New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Thanks Mike, I know how hard is to come up with a W.A.G. .

I am always over squonking, can't remember the last time i had a dry hit. When I have some time I will try to get a TC BF mod and try to replicate the same setup and check if the feeling I get is in the zone or not. It will be very hard because of the difference in wires to get the same setup and compare though.

Or measure your own setup, it easy and fairly cheap:

How to measure the temperature on your own atty.

 

[mikepetro]

American Cancer Society (ACS) this week endorsed e-cigarettes as a smoking cessation aid for smokers

"These individuals should be encouraged to switch to the least harmful form of tobacco product possible; switching to the exclusive use of e-cigarettes is preferable to continuing to smoke combustible products."

"But we recognize that people quit smoking in many different ways, and most don't go to a doctor or go buy nicotine patches, as much as we would like them to. If a smoker who wants to quit chooses to try e-cigarettes to see if they will help, we support that effort."

BUT.......

"The ACS position statement called on the FDA to regulate all tobacco products, including e-cigarettes, "to the full extend of its authority, and to determine the absolute and relative harms of each product."

 

[stols001]

DW was a big surprise to me too. I did it, reluctantly, because I wanted to decrease temps in my vape (I am PG sensitive).

TODAY, I promise, I am going to start mixing with PEG400. I usually steep for 4 weeks though. And, since I can no longer locate my air purifier, I just bought one for the husband's sake. And mine (I hate the "non-complaints" complaints) LOL, so I'm hoping it keeps him happier (generally) but most definitely in the month to come.

I was surprised at how much 10% DW improved my max VG vape experience though, everything was better (including flavor).

Anna

 

[untar]

PEG400

Make sure you get the appropriate purity, that's the hardest part in vaping with PEG.
At least it's where I live, there's only 1-2 shops that have properly sourced PEG for vaping (and the lab reports to back it up).

 

[CMD-Ky]

Like the Lord, the ACS giveth and taketh away.

American Cancer Society (ACS) this week endorsed e-cigarettes as a smoking cessation aid for smokers

"These individuals should be encouraged to switch to the least harmful form of tobacco product possible; switching to the exclusive use of e-cigarettes is preferable to continuing to smoke combustible products."

"But we recognize that people quit smoking in many different ways, and most don't go to a doctor or go buy nicotine patches, as much as we would like them to. If a smoker who wants to quit chooses to try e-cigarettes to see if they will help, we support that effort."

BUT.......

"The ACS position statement called on the FDA to regulate all tobacco products, including e-cigarettes, "to the full extend of its authority, and to determine the absolute and relative harms of each product."

 

[Impulso]

Environmental Health Perspectives – Metal Concentrations in e-Cigarette Liquid and Aerosol Samples: The Contribution of Metallic Coils

Pasting this here since this is frequented by many knowledgeable people


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kiba]

I read this one

https://gizmodo.com/e-cig-vapor-tested-positive-for-lead-and-arsenic-in-new-1823235170

this morning, seems like they might be referring to the same study

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[mikepetro]

Environmental Health Perspectives – Metal Concentrations in e-Cigarette Liquid and Aerosol Samples: The Contribution of Metallic Coils

Pasting this here since this is frequented by many knowledgeable people


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This whole paragraph is interesting (emphasis mine):

"Metal Concentrations by Voltage, Type of Coil, and Frequency of Coil Change
All metals in Table 2 are shown in these analyses except Cd and Sb, because their concentrations were below 1 μg/kg for most samples. Metal concentrations in dispenser and aerosol samples were not statistically different by voltage (Table 5). In tank samples we found statistically significant differences by voltage tertiles for Al, Fe, and Mn, with the intermediate tertile presenting the highest metal concentrations. For Ni, the difference by voltage was borderline significant (p=0.05) with concentrations also higher at the intermediate tertile (4.00–4.40 V). When analyzed by type of coil, metal concentrations in dispenser samples were similar (Table 6). In aerosol samples, Cr, Fe, Mn, Ni, Pb, and Sn concentrations were higher in those from devices with a Kanthal coil compared with other coils. In tank samples, those from devices for which the user did not know the type of coil showed the highest concentrations for all metals. These differences of metal concentrations by type of coil were not significant (except for Cu in tank samples). There were no statistically significant differences in metal concentrations by frequency of coil change for dispenser and tank samples (Table 7). In aerosol samples, all metals were more concentrated in the aerosol from users who change the coils more than twice per month, with significant differences for Al, Cr, and Mn (Table 7). In tank samples, Al, Cr, Fe, Mn, Ni, and Sn concentrations were also higher for samples from devices for which the participants reported coil change more than twice per month.

If this study is good science, it would lead one to believe that fresh coils introduce more metals than aged coils, and that Kanthal also introduces more than competing (unspecified) coils.

Of course, I also have to ask, is it "voltage" or "temperature" that is the driving variable. I dont know, but I have to wonder.

 

[untar]

Where would the lead (Pb) come from though...

 

[mikepetro]

Where would the lead (Pb) come from though...

Potential sources are the coil cartridge shell. Many cartridges are made of some unknown metal that is plated with SS or some silver colored metal. Scratch one and you will see a different color underneath.

Not to mention, who monitors the purity of the wire alloys being used.

 

[Impulso]

@mikepetro did you see any of these metals that they claim that they saw in any of your experiments? It'd be good to know what exact sources you are using too(mainly so that I can buy them.)

Also the lack of information on breaking them up into temperature, coil makeup, wattage etc is astounding. These researchers should really get a better understanding of what they are looking into. I've never seen papers accepted with such poor understanding of the source material in any other space.

For example - if some dumbo is putting in a Titanium coil and then dry burning for 30 mins at 10000W(making it absurd for the sake of discussion), they would find horrible byproducts created. Can I write a paper now saying that this is dangerous?

 

[lil_buddy]

Potential sources are the coil cartridge shell. Many cartridges are made of some unknown metal that is plated with SS or some silver colored metal. Scratch one and you will see a different color underneath.

Not to mention, who monitors the purity of the wire alloys being used.

I suspect paint inside tanks - because I've always found it suspect (confirmation bias but still...)

 

[Aal_]

This whole paragraph is interesting (emphasis mine):

"Metal Concentrations by Voltage, Type of Coil, and Frequency of Coil Change
All metals in Table 2 are shown in these analyses except Cd and Sb, because their concentrations were below 1 μg/kg for most samples. Metal concentrations in dispenser and aerosol samples were not statistically different by voltage (Table 5). In tank samples we found statistically significant differences by voltage tertiles for Al, Fe, and Mn, with the intermediate tertile presenting the highest metal concentrations. For Ni, the difference by voltage was borderline significant (p=0.05) with concentrations also higher at the intermediate tertile (4.00–4.40 V). When analyzed by type of coil, metal concentrations in dispenser samples were similar (Table 6). In aerosol samples, Cr, Fe, Mn, Ni, Pb, and Sn concentrations were higher in those from devices with a Kanthal coil compared with other coils. In tank samples, those from devices for which the user did not know the type of coil showed the highest concentrations for all metals. These differences of metal concentrations by type of coil were not significant (except for Cu in tank samples). There were no statistically significant differences in metal concentrations by frequency of coil change for dispenser and tank samples (Table 7). In aerosol samples, all metals were more concentrated in the aerosol from users who change the coils more than twice per month, with significant differences for Al, Cr, and Mn (Table 7). In tank samples, Al, Cr, Fe, Mn, Ni, and Sn concentrations were also higher for samples from devices for which the participants reported coil change more than twice per month.

If this study is good science, it would lead one to believe that fresh coils introduce more metals than aged coils, and that Kanthal also introduces more than competing (unspecified) coils.

Of course, I also have to ask, is it "voltage" or "temperature" that is the driving variable. I dont know, but I have to wonder.

This is interesting Mike. Not feeling bad about my 6 months old coil anymore.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

 

[mikepetro]

@mikepetro did you see any of these metals that they claim that they saw in any of your experiments? It'd be good to know what exact sources you are using too(mainly so that I can buy them.)

Also the lack of information on breaking them up into temperature, coil makeup, wattage etc is astounding. These researchers should really get a better understanding of what they are looking into. I've never seen papers accepted with such poor understanding of the source material in any other space.

For example - if some dumbo is putting in a Titanium coil and then dry burning for 30 mins at 10000W(making it absurd for the sake of discussion), they would find horrible byproducts created. Can I write a paper now saying that this is dangerous?

Didnt test for metals, dont have the knowledge nor equipment for that one.

I use mostly Temmco TI wire, or for that matter, for most any alloy I use I will use Temmco if they have it. I trust them more than some Vapes-R-Us branded wire.

 

[ScottP]

If this study is good science, it would lead one to believe that fresh coils introduce more metals than aged coils, and that Kanthal also introduces more than competing (unspecified) coils.

I pointed this out in the thread specifically about this study. It kind of goes with other things I have said about leeching (both with coils and even plastics). There has to be a limit as to how much leeching can occur from a single sample (coil, bottle, etc.) otherwise the sample would actually dissolve completely. So once the initial leeching has occurred it will either happen at a significantly reduced rate thereafter or stop completely. Maybe we can find a way to safely pre-leech our coils before using them?

It could also be that the older coils have been dry burned and cleaned forcing out impurities that would have been leeched, if so it may make sense to dry burn coils when installing them. One other thing that could be a major factor is the mass of the coil. More mass would very likely mean more leeching. So there is another reason for me to stick with my simple single strand wire coils. Also I still feel that SS is going to be the safest bet for leeching considering, as it as been pointed out before, we cook with it all the time.

The bottom line, this is one area we could use some more testing in.

 

[rollersk4te]

This has all been very fascinating, and spurred me to start using the SS TC on my tank instead of adjusting the W. Thanks for this discussion! Keep it going.

 

[mackman]

Mike what are your thought on this premise
A chemist’s advice: Don’t Dry-Burn your coil | Vaping Post

 

[CMD-Ky]

Mike what are your thought on this premise
A chemist’s advice: Don’t Dry-Burn your coil | Vaping Post

The name is Mike but not the knowledgeable Mike. I have wondered about dry burning and what constitutes dry burning, is it white hot or barely orange? I use TC to control the heat of dry burn, in a dark room you can barely see the coil but the crude is then easily brushed off with a dental brush.

 

[ScottP]

Mike what are your thought on this premise
A chemist’s advice: Don’t Dry-Burn your coil | Vaping Post

Name is NOT Mike but here is my thoughts on this. First and foremost they are NOT taking into account the differences in the wire types and just how "flaky" the oxidized coating of each type really is. For Ti that coating is EXTREMELY flaky and is also quite dangerous which is why we even agree to never dry burn Ti wire. SS on the other hand, it's oxidation layer is pretty tough to scrape off with a razor blade when you are trying to make it flake off. So I am less concerned that it is just going to come off on it's own in my vape.

The second thing this story/advice fails to account for, is the increased risk of leeching from fresh coils vs oxidized coils. The study mentioned a few posts above yours, shows higher metal concentrations in liquid with more frequently changed coils but it doesn't even identify which wire types have the least leeching, just that Kanthal seems to be the highest.

The reality, as I have said before, is we need a LOT more testing in these areas. Which wire has the least amount of leeching and which ones leech the least dangerous elements? Which wire has the least flaky oxidation layer and which one has an oxidation layer with the least harmful elements when cleaned? Until these questions can get definitively answered, I will be sticking with SS316L single strand wire, using my coils as long as possible and lightly dry burning and rinsing them to keep them clean and with a strong oxidation layer. Vaping in TC at less than 450F. Based on the information currently available, this is what I personally consider to be the safest possible vape.

 

[mikepetro]

Mike what are your thought on this premise
A chemist’s advice: Don’t Dry-Burn your coil | Vaping Post

I think the article is good. The "safe" thing is not to dry burn, then you avoid any hazard. Moderate dry burning of certain alloys to work out hot spots is probably ok, with some notable exceptions like TI. The key word being moderate. I am not a metallurgist, but I would "assume" that heating any metal to red/white hot is probably going to have some side effects.

Whether or not those effects are more harmful than if you didnt do it, I dunno after that article this morning, and the "leaching" effect that Scot mentioned, there may be something to it.

Lets face it, we are pushing materials WITH THE INTENT OF INHALING THE RESULT beyond what most science has ever studied for that end use. We have a lot to learn if we can minimize the political noise that tends to accompany/motivate these studies.