Yes, you are right, there is no way to test all combinations. My issue is with the use of the word " generation ". Doesn't say much.
New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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Warning, MAJOR conjecture here:
I think where this will all ultimately go is (if the FDA allows it) is two directions:
I think where this will all ultimately go is (if the FDA allows it) is two directions:
As more data is collected, it might very work out that only one or a few factors are really necessary to assure relative safety. And temperature might very well be a big part of it. Don't build hardware that goes over 475F, and not worry about the infinite number of configurations possible with a wide selection of tank and mods. That way you're not forced to use only closed systems to achieve assurance of low emissions of breakdown products.
Then there are the juices, another quagmire to slosh through.
Edit: Mike, yup. You hit reply right before me. I'd go with your number 2 as well.
How can you build hardware that assures the coil temperature doesn't go over 475, when people are building their own coils with a wide range of wires ( gauge and material ) and different wicks ?
Even with current deeming regulations that could essentially knock every single product out there off the market, the DIY and build crowd was always safe. They can't regulate individual activities, only commercial. Th same would apply here, "You want to build your own? Great, then you're responsible if something goes wrong or makes you sick". I have no quarrel with that.
A high percentage of Vape shops have gone through the business evolution curve from "Boutique Shops" where the owners actually cared, to "Commodity Shops" where they employee minimum wage folks and the focus is "who is bringing in the highest receipts per shift". Education and truly caring about "harm reduction" as a principle, rather than a sales spiel, has been a causality of the evolution.
Neither do I. I just wasn't sure what you meant by ensuring hardware doesn't heat the coil above 475 F.
Oops, I should have made that clearer. And I think, if it does all come down to something like a single variable of temperature as the deciding factor, to have temp limited devices available, with the advanced vapers doing their thing in building and DIY. It does create a problem of hardware working across the spectrum, but with some thought and time something reasonable might be found.
I doubt that " advanced vapers " are even 10% of the vaping population, and most of them have better access to the type of information discussed here, than the general vaping population. I also don't think the FDA cares as much about the diy ( coil and juice ) segment, but i could be wrong !
Even if they do care, there is nothing they can do about it.
(Short of raiding my house with armed escorts.)
Don't put that past them. If they see revenue from it the vaping police will become a reality, especially if left to the bureaucrats.
@mikepetro where is the blog post you made, I've looked and looked but it must be buried. If you can post the link I'd appreciate it.
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/members/mikepetro.122281/#member_blog_entries
1st four blog entries would be relevant.
However:
(I love your apparent motive that I underllined)
It was extremely obvious from your questions that you hadn’t even looked at my testing, as most of those answers are quite well documented in my tests.
Yet you call it “flawed” before you even saw it.
I have seen this quoted several ways, but I like this variant the best:
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance"
(often attributed to Einstein, its roots actually date back to the 1700s)
So @h00ligan, please take the above into consideration when I say:
“I do not wish to engage you any further….”
When these supposed tests actually scan for the carcinogens they might hold some weight but these are just temperature tests unless I have missed some relevant data in this...................
"Supposed"??? Should I be insulted? Are you saying I didnt do them, or are you implying they arent real tests?
They hold weight in telling us what temperatures the coils actually see under actual use. I claim nothing more. Please show me any other test that actually measured the temperature of a coil while someone was vaping it. (interpolated TC measurements dont count) Measuring the temp "while vaping" takes into consideration the mitigating factors like juice flow, airflow, etc under REAL LIFE conditions. Of course each test is only valid for the gear combination that I used, and I have made that clear throughout.
There were many erroneous notions about coil temps throughout this thread, there were also many questions about what temps our coils can actually achieve. That was all I was attempting here, I dont have the equipment to prove anything more.
Any idea why the higher resistance coil would result in higher temperatures at the same power level if it was the same gauge wire ? Wouldn't more coil mass mean lower temperatures ?
I posted this in a different forum years ago in a thread about quotes -
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.
This principle is, contempt prior to examination."
Misattributed to Herbert Spencer .
Actually a misquote from William Paley.
Also from William Paley in Natural Theology : or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity, Collected from the Appearances of Nature (1802)
"Virtue is infinitely various.
There is no situation in which a rational being is placed, from that of the best instructed Christian down to the condition of the rudest barbarian, which affords not room for moral agency; for the acquisition, exercise, and display of voluntary qualities, good and bad.
Health and sickness, enjoyment and suffering, riches and poverty, knowledge and ignorance, power and subjection, liberty and bondage, civilisation and barbarity, have all their offices and duties, all serve for the formation of character: for when we speak of a state of trial, it must be remembered, that characters are not only tried, or proved, or detected, but that they are generated also, and formed, by circumstances.
The best dispositions may subsist under the most depressed, the most afflicted fortunes."
I just read this for the first time today when I was searching that first quote that I've enjoyed for about 22 years.
My take on it is this example from my life:
My wife and I were driving north on Interstate 93 from NH to Vermont on our honeymoon about 8 years ago.
We saw a mess of splattered ducks up ahead with a MC biker holding an injured duck in his arms by the side of the carnage on the road.
We pulled over to offer assistance if we could.
He was a scary, rough 1% MC patched guy with tears welling in his eyes from desperation, frustration & compassion.
He saw cars ahead of him run right through a family of ducks crossing the road without swerving or slowing. No brakelights. Nothing.
He knew the area so we took the duck and followed him to the local animal emergency clinic.
We chatted with him there and he's friends with our friend that's the Prez of a Cape Cod Chapter 1% MC.
It doesn't matter where he came from or what he's done in the past, when it came to that injured duck that he wanted to help he was a 10 year old kid with a good heart.
That was one of the most touching events of my life.
Very common English idiom "don't judge a book by its cover"
origin - Roman author Juvenal (1st and 2nd centuries AD)
For all know it might have been a different gauge wire. The only coil I actually put a caliper on was the 2.4ohm, my 57 year old eyes estimated the others were the same gauge, but I would not swear to it.
Tiny is just tiny after a certain point.
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