New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Would be interesting to read what you experience taste wise, when you start hitting the upcurve, and then backtrack to just before the upcurve. I am a firm believer that I can just taste when bad things are being produced, and can correct the situation causing it, ie, poor wicking, poor wick contact with coil, power level, airflow, etc.

I dont know. I can tell you in previous testing, I didnt start tasting anything bad until I hit around 505F. where I started tasting a slightly burnt taste. Nothing that resembled a dry hit, just burnt. Now that I can measure formaldehyde it will be interesting to see what it tastes like if/when higher levels are seen.

 

[Eskie]

I bet a little bit of research would probably come up with plenty of aldehyde data on stinkies though. Not sure me measuring it would have much value.

There's a ton of data available on that. It's how folks are drawing the inference that in some cases, vaping may release as much formaldehyde as a cigarette.

However, that data will have been obtained by a different method than yours. It's also true your method is not the same as Wang's. None of that is bad. But at some point, some test, and I'm not sure what might be best, to establish accuracy and validity of your formaldehyde data collected using that probe matches, certainly at least in trend, against some form of standard method. Maybe against known formaldehyde concentrations, but maybe against something more dynamic like a cigarette.That would dot i and cross the t to directly measure formaldehyde production by current vape gear against known temperature in the same device/tank/coil.

I don't recall if you calibrated the probe with known formaldehyde standards before use.

 

[AzPlumber]

I'm curious if there is any measurable differences between the different wick materials. This may be tough to determine due to differences in wicking technique.

Another interesting observation would be an new (clean) coil vs old (dirty) coil.

 

[Eskie]

I'm curious if there is any measurable differences between the different wick materials. This may be tough to determine due to differences in wicking technique.

Another interesting observation would be an new (clean) coil vs old (dirty) coil.

Poor @mikepetro , good ideas about this stuff never ends. You might as well apply for a grant at this point. You deserve one.

 

[Rossum]

I bet a little bit of research would probably come up with plenty of aldehyde data on stinkies though. Not sure me measuring it would have much value.

Measuring it using your equipment /technique would add a perspective to your results that couldn't be obtained any other way.

 

[mikepetro]

I'm curious if there is any measurable differences between the different wick materials. This may be tough to determine due to differences in wicking technique.

Another interesting observation would be an new (clean) coil vs old (dirty) coil.

All I can say it that I will start with a calibrated DNA, a fresh TI coil, and fresh rayon wick for every round of tests. My objective is to prove or disprove if "Thermal Degradation" (presumably of VG) is an issue inside a real atty running in the 400-500f range.

The only 2 variables I plan on playing with are temp settings, and juice ratios.

If these are conclusive, I may look at other things in the future, but right now my mission is to characterize "Thermal Degradation" in a real atty.

 

[mikepetro]

Measuring it using your equipment /technique would add a perspective to your results that couldn't be obtained any other way.

Granted, but I dont know how to correlate it.

I believe a standard puff volume for cigarette testing is 50ml, and will be measured as formaldehyde per puff. I can extrapolate a 50ml puff from the data above to determine total formaldehyde per 50ml puff.

 

[mikepetro]

There's a ton of data available on that. It's how folks are drawing the inference that in some cases, vaping may release as much formaldehyde as a cigarette.

However, that data will have been obtained by a different method than yours. It's also true your method is not the same as Wang's. None of that is bad. But at some point, some test, and I'm not sure what might be best, to establish accuracy and validity of your formaldehyde data collected using that probe matches, certainly at least in trend, against some form of standard method. Maybe against known formaldehyde concentrations, but maybe against something more dynamic like a cigarette.That would dot i and cross the t to directly measure formaldehyde production by current vape gear against known temperature in the same device/tank/coil.

I don't recall if you calibrated the probe with known formaldehyde standards before use.

My results of 50/50 at 450 degrees correlate very closely to Dr Kurts results of a Protank.

I just dont think my machine will measure a cigarette without going ""over range" on a single puff.

No, I did not use a "standard" to validate the machine, it is factory calibrated. The only user calibration is to calibrate Zero.

All the standards I priced were as expensive as the meter itself.

http://www.calgasdirect.com/formaldehyde-calibration-gas/

 

[Eskie]

My results of 50/50 at 450 degrees correlate very closely to Dr Kurts results of a Protank.

I just dont think my machine will measure a cigarette without going ""over range" on a single puff.

No, I did not use a "standard" to validate the machine, it is factory calibrated. The only user calibration is to calibrate Zero.

All the standards I priced were as expensive as the meter itself.

Formaldehyde Calibration Gas, CH2O Calibration Gas, CH2O Test Gas

Yikes, those standards are expensive. I don't remember, but what wattage was Kurt using for that Protank measurement.

 

[mikepetro]

The MS formaldehyde deliveries for a Philip Morris monitor and Kentucky Reference 1R4F cigarette were 37 ± 5 and 27 ± 5 μg/cigt.

Just some back of the napkin calculations....

My testing above yielded 0.859 μg/puff for a 50ml puff. How many vape puffs = 1 cigarette?
Lets say 10, so vaping would the equivalent of 8.59 μg/cigt, or about a quarter of that of a cig.

But that isnt my goal, my goal is to document thermal degradation.

 

[mikepetro]

Measuring it using your equipment /technique would add a perspective to your results that couldn't be obtained any other way.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1349907/pdf/amjph00234-0100.pdf

My machine maxes out at 5ppm, well below even the lowest value shown above.

And, without any thermal degradation effect, I am measurring less than 1 ug/puff!

 

[mikepetro]

Yikes, those standards are expensive. I don't remember, but what wattage was Kurt using for that Protank measurement.

Effect of variable power levels on the yield of total aerosol mass and formation of aldehydes in e-cigarette aerosols - ScienceDirect

I misspoke, my results resembled his Subtank results
Device 5 was a SubTank (KangerTech)

I average 0.0152 mg/g at 450f.

BUT, comparing watts to temp is apples to oranges.

 

[awsum140]

Isn't it amazing how many worms that can fit into one, little, can?

 

[440BB]

Just some back of the napkin calculations....

My testing above yielded 0.859 μg/puff for a 50ml puff. How many vape puffs = 1 cigarette?
Lets say 10, so vaping would the equivalent of 8.59 μg/cigt, or about a quarter of that of a cig.

But that isnt my goal, my goal is to document thermal degradation.

Even though it's not the goal, it can be useful as a point of reference to have a rough idea of consumption relative to a cigarette.

It might help more vapers see the reason to make a few adjustments to their vaping style to minimize risk. Distilling the science into something suitable for mass consumption helps IMO.

 

[VNeil]

Isn't it amazing how many worms that can fit into one, little, can?

Yet another project for our intrepid researcher, @mikepetro. He will have to determine the size of a standard worm, though. That in itself could be a can of worms.

 

[VNeil]

A couple questions for Dr. @Kurt regarding his study, if he is still tuned in...

1. Was the "Subtank" a Subtank Mini? Assume so but just checking.

2. Kanger doesn't seem to sell ~0.7R coils now? When I search coils I see 0.5R and then a couple of 1+R coils, but nothing around 0.7. I've owned STMs for years now and don't recall a 0.7 coil but I probably never bought any, only used the RBA deck. Are the coils you used now obsolete? Just curious since this is something many of us could reproduce since many own STMs but maybe the coil you used is no longer available?

 

[mikepetro]

Even though it's not the goal, it can be useful as a point of reference to have a rough idea of consumption relative to a cigarette.

It might help more vapers see the reason to make a few adjustments to their vaping style to minimize risk. Distilling the science into something suitable for mass consumption helps IMO.

OK, let me put it this way. I dont see testing cigs in the cards. If I test 3 different juice ratios at 5 different temps to obtain a very minimal curve, that is close to 100 hours of testing. I am simply not volunteering for anything more right now.

 

[mikepetro]

Yet another project for our intrepid researcher, @mikepetro. He will have to determine the size of a standard worm, though. That in itself could be a can of worms.

 

[AzPlumber]

View attachment 692333

I hope that didn't come out of your can.

 

[mikepetro]

I hope that didn't come out of your can.

Yeah, it sort of did. Its my way of telling everybody I have bitten off all I can chew right now. The worm I am tackling is one big azz worm.

Still open to atty coil testing on request though.