Most recent battery explosion

[BillW50]

Simple, it's because with the RX200 the 3 batteries are hooked up in a series config so the mAh is not tripled, unlike with a parallel config. I.e. only the input voltage that the board receives from the combined batteries is tripled, so, because the board needs to buck the voltage down a lot, the board is wasting more of the efficiency that it has, which isn't a whole lot to begin with, as the board simply isn't designed to be super efficient.

Are you saying that boost regulators are more efficient than buck regulators?

 

[cigatron]

All regulated mods are inefficient compared to good mechs. The proof is in how many mils of juice I can vape per charge. I can vape 8.5 mils at 110w (avg) with a single vtc5a in my mechs but the same atty with 3 of the same vtc5a on my dna 200 will only vape 18 mils tops. The build I'm using for this comparison makes the dna 200 buck voltage a little at first and boost voltage a little at the end but spends most of its time using the nominal 3.9v of each cell. So in the end that calculates to approx 70% efficiency for the dna 200 with that build at 110w. I get similar efficiency numbers from my dna 75's as well.
I'm not saying my test is the most scientific but it seems like using a build and wattage that minimizes buck or boost throughout battery use would allow a regulated mod to perform at its maximum efficiency. Not sure, but seems logical to me.

Edit: Forgot to mention, in both cases the batts measure 3.4-3.5v when removed from the mods.

 

[BillW50]

Well mech mods doesn't have a processor and supports chips to take some power away as well as the screen. But you still need external devices with mechs that are built into regulated mods. Like you will need to charge externally, since mech mods doesn't support charging. Also you need an ohm meter to measure your resistance. So you do need electronics with mechs, they are just not built into the mech. Also mechs are limited by the resistances and wire types you can use with them.

 

[DaveP]

I like this article for a comprehensive explanation of regulated mods. Efficiency is king with single or multiple batteries. He can't spell resistance, but the explanations seem sound (after a quick scan). I'm still reading through it.

Regulated Mods, Batteries, Resistence Explained

 

[BillW50]

Yeah sure, but they don't address which is more efficient. Boost or buck?

Maybe I should ask on the EE forum.

 

[DaveP]

Yeah sure, but they don't address which is more efficient. Boost or buck?

Maybe I should ask on the EE forum.

This is a comparison I like. For ecig mods the 3.3v dropout of a buck converter seems sufficient.

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1273123

A buck converter (Figure 1) provides the most efficient solution with the smallest external components, but drops out near 3.3V. At this point, the converter transitions to 100% duty cycle operation and tracks the battery voltage. A buck- boost solution has the advantage of regulating the output voltage over the full Lithium-ion voltage range, but suffers from lower efficiency and a larger total footprint. Additionally, most Lithium-ion batteries have a plateau from 3.5V to 3.6V and very little charge below the plateau, limiting the usefulness of the buck-boost converter and its wide input voltage range.

 

[BillW50]

Now we're talking.

 

[Baditude]

Simple, it's because with the RX200 the 3 batteries are hooked up in a series config so the mAh is not tripled, unlike with a parallel config. I.e. only the input voltage that the board receives from the combined batteries is tripled, so, because the board needs to buck the voltage down a lot, the board is wasting more of the efficiency that it has, which isn't a whole lot to begin with, as the board simply isn't designed to be super efficient. Instead, it is a budget-oriented device that's designed to deliver fairly high watts, while still being able to offer a truly amazing feature set that, specifically in its price bracket, factually is miles upon miles ahead of so-called 'competition' (as that's irrefutably being revealed by ArcticFox despite all the hate that gets spread by some certain 'reviewers' who are easier to bribe than many think, and who make it their first hobby to remain in full denial about that by gushing over their own technical competences when the reality is that these competences are nothing more than a see-through smokescreen, I digress).

I asked Mooch when multiple battery regulated mods are wired "in series" if the mAh is the same as a single battery or if the mAh increases when using multiple batteries.

"That’s only for unregulated/mech devices.

For regulated devices the capacity rating for cells in series remains the same as a single cell but the energy they can deliver, in Wh, increases as you add cells. Assuming same regulator efficiency, a two battery mod can run for about twice as long as a single battery mod.

So, effectively, the capacity is doubled. Some call this the “equivalent mAh” or “equivalent capacity”.

Otherwise, if capacity didn’t add up, we could use a 100 cell mod with no increase in run time. But we know that there is 100 cell’s worth of battery goop being used and that must provide some benefit.

Running cells in series in a regulated mod means the voltage is higher so the regulator needs to draw less current to provide the requested wattage. This means two batteries run for longer than one. The extra energy two cells provide is utilized as a higher voltage.

I don’t know why your multi-battery mods don’t run for a lot longer. Cutoff voltages can have a huge effect though along with efficiency." -- Mooch​

 

[BillW50]

I asked Mooch when 3-battery regulated mods are wired "in series" if the mAh is the same as a single battery or if the mAh triples when using 3 batteries.

When comparing to a single cell... yes mAh stays the same, but the voltage triples when in series. 3 cells in parallel, the mAh triples and the voltage stays the same. Interesting enough, watt hours triples in either configuration.

 

[DaveP]

When comparing to a single cell... yes mAh stays the same, but the voltage triples when in series. 3 cells in parallel, the mAh triples and the voltage stays the same. Interesting enough, watt hours triples in either configuration.

Probably because P=EI. E triples in series but the current stays the same.

 

[dripster]

Are you saying that boost regulators are more efficient than buck regulators?

No, buck regulators are generally more efficient than boost regulators. But if you're vaping at only 30 watts with 3 × Samsung 30Q in series on a regulated mod, then the difference between the input voltage and the output voltage will typically be so big that the buck circuit runs a tad less efficiently as a result, i.e., as far as the efficiency of the buck/boost circuit is concerned, boosting the volts by only some small-ish amount may in fact tend to give about the same, maybe even slightly more efficiency when compared to bucking it by a much larger amount. Further, the efficiency of the batteries themselves only starts to become a noticeable factor if you push the batteries reasonably hard. The Samsung 30Q discharged at 30 watts with just a single battery (i.e. at less than 10A in a DNA mod assuming 3.2V voltage cut-off and 97% efficiency) is not going to cause the 30Q to run much more inefficiently when compared to discharging the 30Q at only 10 watts per battery (i.e. 3.7A in the RX200 with 3.0V voltage cut-off and not much more than 90% efficiency). So 30 watts simply is waa-aaaa-aaaaaaay too low for the 30Q to run inefficiently in any way that can be very noticeable, and, again, the 3 batteries are not being run in parallel, and so the capacity is not tripled. So you can't blame the RX200 for not being that which it was never intended to be in the first place. It isn't a tootle puffing device. (But you can still tootle puff on it if that's what you like. )

 

[cigatron]

No, buck regulators are generally more efficient than boost regulators. But if you're vaping at only 30 watts with 3 × Samsung 30Q in series on a regulated mod, then the difference between the input voltage and the output voltage will typically be so big that the buck circuit runs a tad less efficiently as a result, i.e., as far as the efficiency of the buck/boost circuit is concerned, boosting the volts by only some small-ish amount may in fact tend to give about the same, maybe even slightly more efficiency when compared to bucking it by a much larger amount. Further, the efficiency of the batteries themselves only starts to become a noticeable factor if you push the batteries reasonably hard. The Samsung 30Q discharged at 30 watts with just a single battery (i.e. at less than 10A in a DNA mod assuming 3.2V voltage cut-off and 97% efficiency) is not going to cause the 30Q to run much more inefficiently when compared to discharging the 30Q at only 10 watts per battery (i.e. 3.7A in the RX200 with 3.0V voltage cut-off and not much more than 90% efficiency). So 30 watts simply is waa-aaaa-aaaaaaay too low for the 30Q to run inefficiently in any way that can be very noticeable, and, again, the 3 batteries are not being run in parallel, and so the capacity is not tripled. So you can't blame the RX200 for not being that which it was never intended to be in the first place. It isn't a tootle puffing device. (But you can still tootle puff on it if that's what you like. )

Yep, and an interesting thing to remember/know is that regulated mods do not have current regulators, they control the wattage by voltage regulation only eg (buck or boost). So if you run a 2ohm coil on a mod with 3 batts in series you're making the mod buck a crap-tonne of voltage the entire time. That's why I used a build that needed 3.9v to produce 110w in my dna efficiency test posted earlier. 97% efficiency? More like 70%-75% imo.

 

[dripster]

I asked Mooch when multiple battery regulated mods are wired "in series" if the mAh is the same as a single battery or if the mAh increases when using multiple batteries.

"That’s only for unregulated/mech devices.

For regulated devices the capacity rating for cells in series remains the same as a single cell but the energy they can deliver, in Wh, increases as you add cells. Assuming same regulator efficiency, a two battery mod can run for about twice as long as a single battery mod.

So, effectively, the capacity is doubled. Some call this the “equivalent mAh” or “equivalent capacity”.

Otherwise, if capacity didn’t add up, we could use a 100 cell mod with no increase in run time. But we know that there is 100 cell’s worth of battery goop being used and that must provide some benefit.

Running cells in series in a regulated mod means the voltage is higher so the regulator needs to draw less current to provide the requested wattage. This means two batteries run for longer than one. The extra energy two cells provide is utilized as a higher voltage.

I don’t know why your multi-battery mods don’t run for a lot longer. Cutoff voltages can have a huge effect though along with efficiency." -- Mooch​

Yeah, but that's assuming same regulator efficiency. Like I already tried to explain, the regulator efficiency plummets if the bucking that is being performed has to work with an input voltage that's not just higher, but a LOT higher than the output voltage to which it needs to convert that same input voltage, as @cigatron also explained:

Yep, and an interesting thing to remember/know is that regulated mods do not have current regulators, they control the wattage by voltage regulation only eg (buck or boost). So if you run a 2ohm coil on a mod with 3 batts in series you're making the mod buck a crap-tonne of voltage the entire time. That's why I used a build that needed 3.9v to produce 110w in my dna efficiency test posted earlier. 97% efficiency? More like 70%-75% imo.

Yeah, my bad... I wrongfully assumed the DNA 75 board's efficiency is the same as that of the DNA 200 board, which is 97%. According to the official datasheet from Evolv, the DNA 75 board has an efficiency of only 85%.
https://downloads.evolvapor.com/dna75.pdf
But yeah, that's just the board alone, not the whole mod so you probably are right about it translating to only 70%-75% in practice. And yes, building to lower ohms (e.g. by moving from fused claptons to triple core fused claptons or regular type alien coils, and/or by moving from Kanthal to Nichrome 80, preferrably something more along the lines of 3 × 28g Nichrome 80 core wires and 36g or 38g Nichrome 80 wrap wire) in order to attain a higher output voltage is what I would do. During my first vaping week, despite I was chain vaping a lot I could get close to 7 hours from my Wismec Reuleaux RX2/3 equipped with 3 × Sony VTC5A at 80 watts and .28 ohms on the Wotofo 25mm Troll RDA 2.

 

[dripster]

Well mech mods doesn't have a processor and supports chips to take some power away as well as the screen. But you still need external devices with mechs that are built into regulated mods. Like you will need to charge externally, since mech mods doesn't support charging. Also you need an ohm meter to measure your resistance. So you do need electronics with mechs, they are just not built into the mech. Also mechs are limited by the resistances and wire types you can use with them.

The fact you need external electronics devices to get it functioning is separate from how it vapes or tastes after it functions. Also regulated mods are limited by the fact they can't give the best satisfying vape to a vast group of vapers, myself included, whose preference for mechs doesn't seem to be in any way diminishable by the resistances and wire types they can use with them.

 

[tiggerrts]

Am I the only one who found that headline rather tasteless, "E cig industry "under fire" after the latest explosion."

Okay, it's probably just the media's usual subliminal punishment and that was like one impressive video.

I am thrilled that he bought a TV prior to seeking treatment now we'll see what he does when the ambulance chasers show up, although even they might have difficulty with the "stopped to buy a TV on the way to treatment," although maybe they'll take the dazed and confused approach. So SHOCKED and horrified, the plaintiff did not even understand his need for treatment until he watched the footage on his new, 40 inch TV."

Anna

almost every time that a battery of a e-cig hate that term vape... explodes someone has tampered with the devise thus making it explode. Time and time again, no different, he may not have but still someone tampered with the device making its safety features no longer work. truth.

 

[BillW50]

The fact you need external electronics devices to get it functioning is separate from how it vapes or tastes after it functions. Also regulated mods are limited by the fact they can't give the best satisfying vape to a vast group of vapers, myself included, whose preference for mechs doesn't seem to be in any way diminishable by the resistances and wire types they can use with them.

Help me to understand this. Mechs only vape by battery voltage. There are no tricks or anything. So say your battery reads 4.1v. Now you fire and due to battery sag, your coil is getting say 3.9v. Nothing special and no difference between a VV (set at 3.9v) mod and a mech yet.

Now after a dozen or so hits, resting battery voltage is now 4.0v. Now when you fire, the coil is getting say 3.8v. So just adjust your VV for 3.8v now. Why would either one give you a different vape? And as the battery voltage drops under load, just dial back your VV. So I don't get why some say mechs gives you a better vape? Perhaps it is only a psychological thing or something?

 

[tiggerrts]

Help me to understand this. Mechs only vape by battery voltage. There are no tricks or anything. So say your battery reads 4.1v. Now you fire and due to battery sag, your coil is getting say 3.9v. Nothing special and no difference between a VV (set at 3.9v) mod and a mech yet.

Now after a dozen or so hits, resting battery voltage is now 4.0v. Now when you fire, the coil is getting say 3.8v. So just adjust your VV for 3.8v now. Why would either one give you a different vape? And as the battery voltage drops under load, just dial back your VV. So I don't get why some say mechs gives you a better vape? Perhaps it is only a psychological thing or something?

there is a thread that helps with this more than I can probably explain. So mechanical mods have no safety features as in push and fire. The well not better as I have won a $200 dollar mod mechanical hand made and no problems. It is tampering with, that makes it bad, or, say juice gets down to the electrical parts and then makes it malfunction. I know some people who might explain it better... Let me invite. @liblue1 @Uncle @SLM see this discussion. a fire of batteries no good and trying to but hard to explain.

@BillW50 love the avatar comanche here and another is creek I think and another is closer to celtic...

 

[cigatron]

Help me to understand this. Mechs only vape by battery voltage. There are no tricks or anything. So say your battery reads 4.1v. Now you fire and due to battery sag, your coil is getting say 3.9v. Nothing special and no difference between a VV (set at 3.9v) mod and a mech yet.

Now after a dozen or so hits, resting battery voltage is now 4.0v. Now when you fire, the coil is getting say 3.8v. So just adjust your VV for 3.8v now. Why would either one give you a different vape? And as the battery voltage drops under load, just dial back your VV. So I don't get why some say mechs gives you a better vape? Perhaps it is only a psychological thing or something?

Straight DC is the answer Bill. Most regulated mods are PWM (pulse width modulated) and most people can tell the flavor is diminished with PWM when compared to mechs. Dna mods have straight dc output and I can't tell any difference between them and mechs. There are a few other regulated mods out there that output straight dc, the SX's come to mind, and others with bypass mode.

Dna boards are the only ones that output straight dc in temp control mode as well as power mode as far as I know.

 

[cigatron]

During my first vaping week, despite I was chain vaping a lot I could get close to 7 hours from my Wismec Reuleaux RX2/3 equipped with 3 × Sony VTC5A at 80 watts and .28 ohms on the Wotofo 25mm Troll RDA 2.

Any idea of how many mils of juice you vaped during that 7 hours. In 7 hours I can vape anywhere between 10mils and 25mils depending on what I'm doing at the time. Mils of juice vaped is the ultimate test of efficiency imo.

 

[cigatron]

efficiency is the same as that of the DNA 200 board, which is 97%. According to the official datasheet from Evolv, the DNA 75 board has an efficiency of only 85%.

Pure marketing hype. I'd say the dna200 is closer to 75% whereas the dna75 is closer to 70% (using the same atty, build and batteries drained to the same voltage compared to a mech). Mils of juice vaped is a metric of measurement that can't lie.