'er, do you have to cover the costs of running & maintaining a business, such as paying employees, business licenses, leasing space, paying for utilities specific to that one location (i.e. not your home / home office), paying taxes on the business etc?

4). As a DIY'er, do you have to worry about carrying bulk stock? As in, enough to cover hundreds of orders? If not thousands?

5). As a DIY'er, have you worked hard to perfect a series of flavors, not a single flavor mix, and covered the cost of R&D to bring it to the market?


Chances are, the 4 questions above nix 99% of DIY'ers that are complaining because you all don't have to deal with any of it. You buy some PG, VG and Nicotine, you buy a few flavors and then you use a few bottles that you have or buy a few off vendors for $0.30+ each.

You aren't selling it, so you don't have to carry stock or worry about filling orders. You don't have to worry about storage space or make sure that tomorrow's orders will go out on time based on planned shipments the rest of the week, which sometimes get delayed (just like your vape mail).

As a DIY'er, you also don't have to worry about, to a tee, how much it costs to make each bottle. You make some juice, vape it and move on with life. A business owner has to factor how much it costs him for his employees to make each bottle, what share of the cost of utilities is required etc.

It's not as simple as mix, bottle and sell, despite what others may believe.


That said, this doesn't apply to vendors doing basic flavors, I'm talking about places like 5 Pawns, AIV etc. MBV has been mentioned, so I'll use them as an example, but first I'll say this: There's nothing wrong with buying from MBV. I have, they work for some, they don't for me.

MBV uses Flavor West, the flavors are cheap and they don't spend a ton on packaging. Using plastic and buying bulk flavors cheap gives you the ability to sell cheaper. The more than goes into putting juice in that bottle, the higher it's going to cost, it's really that simple.


As a business owner also unrelated to vaping,

1) I have for pursuits not related to vaping. Other than reusing that doesn't hold water because you get much better prices buying in bulk so for those that have bought, they paid a lot more than a business did.

2) No and from what I've seen very few businesses actually have custom flavors made for them and even fewer make their own.

3) Not for vaping, but I know from owning a business that most businesses are able to manage paying for overhead with 100% markup and others with perishable or seasonal goods manage with about a 250% markup. Explain why e-liquid needs a <10,000% markup from manufacturer to consumer when everyone else runs businesses on much less.

4) I have 5 years worth. I really don't see what the difference would be. If anything DIY has more problems with storage in living quarters than a business set up to do so would.

5) Yes, and I'm working on it. One I hit right off the bat. Another took a little tweaking. Another has taken months. From what I've seen a lot of the vendors don't, they have single flavor mixes.

Like I said, I can come up with a lot of reasons for reasonable markups to run a business. I can find no excuse for going from less than 1¢/ml manufacturing to 100¢/ml at the retail store. Especially not when you consider most liquids go direct from mixer to the retail store.
I could say niche market except that pricing helps keep it a niche market.

As far as "worry" as an excuse, if you can't handle the pressures of being in business get out of business. Original investment costs is a valid excuse, the pressures of running a business is not.

I don't have to worry about the price of my DIY because it's $300/5 years to make it vs $600/1 year to buy it.
A better guess than your worrying about the cost to a T is they have it marked up so much because they didn't want to figure it out to a T. They take an obvious profitable stab in the dark so they don't have to figure out how much it cost per ml per minute to turn on a lightbulb. I have some things priced like that, I don't need to know how much material or time goes into it because it's a competitive price, it sounds good to the customer and I know I'm making a ton on it. Other things I have figured out to a T to make sure I wasn't losing money at competitive pricing.
 

quiter

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It's not the cost of the product it's the work that goes into producing it, it's really that simple. Then if you add in a storefront you have all the extra overhead as well and that can be HUGE. Also you have shipping, that takes time to box everything up and deal with customer complaints etc etc etc. It's like any other business and I doubt that anyone is getting rich off of you.

My advice is really simple. If you want to save a buck and still vape the best around use a company like Flavor West. You really can't beat their flavorings for simplicity and quality. I started DIY a long time ago 2007 or so I guess not really sure because I didn't keep track. Before the 510 came along anyway. I tried all kinds of companies and really didn't have a lot of luck until I found Flavor West. Water soluble has been the key to success for me. I bought a gallon of 50/50 48mg base and believe it or not it's going to be time to re-order sometime soon, but I have pretty much all my friends hooked on my juice too. I have NOT bought anything better than mine and trust me I have tried pretty much all of them.

Anyway you look at it, it's still cheaper and better than smoking.
 

Leothwyn

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Like I said, I can come up with a lot of reasons for reasonable markups to run a business. I can find no excuse for going from less than 1¢/ml manufacturing to 100¢/ml at the retail store. Especially not when you consider most liquids go direct from mixer to the retail store.
I could say niche market except that pricing helps keep it a niche market.

Can someone in the US really make juice for 1¢/ml? I have a hard time believing that. Also, I assume that bottles and labels count as part of the product expense. I just don't see it be anywhere near that cheap.
 

Caridwen

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Can someone in the US really make juice for 1¢/ml? I have a hard time believing that. Also, I assume that bottles and labels count as part of the product expense. I just don't see it be anywhere near that cheap.

I don't know about a penny a ml, but it can be pretty cheap.
 

djezewski

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I just started dabbling at some diy. I have started only because I bought flavorings to tweek ones that I have bought that the flavor was well let's say not where if should have been. I bought pg and vg to cut other strong juices that I have bought. So I made a couple of new blends with some of the flavorings I bought. I could not see throwing away the B&M and online juices that I have bought that I thought could be fixed. I have a lot of money invested in them. Since taste is subjective I can't say someone else would have not liked the flavor as they were.
There are a couple of juices I would repeat buying that are pricey but they are so good and unique I do not mind spending the money on them for a treat.
 

fetalbounce

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Oct 17, 2013
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My new local averages about $1/ml.

I can justify a lot of B&M business markups but liquid is one that I have to put into the category of price gouging. I don't remember the cost my my DIY per ml or the size of a bottle I figured up to be 80¢ but there is no justification for the prices some charge when you consider that I didn't get bulk pricing on my ingredients.
Sorry but if I can buy retail, double my cost and still undercut you by hundreds of percents there's something wrong.

My guess is the cost of liquid has nothing to do with needed profit margin to run a business and they figure an average of 3ml a day is $3 vs an average pack a day habit is still saving money. Their competition is cigarettes so that's who they undercut. Until there is real competition outside of a pack of cigarettes that's how it will be.

Yeah, I think the problem is that the market just isn't competitive yet. If the input costs are associated with the label and bottle, then they should just make the bottle bigger. It doesn't cost TWICE as much to offer a bottle of double size, yet a lot of vendors don't seem to offer any significant discount per ml for a larger size.
 

dkeppel

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Oct 20, 2013
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Your in the states and you think juice is expensive ? Really ? Try living on the other side of the world !

I can't buy nicotine e-juice here, there is 1 guy making e-juice here in New Zealand without nicotine for legal reasons and he is charging almost as much as premium American vendors for juice which isn't even close to the same quality, not even from the same planet sort of thing :mad:
 

KjAthena

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Nice, where do you shop?
My top vendor is Alice in Vapeland...LOVE getting Vapemail from them and they were my example listed here
( I dont even mind stalking the portal Tuesday nights to get my order in :) )
I also buy some flavors from Nickoticket and Nude Nicotine...and love Halo's shamrock
 
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fetalbounce

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Nicoticket seems to have at least reasonable prices compared to Vaperlicious or Uncle Junk's. What are some of your favorite flavors from them?

Yeah, I"m not paying a dollar a ml. And I find it humorous that people are always bashing Mt. Baker Vapor. With careful research, every liquid I have ordered from them has been great and here's the best part, I have VERY expensive tastes... It is nice to find something that is inexpensive and tasty. It also proves that an affordable business model can still be profitable.

I have never felt the need to justify my expenditures by putting down cheaper alternatives. I always wonder what the real motivation is for people that do. I guess it makes them feel better? It seems rather juvenile to me. (IE: something a teenager with angst issues might do).

Personally, I have spent $600.00 on a dinner for two many times, and in only a very few circumstances was it worth the price of admission. Best food I ever had ran me about $40.00 at a hole in the wall mom & pop restaurant in New Orleans. We let the tourists spend their cash on Emeril's and Commander's Palace and kept the truly great places to ourselves.

That said, I have no problem spending $$ for something I like. If it's worth it. Hence the Nicoticket banner in my signature -- > And even they don't run nearly close to a dollar a ml.
 

fetalbounce

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Oct 17, 2013
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My top vendor is Alice in Vapeland...LOVE getting Vapemail from them and they were my example listed here
( I dont even mind stalking the portal Tuesday nights to get my order in :) )
I also buy some flavors from Nickoticket and Nude Nicotine...and love Halo's shamrock

They look pretty good to me. I would give their stuff a try.
 
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