Michigan Gov Whitmer releases vaping ban rules...

[Rossum]

But why worry? Put some nic in the freezer and a few extra mods and atomizers in the vape drawer and relax.

Yes, it's straightforward enough for us, the small minority of vapers who've seen seen the writing on the wall, to insulate ourselves from this nonsense on a personal level. I've certainly done that, and I've encouraged everyone who will listen to do the same.

But this doesn't help the other 90+% who are used to going to a local vape shop once a week for their supply of juice and drop-in coils, or who buy a a pack of pre-filled pods at the local Stop & Rob every few days. They're screwed, as are the thousands of vape shops and their employees. Even if they're not in Michigan, New York, or another state or locality that's jumping the gun, the FDA's PMTA deadline is less than 8 months away, and it brings the whole situation to a head on the national level.

 

[sofarsogood]

Yes, it's straightforward enough for us, the small minority of vapers who've seen seen the writing on the wall, to insulate ourselves from this nonsense on a personal level. I've certainly done that, and I've encouraged everyone who will listen to do the same.

But this doesn't help the other 90+% who are used to going to a local vape shop once a week for their supply of juice and drop-in coils, or who buy a a pack of pre-filled pods at the local Stop & Rob every few days. They're screwed, as are the thousands of vape shops and their employees. Even if they're not in Michigan, New York, or another state or locality that's jumping the gun, the FDA's PMTA deadline is less than 8 months away, and it brings the whole situation to a head on the national level.

I've annoyed more than a few coworkers and acquaintences urging them to at least put some nic in the freezer. My success--zero. I bet at this moment most of the vapers in my state of Michigan are not aware of the governors action and for the rest it hasn't sunk in. I expect things too change around here when typical vapers find nothing on the shelves in their local vape shop, assuming it's still open.

There are something like 300-400,000 vapers in Michigan according to reports I've read recently. How ever many there are most of them probably depend on vape shops. If they turn out to be half as passionate as gun owners things are going to get lively. Unless that happens I don't see any fixing this.

 

[Rossum]

I've annoyed more than a few coworkers and acquaintences urging them to at least put some nic in the freezer. My success--zero.

I'm not surprised. Heck, there are some people who've been here on ECF for years who still refuse to do this.

I expect things too change around here when typical vapers find nothing on the shelves in their local vape shop, assuming it's still open.

In that case, it may be advantageous for them to be in a state that has jumped the gun; it may act as a wake-up call before the FDA has its way with the industry starting next May.

There are something like 300-400,000 vapers in Michigan according to reports I've read recently. How ever many there are most of them probably depend on vape shops. If they turn out to be half as passionate as gun owners things are going to get lively.

You would think they'd be more passionate. I'm a gun-owner and quite passionate about it on general principle, but not having my guns wouldn't affect my life much in the immediate future, whereas if my vape-stuff all disappeared and I couldn't get more, I'd be one grumpy, miserable SOB, and I still don't have much confidence that I wouldn't try to fix that with a pack of Camels fairly quickly.

 

[CMD-Ky]

You would think they'd be more passionate. I'm a gun-owner and quite passionate about it on general principle, but not having my guns wouldn't affect my life much in the immediate future, whereas if my vape-stuff all disappeared and I couldn't get more, I'd be one grumpy, miserable SOB, and I still don't have much confidence that I wouldn't try to fix that with a pack of Camels fairly quickly.

I'd be back to "Kentucky's Best" a local brand composed of the floor sweepings from the Camel plant.

 

[sofarsogood]

I'm not surprised. Heck, there are some people who've been here on ECF for years who still refuse to do this.

In that case, it may be advantageous for them to be in a state that has jumped the gun; it may act as a wake-up call before the FDA has its way with the industry starting next May.

You would think they'd be more passionate. I'm a gun-owner and quite passionate about it on general principle, but not having my guns wouldn't affect my life much in the immediate future, whereas if my vape-stuff all disappeared and I couldn't get more, I'd be one grumpy, miserable SOB, and I still don't have much confidence that I wouldn't try to fix that with a pack of Camels fairly quickly.

One of my relapses back to cigarettes, before vaping, happened after 10 YEARS! What makes ecigs a game changer is they protect against relapse. Many vapers could tell you that vaping is an entirely superior experience. I could smoke a cigarette right now (or at least try to) and the risk of relapse would be zero.

The Trump campaign urgently needs to determine how many vapers are in the swing states. Trump may be forced to backtrack on vaping or accept being a one term president. I'm sure vapers are over represented among the deplorables who voted for Trump. There are far more than enough vapers in Michigan today to make Whitmar a one term governor. I wrote earlier, politicians are used to the idea they can abuse and disrespect smokers at will so the same will be true of vapers. That could turn out to be very wrong. If the courts won't back us up we can get it done on voting day though that won't come soon enough for the vape shops. I'll also say, me and my nearest and dearest come first, then fellow vapers and smokers and last of all vape shops.

 

[Infernal2]

Yeah I know. Small area.

Still, I don't even see cig advertising anymore, yet cigs are commonly available at gas stations.
Meh.

We ex-smokers know where to get juice (for now). As to the kiddies, they're better off not starting. So...
I'm not freaking out about the advertising thing. I do admit, though, that historically BT was probably the worlds best at it. Just objectively. Not morally or factually, just objectively.

Sorry, to expand on why I see 6 as particularly troubling is in how they will interpret what counts as advertising? Is POCM (point of sale materials) considered advertising? For example, the small lucite display cases that generally have some sort of shelf-strip demonstrating price and name can, in the state of Alabama, be considered an advertisement for malt beverages over a certain alcohol percentage (such as Buzz Ball products and those individual shot drinks) but not others and are thus restricted by the 25 foot rule for alcohol (we have similar laws as Michigan for this distance issue).

And then let's add the distance from drinks/food sales. Does that mean that every end-cap display counts as a point of sale for distance purposes? I would be willing to bet that this consideration may be put into effect at some point to dependent on who is in charge of interpretation. And on top of that, where are most small, pricey items kept in almost any store? Behind the counter right?

I just think 6 is put into place as to make it incredibly difficult for the people in Michigan to effective set up any vape sales in an enclosed area. And you can forget kiosks if they do those up there (they do down here). Its a trap anyway you look at it.

 

[AttyPops]

Yeah, that all makes sense, but it's probably not all that diff than cigs now. And to your point, maybe alcohol too, IDK.

Since I'm more in the "I use it to quit smoking" camp than I am in the "hey, let's let big-juice increase sales to make more money" camp, I guess I don't care if they get advertised other than knowing what it is so I as a consumer can evaluate.

As it is, I'll be stuck with "tobacco #1" vs "tobacco #2"... :/

 

[Infernal2]

I'll be honest, I'm super-super-super thankful I've been nic-free for over a year now. I still enjoy vaping but its for the flavors and I don't know how I'd feel being on this side of it while still vaping nic. I still fight for other vapers though, not everyone is at the same point as I am.

 

[Opinionated]

I'll be honest, I'm super-super-super thankful I've been nic-free for over a year now. I still enjoy vaping but its for the flavors and I don't know how I'd feel being on this side of it while still vaping nic. I still fight for other vapers though, not everyone is at the same point as I am.

I wasn't using nicotine for a year and a half, and down to just vaping a puff or two every now and then, I was under a ml a week on vaping..

but then I had some health issues, and ran into serious problems trying to get surgery..(no worries now, my surgery is scheduled for next month)

but at one point I was just so frustrated with it all that I went back to vaping with nicotine..

I'm not using much nic, just 3mg.. but I'm back to full time vaping as it were, around 2 or 3 ml's a day..

This was just in the last couple of weeks, so you really never know what will set you back, even after some time away from it..

 

[440BB]

I wasn't using nicotine for a year and a half, and down to just vaping a puff or two every now and then, I was under a ml a week on vaping..

but then I had some health issues, and ran into serious problems trying to get surgery..(no worries now, my surgery is scheduled for next month)

but at one point I was just so frustrated with it all that I went back to vaping with nicotine..

I'm not using much nic, just 3mg.. but I'm back to full time vaping as it were, around 2 or 3 ml's a day..

This was just in the last couple of weeks, so you really never know what will set you back, even after some time away from it..

It's nice to have a nic vape to fall back on instead of reaching for a smoke. Glad things are lining up for you!

 

[mcclintock]

Me too, seems like it should be illegal to even implement a ban with a two week notice. This type of power needs to be taken away from Governors.

If it were an actual emergency, 2 weeks would be intolerably slow. It is not.

Re: this aimed at suppliers, if you possess more than 4 bottles you are not an individual.

Re: unflavored, I like it with strong nicotine, those looking for a nic rush, e.g. kids, should have little issue with it. However I usually vape little nic anymore and can't enjoy more than a drag or two at the strengths that are enjoyable without flavor.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Re: this aimed at suppliers, if you possess more than 4 bottles you are not an individual.

...

Where did this "4 Bottle" thing comes from?

I've seen a Few People mention it like it is some Statutory Definition. Can you Post an Official Source where it is Mentioned?

 

[Myrany]

Where did this "4 Bottle" thing comes from?

I've seen a Few People mention it like it is some Statutory Definition. Can you Post an Official Source where it is Mentioned?

I've been wondering that myself

 

[AttyPops]

It was in the original draft proposal, and I think there's a link in this thread.

But it didn't make it to the final results. So I suppose they had similar observations that others in this thread did about "how do you tell? Juul packs are sold in 4's....". It didn't make the editorial cut. For now.

 

[zoiDman]

It was in the original draft proposal, and I think there's a link in this thread.

But it didn't make it to the final results. So I suppose they had similar observations that others in this thread did about "how do you tell? Juul packs are sold in 4's....". It didn't make the editorial cut. For now.

I kinda Figured it was something like that.

ETA: I believe this is the Official "Emergency Rules" that our friend Gretchen issued.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...-_signed_by_Gov-Director_9.18.19_666139_7.pdf

 

[AttyPops]

I kinda Figured it was something like that.

ETA: I believe this is the Official "Emergency Rules" that our friend Gretchen issued.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...-_signed_by_Gov-Director_9.18.19_666139_7.pdf

Yeah, that's the result, not the earlier draft.

Rule 5. Flavored-nic internet ban, as I read it. Others read it differently. Still confused.

 

[gpjoe]

...Still confused.

Yes they are.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Rule 5. Flavored-nic internet ban, as I read it. ...

That is how I Read it Also.

Not sure how it can be Read Much else?

 

[JustWondering1]

A ray of hope for Michigan vapers who love nontobacco juices. This is posted on the EC Blend web site.

MICHIGAN CUSTOMERS: You can ship to another state or you can still purchase Zero Nicotine Flavored products, Tobacco (Traditional Category) and Flavorless Flavors as well as hardware and other products on ECBlend.com. We will continue to fill your orders that do not violate the rules as we understand them. Some of our tobacco flavors like Kings Crown are very light in tobacco flavor. https://www.michigan.gov/documents/...-_signed_by_Gov-Director_9.18.19_666139_7.pdf

Our ecommerce system cannot identify these products at this time. If you order a banned product, we will ship your order without that product and apply the difference in store credit or refund.

YOU CAN STILL GET YOUR FAVORITE FLAVORED E-LIQUID FROM ECBLEND: HERE IS HOW: It is not illegal for you to vape, buy or own flavored vape products including Create Your Own. Order FLAVORLESS in DOUBLE the nicotine strength you desire, then order your flavored product in Zero nicotine in DOUBLE EXTRA FLAVOR (important), then combine the two together. Example: If you want Dragon's Crown in 6mg nicotine: Combine 1 bottle of Zero Nicotine Dragon's Crown in DOUBLE EXTRA FLAVOR with an equal sized bottle of Flavorless with 12mg nicotine regular or NicSalt (use NicSalt wizard). Combined together for 6mg nicotine. (In a brief filed Monday, the Michigan Attorney General’s Office argued the ban likely won’t force vaping-related businesses to close because they’re still allowed to sell e-liquids that are tobacco-flavored and ones that don’t contain nicotine.)

We will be offering Pure Concentrated Flavoring from one of our flavor vendors in the next few days. These flavorings are water-soluble and can be used for any use you would use a flavor concentrate for. More

 

[mcduffy]

Michigan's vaping ban goes into effect. Here's what you need to know

Posted By Steve Neavling on Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 10:52 AM

Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s controversial ban on flavored nicotine e-cigarettes and liquids went into effect Wednesday after a judge declined a last-minute request to halt the ban.

Under Whitmer’s emergency orders, the sale of flavored nicotine vaping products is illegal and punishable by up to six months in jail.

But there’s still hope for vapers. Court of Claims Judge Cynthia Stephens set a hearing for Tuesday afternoon in Petoskey to consider a preliminary injunction that would temporarily stop the ban as part of a lawsuit filed by Marc Slis, owner of 906 Vapor, a vape shop in Houghton. Slis and his attorneys argue Whitmer overstepped her authority by imposing the ban without legislative approval.

Attorney General Dana Nessel’s office is defending the ban, saying the drastic rise in youth vaping constitutes a public health emergency, which allows the governor to take unilateral action.

U.S. District Judge Robert Jonker also is considering a request to temporarily stop the ban in a case filed by Mister E-Liquid, a Michigan-based maker of popular flavored vape juices. The company, which has 80 employees, says the ban may lead to bankruptcy. In that case, U.S. District Court Judge Robert Jonker said he would consider the company’s request for a preliminary injunction after giving the state 14 days to respond.

In the meantime, there is a loophole in the law that allows vapers to continue buying flavored nicotine. Whitmer’s ban only applies to flavored nicotine. That means people may still buy vape liquids and pods that are free of nicotine. And for about $5, they can buy a flavorless nicotine packet and dump it into a bottle of vape liquid.

The ban no longer prohibits possession of flavored nicotine; it only prohibits the sale of it.

Law enforcement authorities in Macomb County and Westland said they will begin inspecting vape shops Wednesday to ensure they are in compliance.

“The purpose for these visits will be to educate the shop owners on the emergency rules issued by the Department of Health and Human Services and ensure that the shops do not have any prohibited products offered for sale,” Westland Police Chief Jeff Jedrusik said in a news release. “We will have a team of community officers on the road for the next few days reminding them of the ban.”

Whitmer became the first governor to introduce a ban since a mysterious and deadly vaping-related lung illness was discovered in July. But the illness appears to be primarily linked to black-market cannabis vaping, not flavored nicotine, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Friday.

Despite the link to black market cannabis vaping, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and New York have also banned nicotine vaping products. They, too, are facing legal challenges.

Vaping advocates say the bans are misdirected and will increase the number of people who smoke cigarettes, which are generally considered far more hazardous and kill one of every two long-term smokers.