Lounge Lizards / Misfits / Free Thinkers / Bohemians & the Forgotten :: Young at Heart Only

[MikeE3]

Calling @DavidOck ... Dave you be the electric man here so. I've never understood my breaker box for all the years we've lived here. I may be required to label the breakers per sales regs in the state.

Bottom line: I'm trying to figure out what 4 ganged breakers labeled 150 amps at the top of my box are for.

Now on with the story.

First, this is a schematic for the box.

I've always assumed I had 100 amp service because in the upper left of the box the bottom double breakers rated at 100 amps is tagged 'main'. The incoming line to the box is 4/0 awg aluminum wire (I believe that should support 200 amps but doesn't mean I'm getting a 200 amp feed)

What confuses me the most is the top left of the box where it has a sticker 'Heater' that's four ganged breakers marked 150. I don't think this label is correct. But I've no idea what 4 ganged circuit breakers marked 150 amps could be for. (read more ahead of the last picture)

On the right side where it says Heat is a 15 amp breaker. When the heater fan is running and I throw that breaker to off, the heater stops, so that definitely goes to the gas heater. Below that 15 am breaker is another sticker labeled 'Heat Pump'. We no longer have a heat pump. Switched over to natural gas but do have HVAC for air conditioning outside the house. I'm assuming the double 50 amp breaker labled heat pump is really for the A/C. Could that be right?

This is the lower half of the box. According to the schematic each section can have a max of 70 amps. I'm pretty sure the unlabeled double 40 breakers are the electric line for an electric stove which we replaced with gas. The cloths washer is one of the red 20 amps, the dryer is at the bottom left @30 amps and below that is another 30 amp set for the pool pump.

But my question/guess about the 150 amp gang at the top of the box is ... is this protection for the two 70 amp sections of the box? If not I have not clue/guess what the 150 amp gang breaker is for.

ps: I have a piece of paper by the box telling me what some of the unlabeled breakers cover. The one I've no idea the lower red 20 amp breaker. Don't know what else in the house may be wired for that. Refrigerator?

 

[Uncle Willie]

But my question/guess about the 150 amp gang at the top of the box is ... is this protection for the two 70 amp sections of the box? If not I have not clue/guess what the 150 amp gang breaker is for.

Hola ..

Those are reserved for Woodstock 2029 ..

 

[MikeE3]

Hola ..

Those are reserved for Woodstock 2029 ..

Hola back at ya ... this couple on the cover of the Woodstock album are still together after 52 years.

 

[DavidOck]

The incoming line to the box is 4/0 awg aluminum wire (I believe that should support 200 amps but doesn't mean I'm getting a 200 amp feed)

What confuses me the most is the top left of the box where it has a sticker 'Heater' that's four ganged breakers marked 150. I don't think this label is correct. But I've no idea what 4 ganged circuit breakers marked 150 amps could be for. (read more ahead of the last picture)

Hmmm... You might have a 200 amp service. I don't see your electric company using bigger cable than they need. 100 amps per phase.

First guess would be for the heating elements of an electric furnace. The surge current, while brief, is pretty massive. IF that's the case, then likely a connection box near the existing furnace, where it would have been connected. (And look behind your gas stove to see if there's a box there for an electric one. If so, your guess on the unlabeled 40s may be correct.

"On the right side where it says Heat is a 15 amp breaker. When the heater fan is running and I throw that breaker to off, the heater stops, so that definitely goes to the gas heater"

Yes, killing the furnace fan SHOULD dump the furnace. Safety measure, if you're not blowing the hot air out, you could well have a house fire. But that doesn't mean that fan breaker is the only breaker associated with the furnace. Even with a gas unit, the ignition module may have it's own feed, although being as both are low current, maybe not. But if the house was built with electric heat in mind, yeah, a couple BIG amp breakers for that, and maybe a separate 120v feed for controls. Depends. With gas, when you kill the power you also kill the flame sensor, and the gas gets automatically turned off.

But my question/guess about the 150 amp gang at the top of the box is ... is this protection for the two 70 amp sections of the box? If not I have not clue/guess what the 150 amp gang breaker is for.

Per the schematic, it does look that way, to provide extra protection, and maybe keep half of the power on by isolating half the panel. Although I've not seen that in domestic installations, well, we didn't build a lot of houses at the hydroelectric plant Although it seems like over kill, to me.

Switched over to natural gas but do have HVAC for air conditioning outside the house. I'm assuming the double 50 amp breaker labled heat pump is really for the A/C. Could that be right?

Quite likely, since you made a switch. Would make sense to reuse the power circuit for the new device.

IF you feel comfortable taking off the faceplate of the panel, check for any breakers with no wires, and mark those "spare." Heck you might even see that those circuits (first pic) marked 1, 4, 5 and 6 don't even have anything on them. (Per the schematic, they don't.)

Worst case, get a tic tracer (non-contact volt meter, https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-T...e-Tester-Pen-50-to-1000V-AC-NCVT1PR/317460355 or similar), turn off everything except the unknown one you pick first, and try to follow the voltage through the walls. Hope it doesn't get to that!

 

[Uncle Willie]

IF you feel comfortable taking off the faceplate of the panel, check for any breakers with no wires, and mark those "spare." Heck you might even see that those circuits (first pic) marked 1, 4, 5 and 6 don't even have anything on them. (Per the schematic, they don't.)

I've done this with mine on a couple occasions .. it's not as harrowing as it sounds ..

 

[Janet H]

I have no idea about all this elec talk. I'd call an electrician and let him figure it out before Mike fries himself.

 

[MikeE3]

David:You might have a 200 amp service. I don't see your electric company using bigger cable than they need. 100 amps per phase.

Mike: But the main breakers are only 100 amps, that's the confusing part if I did have 200 amps coming in wouldn't the main breaker be 200 amps?

David: First guess would be for the heating elements of an electric furnace.

We did have a heat pump when we first moved in. Having it at 150 amps with the main being just 100 amps doesn't make any sense to me. I like the 'guess' further down about it being extra protection for the 2 70 amp sections of the box. But if both of those sections were pull full amps at 140 amp draw wouldn't the main 100 amp break kick out first?

David: (And look behind your gas stove to see if there's a box there for an electric one. If so, your guess on the unlabeled 40s may be correct.

Mike: There is definitely a box there. Original stove was electric. But now the box has been replaced along with the aluminum wire from the breaker box. I know this ... me and a knowledgeable friend replaced it. Geez both the aluminium wire and even the copper replacement line are a whole lot different working with than 12-2 and 14-2 regular house wire.

"On the right side where it says Heat is a 15 amp breaker. When the heater fan is running and I throw that breaker to off, the heater stops, so that definitely goes to the gas heater"

David: Per the schematic, it does look that way, to provide extra protection, and maybe keep half of the power on by isolating half the panel.

Mike: It seems if that is true than if the bottom half went out, the heater is in the top half and would still be useable.

David re: 50 amp for a/c: Quite likely, since you made a switch. Would make sense to reuse the power circuit for the new device.

Mike: If the 150 amp breakers are indeed for the lower 2 sections of the heater. Would that 50 amp be sufficient to run a heat pump on the winter and the a/c in the summer? The sticker on that breaker does say heat pump.

David: IF you feel comfortable taking off the faceplate of the panel, check for any breakers with no wires, and mark those "spare." Heck you might even see that those circuits (first pic) marked 1, 4, 5 and 6 don't even have anything on them. (Per the schematic, they don't.)

Mike: I know every breaker in the box controls something. None of the breakers in the box are 'unconnected' to some circuit in the house. There are 3 unused 'slots' in the top right of the box. Your comment about 1, 4 ,5 and 6 don't even have anything on them, I totally don't understand. Here's a pic of the top of the box.

The 150 gang has a tag "heater"
The 100 gang has a tag "main"
The 15 amp breaker is marked "Heat"
The 50 amp gang has a tag "heat pump"
These tags where there when I moved in.

And yes, just don't tell Janet, I fell comfortable taking the cover off the box. I'd really like to know for sure what that ganged 150 amp breaker(s) are for.

Other than making a guess about having 200 amp service because of the in-feed line being 4/0 awg AL which can handle it ... is there any way to check it. Would an electrician have some gadget to do that? I'm likely going to have one soon because the outside box containing the meter had pull away from the house. The top two screws came out and the box needs to be re-secured to the house wall.

Lastly, thanks for having this online discussion about my box with me. (leave it alone Willie).

 

[DavidOck]

Mike: But the main breakers are only 100 amps, that's the confusing part if I did have 200 amps coming in wouldn't the main breaker be 200 amps?

100 amps per leg, 200 amp total. Short of checking the rating on the transformer fuses at the service drop, no, no real way to check.

We did have a heat pump when we first moved in. Having it at 150 amps with the main being just 100 amps doesn't make any sense to me. I like the 'guess' further down about it being extra protection for the 2 70 amp sections of the box. But if both of those sections were pull full amps at 140 amp draw wouldn't the main 100 amp break kick out first?

Uh, hopefully? The assumption is that nobody will ever run all circuits at max load, and that's a pretty realistic assumption. For example, lighting circuits are 15 amp. When was the last time you had 18 or 19 100 watt bulbs going - on the same circuit! - at one time? Brief surge loads (hopefully!) don't last long enough to cause a trip.

Mike: It seems if that is true than if the bottom half went out, the heater is in the top half and would still be useable.

If it still had control power, yes, it would seem so.

David: (And look behind your gas stove to see if there's a box there for an electric one. If so, your guess on the unlabeled 40s may be correct.

Mike: There is definitely a box there. Original stove was electric. But now the box has been replaced along with the aluminum wire from the breaker box. I know this ... me and a knowledgeable friend replaced it. Geez both the aluminium wire and even the copper replacement line are a whole lot different working with than 12-2 and 14-2 regular house wire.

Uh, yeah, much heavier gauge. But since you replaced that box and cable, don't you know what the breaker is for?

Mike: If the 150 amp breakers are indeed for the lower 2 sections of the heater. Would that 50 amp be sufficient to run a heat pump on the winter and the a/c in the summer? The sticker on that breaker does say heat pump.

Quite likely. Check the nameplate on the heat pump to be sure, it should state the requirements.

David: IF you feel comfortable taking off the faceplate of the panel, check for any breakers with no wires, and mark those "spare." Heck you might even see that those circuits (first pic) marked 1, 4, 5 and 6 don't even have anything on them. (Per the schematic, they don't.)

Mike: I know every breaker in the box controls something. None of the breakers in the box are 'unconnected' to some circuit in the house. There are 3 unused 'slots' in the top right of the box. Your comment about 1, 4 ,5 and 6 don't even have anything on them, I totally don't understand. Here's a pic of the top of the box.

Power panels are made to be, well, versatile, to a point. Most of the time, the builder will put in the bare minimum required by code. Sometimes the spec will be for future expansion, and some circuits will be left "blank" for that.

1 - no lines, although apparently mechanically interlocked with 2

4, 5, 6, no lines, no circuit, spare.

And 2, since it seems to be the feed to the top half, could also be called a "main"... that it's labeled "heater" suggests that the original intent was to have all power associated with that on one half.

Would an electrician have some gadget to do that? I'm likely going to have one soon because the outside box containing the meter had pull away from the house. The top two screws came out and the box needs to be re-secured to the house wall.

Alas, no. Unless the sparktrician has good binoculars and can read the fuse rating at the transformer Yes, DO get qualified help securing that meter box!! While for most the panel cover is easy and safe - you don''t need to get into the panel to do that! - inside the meter box is a whole different scenario, and you have basically zero protection. You're probably too light a load for the transformer fuse to blow....

Lastly, thanks for having this online discussion about my box with me. (leave it alone Willie).

Hey, that's what friends are for

 

[Janet H]

In my part of the country, $395.00 wouldn't make a down payment on a two room shack in a bad neighborhood. I doubt any lender in the country would accept anything like that, let alone for a property like yours.

The $395 was for using the realtor using the brokerage Co. for paperwork and computers etc. The flat fee was for the work the realtor does. The buyers did come up to $20k for earnest money so that's good.

So no earnest money was provided .. ?? Or the 6K has been put up as earnest money .. ?? I don't know how it is out there, but here, a buyer puts in escrow an earnest money deposit .. if they back out of the deal due to a change of heart, the seller gets that money .. otherwise, it is applied to the down payment at closing ..

Personally, I don't know if it's ever really a good idea to put a contract in on another home until the old home has closed and money is in hand ..

But, it's your deal .. these things can get tricky ..

The problem with the market is that there is so little inventory out there to choose from. Now that we're under contract we have to get on the stick and find a house to buy so we don't have to rent back our own house. That's going to be expensive.

We need to find a place so we have more to think about than leaving this place. It doesn't feel real to us yet and a big part of that is not having something to look forward to yet.

 

[MikeE3]

David, I understand more now about the breaker box.

This is the ganged 150 amp breaker in question.

I traced it to the heavy grey wire coming out the left side of the box

I traced that wire to where the heat pump 'used to be'. See that wire in the back all taped up with orange tape ... that's it. So yikes, that 150 amp breaker was turned on. Once I got the panel cover back on, the first thing I did was turn that 150 amp gang of breakers off. I suppose the wire end should terminate in some kind of electrical box, not just taped up and hanging out there.

And while the cover was off I traced some other lines to make sure I knew what 'thing' they ran to and what breaker controlled that line.

The line coming out the left side of the box is the unused line to the electric heating backup coils of the old heat pump (which is gone)

Left to right across the top.

1st one goes to the breaker marked heat pump. Actually goes to the A/C unit outside the house now.

2nd one goes to the pool, and the breaker for that is marked properly

3rd one is the feed to the house/box

4th one, the black wire over on the right, is the new electric range line we ran and it indeed does go to the unlabeled 40 amp breaker that I thought was the range. Now I know for sure.

OMG there's a lot of wires in that box. It's a nightmare in there. I'll give credit to the electrician or serious DIYer to wire up one of this boxes.

The only mystery to me is does the 100 amp breaker labeled main below the ganged 150 amp breaker shut off the whole box or just the two lower sections and/or the Heater and A/C which have their breakers in the top 1/2 of the box. I could turn it off to find out, but I'm done, ain't going to try that.

Top 1/2 of box

Bottom 1/2 of box

One good thing, I now know more about all the breakers and what they control. Turned lights on all around the house. I was in front of the box on the phone with Janet upstairs and I'd throw a breaker and she'd tell me what went out. I've got a much better mapping of all the breakers now. Yeah, now that we're selling the house I finally take time to map out the breaker box.

 

[MikeE3]

Holy cow Batman ... no ones been in the lounge today except David this morning and now Janet and me. I know we have a lot less going on in here, but jeepers only 1 post all day until Janet and I finally came in after dinner.

Was everyone as busy as Janet and me today or is the lounge becoming a ghost town like most of the other popular threads I've followed over the years.

 

[Nermal]

I worry about that too, Mike.

 

[MikeE3]

Good morning people

 

[rosesense]

Good morning, Mike and all.

 

[FranC]

Good morning to the young at heart

 

[DavidOck]

Morning, all.

Maybe everyone was just having a harder than usual time getting over "the hump" day?

I traced that wire to where the heat pump 'used to be'. See that wire in the back all taped up with orange tape ... that's it. So yikes, that 150 amp breaker was turned on. Once I got the panel cover back on, the first thing I did was turn that 150 amp gang of breakers off. I suppose the wire end should terminate in some kind of electrical box, not just taped up and hanging out there.

Yes, it probably should be in a box, although from the pic that might not be realistic. Yep, breaker off, make a note about where the cable ends, to save the next owner the mystery.

The only mystery to me is does the 100 amp breaker labeled main below the ganged 150 amp breaker shut off the whole box or just the two lower sections

Presuming the print is correct, the 100 amp breaker labeled 3 appears to ONLY feed the bottom half, the breaker #2 (150 amp) feeds the top half. (Any device that gets power from both halves will "behave" oddly if one side goes down, btw, hopefully by just not working.)

OMG there's a lot of wires in that box. It's a nightmare in there. I'll give credit to the electrician or serious DIYer to wire up one of this boxes.

Actually not bad when first installing. You know what each cable is for, easy to land the wires on the right breakers. But they really should have marked the panel at that time.... and, from my perspective, done a better job dressing them out... but pretty typical of residential installations, all speed.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Holy cow Batman ... no ones been in the lounge today except David this morning and now Janet and me. I know we have a lot less going on in here, but jeepers only 1 post all day until Janet and I finally came in after dinner.

Was everyone as busy as Janet and me today or is the lounge becoming a ghost town like most of the other popular threads I've followed over the years.

Hola ..

Well, it's up to the Collective to keep things moving along .. there are days I'll post 3-4 times and other days I don't post .. why .. ?? I don't really know .. the older I've gotten, it seems, at times, it becomes a chore .. that's mainly because, sometimes I feel like I'm writing to the wall .. crickets, you know .. ?? Speaking again, just about me, I try to write to illicit a response ..

I don't think there is much new blood coming into ECF these days .. I checked the stats an hour ago and there were 21 Members on site and 360 visitor non-members .. I checked it a half hour after that and there were 17 Members on site .. yes, it's Thursday, not a barn burner day, but still .. outsiders are still visiting, yet I don't think many are hanging around to join because they don't see much value in it these days ..

I think we all know that ECF will never return to its hey day .. when things were poppin' .. then, to compound the problem, The Lounge area has always been kind of a hidden sub-section, which may not even be indexed by Mr/Ms Google ..

That's life for now, yet I remain optimistic ..

 

[FranC]

Hola ..

Well, it's up to the Collective to keep things moving along .. there are days I'll post 3-4 times and other days I don't post .. why .. ?? I don't really know .. the older I've gotten, it seems, at times, it becomes a chore .. that's mainly because, sometimes I feel like I'm writing to the wall .. crickets, you know .. ?? Speaking again, just about me, I try to write to illicit a response ..

I don't think there is much new blood coming into ECF these days .. I checked the stats an hour ago and there were 21 Members on site and 360 visitor non-members .. I checked it a half hour after that and there were 17 Members on site .. yes, it's Thursday, not a barn burner day, but still .. outsiders are still visiting, yet I don't think many are hanging around to join because they don't see much value in it these days ..

I think we all know that ECF will never return to its hey day .. when things were poppin' .. then, to compound the problem, The Lounge area has always been kind of a hidden sub-section, which may not even be indexed by Mr/Ms Google ..

That's life for now, yet I remain optimistic ..

Good afternoon, Willie. Do you ever plant a little garden? I just cut up a cucumber and tomato that came out of dd's garden. Added French Dressing and call it a salad. Close enough for me. I live with a daughter now but part of today and tomorrow I will enjoy an empty house

 

[Uncle Willie]

There are just certain things that folks end up liking .. I don't know why .. maybe it's just a throwback to another time in their lives .. maybe they just, er, like it for one reason or another ..

Take fried bologna / boloney .. while I don't think about it daily, and I certainly don't eat it on a regular basis, sometimes, it pops into my head and I want some .. I was never a huge fried Spam fan, but my Mother used to fry up boloney when I was a kid and it sort of stayed with me .. fried boloney on some fresh Wonder bread along with mayo and a cheese slice ..

You have to cut the boloney, so it lays flat in the skillet .. .. and, the doneness is really personal preference ..

 

[Uncle Willie]

Good afternoon, Willie. Do you ever plant a little garden? I just cut up a cucumber and tomato that came out of dd's garden. Added French Dressing and call it a salad. Close enough for me. I live with a daughter now but part of today and tomorrow I will enjoy an empty house

Nope, although I did grow two tomato plants this year .. I got a couple edible tomato's, that's about it ..