New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[stols001]

I just mixed using PEG400 for the first time! I will report back... In like a month. I know I will be curious sooner, but I just hate tasting in-steeped juices and I still have plenty left of 90% VG to annoy the husband with! Although I did order an air purifier.

I wash my SS coils, and gently pulse using a q-tip in and around the coil, to swipe away any "grossness." The way I look at it, why not be on the safe side. I think my coils end up cleaner that way than if I just dry burned them.

Because I don't think the "research" we need about leeching is going to be ready by tomorrow, etc. Although yes, it should be studied and that would be great...

Anna

 

[kiba]

I pointed this out in the thread specifically about this study. It kind of goes with other things I have said about leeching (both with coils and even plastics). There has to be a limit as to how much leeching can occur from a single sample (coil, bottle, etc.) otherwise the sample would actually dissolve completely. So once the initial leeching has occurred it will either happen at a significantly reduced rate thereafter or stop completely. Maybe we can find a way to safely pre-leech our coils before using them?

It could also be that the older coils have been dry burned and cleaned forcing out impurities that would have been leeched, if so it may make sense to dry burn coils when installing them. One other thing that could be a major factor is the mass of the coil. More mass would very likely mean more leeching. So there is another reason for me to stick with my simple single strand wire coils. Also I still feel that SS is going to be the safest bet for leeching considering, as it as been pointed out before, we cook with it all the time.

The bottom line, this is one area we could use some more testing in.

If you want to dry burn your coils, the nickel free versions of SS 430 is the way to go imo, it's also got a better tcr than 316L. I also dry burn my NiFe52 coios but I don't try to glow any other wire, pulsed under a faucet or otherwise.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[ScottP]

Speaking of testing does anyone know of a private independent lab capable of testing these types of things? Maybe we could start a Kickstarter/GoFundMe campaign to pay for it. That way we could be sure we got the correct tests, and that it wasn't paid for by an adversarial group.

If so, I would like to have them run tests to determine what I mentioned above about leeching, and dry burning for EACH wire type. If we raise enough money I would like to add in the juice tests Mike and I had been talking about to better understand the effects of adding DW to various juice mixtures and ratios.

 

[untar]

Here's an answer from K. Farsalinos to the metal study
https://www.facebook.com/pg/kfarsalinos/posts/?ref=page_internal

 

[Impulso]

Speaking of testing does anyone know of a private independent lab capable of testing these types of things? Maybe we could start a Kickstarter/GoFundMe campaign to pay for it. That way we could be sure we got the correct tests, and that it wasn't paid for by an adversarial group.

If so, I would like to have them run tests to determine what I mentioned above about leeching, and dry burning for EACH wire type. If we raise enough money I would like to add in the juice tests Mike and I had been talking about to better understand the effects of adding DW to various juice mixtures and ratios.

I’d be willing to donate towards that. Especially if it shows what we should stay away from. This way we can also make sure the testing parameters is real life and from people who at least know what type of wire is used at a minimum. I’d be very interested in incorporating temp control into the equation.


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[Aal_]

Here's an answer from K. Farsalinos to the metal study
https://www.facebook.com/pg/kfarsalinos/posts/?ref=page_internal

That's beautiful

 

[untar]

There was a beautiful post in a german forum about metals and heat, this story is of course making its rounds in german media as well

I thought I'd share it and I think this might be the right place (if not then please help me move it).

This is the original post (in german):
Drahtarten / Behandlung / Bedenken

and this is google translate (some minor explanations below):
Google Translate

Some sentence structure may seem awkward, but I have sort of proofread it and deemed it understandable enough. Nevertheless some quick info relating to things that might befuddle you:
-A "steamer" is a vaper.
-Some metal wires will be adressed with "he" because in our language many things have a gender that don't have one in english (like the sun is female and the moon is male).
-a "PöLa" is a reference to Martina Pötschke-Langer who was the previous head of the german cancer research center, when she didn't outright lie about ecigs she used the classic wouldashouldacoulda tactic to discredit it.

Now I hope I don't have to put in too much manual adjustment to those links
Edit: whaddayaknow - the links worked beautifully, thx forum software

 

[Katya]

Speaking of testing does anyone know of a private independent lab capable of testing these types of things? Maybe we could start a Kickstarter/GoFundMe campaign to pay for it. That way we could be sure we got the correct tests, and that it wasn't paid for by an adversarial group.

If so, I would like to have them run tests to determine what I mentioned above about leeching, and dry burning for EACH wire type. If we raise enough money I would like to add in the juice tests Mike and I had been talking about to better understand the effects of adding DW to various juice mixtures and ratios.

I’d be willing to donate towards that.

Scott, I had a talk with Dr. Farsalinos about four years ago about testing our wires, but it went nowhere. Maybe he would be willing to reconsider now?

This is from an old thread that is no longer quotable, so i'll just copy and paste:

Me: Imeo is using titanium wire (Ti) in his new device. Is that any better? I wish Dr. Farsalinos did a study comparing all kinds of wires used in our coils. I've seen a study where Cr and Ni levels were elevated in vapor, but they were still lower than Cr and Ni levels in ambient air. So, if you vape in Los Angeles, your e-cig vapor is cleaner than the air you breathe....

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ttes-toxic-metals-exposed-2.html#post14050944

Dr. F: For the wires, we have the lab and equipment to perform tests on wires. Unfortunately, we do not have any funding. The idea and protocol of testing wires is ready since last year. But we cannot proceed. It is a pity, because we could easily find the most appropriate wire, which could be used even in large scale production without any problems and without elevating the cost of the products.
It seems that we will not even reach our target for the current crowdfunding, because the response and participation-contribution from the e-cigarette industry is until now disappointing.

Me: As in SFATA? Are they on board? I'm confused--we have donated in the past... http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ate-dr-farsalinos-new-study.html#post11970331

I am sure that many of us would gladly donate to the proposed wire study--we need that information.

Dr. F: I was informed by Dimitris that SFATA has arranged to contribute a respectable amount, but they have not contacted me yet and they have not contributed to the crowdfunding. Since this is already announced by Dimitris, i am sure they will proceed.

Rossum: Yet ultimately, we consumers are the ones who will benefit most from the knowledge your research will bring. So please don't discourage those of us who can afford to help fund that research from doing so, even if we are "just" consumers.

You can follow the entire conversation here--he talks about TC and other things we're discussing in this thread. Very interesting--from here:

Evolv Technology Owners Discussion Thread

To about here:

Evolv Technology Owners Discussion Thread

(Hello, Mike! )

 

[mikepetro]

WOW!, that thread brought back some memories...... Exciting times....

 

[Winblows]

I don't know whether it is the PG, VG or the nicotine, never the less, I do have an "issue" anyway.
When I started to vape (a year ago), I realised, that the skin on my hands became very dry and tend to crack. Periodically I get reddish spots that looks like slight psoriasis.
Last november and december, I didn't vape at all (no, I didn't smoke tobacco either). I just didn't feel the need. The skin irritation disappeared.
Last week, I started to vape again and the same symptoms shows up again.
I wonder which of the components I'm allergic for ?

So, I'm certain about that I'm alergic to PG (in some degree).
My body reacts very aggressive on PG when 'first introduced'. After a while (few weeks) my body 'get used to' and no issues are there.
I reduced the symptoms noticeably by using VG only (almost).
Increasing the amount of PG slowly (ingredient of flavours), my skin irritation stopped to be an issue.

 

[kiba]

So, I'm certain about that I'm alergic to PG (in some degree).
My body reacts very aggressive on PG when 'first introduced'. After a while (few weeks) my body 'get used to' and no issues are there.
I reduced the symptoms noticeably by using VG only (almost).
Increasing the amount of PG slowly (ingredient of flavours), my skin irritation stopped to be an issue.

Try using flavorless & you can have 100% vg, I ditched the flavors a while ago due to my long time concerns of sucralose & other (corn syrup, fructose etc) questionable items in them. I actually like the taste I think most people just are reluctant to actually try it, I vaped for 8 years before ever giving it a go.

I was having some manageable but annoying side effects for years & I quit completely for a little while to confirm its actually from vaping, when I started back up again I went flavorless & made some rules for myself (no vaping indoors/around other people, & mod goes out of my reach when I sleep) & no side effects & everyone's a lot happier. (my gf said it was making it hard for her to breathe at night & I'd literally be doing it in my sleep, waking up clutching a mod)

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Mowgli]

I found I can tolerate about 10% PG.

I had uncomfortable skin symptoms for over a year using 70PG to 70VG.
I finally got some VG based nicotine to try an experiment. I made a batch of 100% VG based unflavored and within 24 hours the symptoms disappeared. After a few days I experimented with raising my PG based flavoring level (in stages) to 12% before symptoms started again.
I use VG nic with 10% (PG based) flavoring with about 4% saline-for-inhalation (to thin it to approximate the viscocity of 70VG). No symptoms at 10PG for me.

Unflavored is a decent flavor. It's not rockstar wow but it's good.
I've vaped 100ml in a row a few times.

 

[ScottP]

I had uncomfortable skin symptoms for over a year using 70PG-70VG.

OK I tried not to, I really did, but I just HAVE to ask: how did you manage to get/make 140% juice?

 

[Mowgli]

70VG to 70PG how does - = / ?

 

[PugLady]

Longterm harm done to nonsmokers would only matter if someone demonstrated there are enough such users out there to justify the effort. I really doubt, regardless of how popular vaping becomes that nonsmokers who vape as much as exsmokers would ever reach a large enough population to justify that expense. Will there be some? Sure. But likely only as a small percentage of total vapers who vape daily.

I agree, tho I am seeing more and more teens getting involved in vaping and that includes the ones under tge legal tobacco age. I live right in an area right between 2 very large high schools and see tons of teens everyday on my route vaping. The ones I see crossing at crosswalks to get to the student parking are usually holding box mods with sub ohm tanks. My point being I think the new trends in vaping are definitely appealing to the current teenage generation. I hardly ever see any of them smoking cigarettes. I think a study should be done on the long term effects of vaping, particularly sub-o vaping on teens that never smoked. The sub-o tanks vring something so different to the vaping table then ever before, the benefit of less nic BUT the increasd amt of vapor. My results story of my thickened lung tissue from 20 yrs of smoking having shown continued thinning and opening/better oxygenation of the deepest lung tissue over the course of 6 yrs of vaping with chest xrays every 6 to 12 mths really cannot be compared to the results someone using a sub-o tank or rda/rta may get. I think the depth of lengthy testing on different variations of vaping would certainly need to be done to get any concrete substantial results. I am a donating member of the CASAA and I put my doctors findings, x-ray reports and current health info in with the current cases thousands of results just like mine to fight these regulations. It's really important we all get involved.
Anyone wanting to contribute to or just get info on the battle at hand can check it out on CASAA.ORG
Have a great day everyone!
Vape on!!

 

[Eskie]

I agree, tho I am seeing more and more teens getting involved in vaping and that includes the ones under tge legal tobacco age. I live right in an area right between 2 very large high schools and see tons of teens everyday on my route vaping. The ones I see crossing at crosswalks to get to the student parking are usually holding box mods with sub ohm tanks. My point being I think the new trends in vaping are definitely appealing to the current teenage generation. I hardly ever see any of them smoking cigarettes. I think a study should be done on the long term effects of vaping, particularly sub-o vaping on teens that never smoked. The sub-o tanks vring something so different to the vaping table then ever before, the benefit of less nic BUT the increasd amt of vapor. My results story of my thickened lung tissue from 20 yrs of smoking having shown continued thinning and opening/better oxygenation of the deepest lung tissue over the course of 6 yrs of vaping with chest xrays every 6 to 12 mths really cannot be compared to the results someone using a sub-o tank or rda/rta may get. I think the depth of lengthy testing on different variations of vaping would certainly need to be done to get any concrete substantial results. I am a donating member of the CASAA and I put my doctors findings, x-ray reports and current health info in with the current cases thousands of results just like mine to fight these regulations. It's really important we all get involved.
Anyone wanting to contribute to or just get info on the battle at hand can check it out on CASAA.ORG
Have a great day everyone!
Vape on!!

From the perspective of long term effects of vaping in nonsmokers you need a feel for how many of those young users actually will continue to vape over time and how much they vape. For those that do continue long term daily vaping that information is quite valuable. The very limited information to date seems to show few of these "first time" vapers are daily vapers but rather use it intermittently. If young people (preferably young adults, not teens who do not have legal access) are only recreational vapers rather than daily vapers the assessment of long term risk becomes harder to determine without many many years of observation. If it becomes a matter of a larger growing population vaping daily gathering that data is more pressing and extrapolation will be needed as waiting 20 years to see what happens isn't the best of ideas.

Then there's the question of how many of those high school students you've seen with box mods and subohm tanks are using juice with nicotine in it.

 

[untar]

I think a study should be done on the long term effects of vaping, particularly sub-o vaping on teens that never smoked

I wholeheartedly and vehemently disagree with this. Apparently we've been bombarded with that "long term studies" tactic so much that now vapers themselves start demanding them. In the absence of any evidence for harm nobody should have a need to see any long term studies. The demands for long term studies got carried over from smoking and applied to vaping because it looks similar, not because there's a real world suspicion founded in science that inhaling PG/VG vapor would be harmful.
We've had people subohming their balls/ladyparts off for nearly half a decade now (I'm losely tying it to the advent of "pinoy" style) and there's not a single medical case tied to the juice consumption. We've had people inhaling PG/VG for over a decade now and there's also not a single report of harm due to vapor.

Let me go through a few points to illustrate why such a study will never come to be and why even if it were it would be useless.

To even make such a study in a meaningful way would mean you need a big number of participants vaping for years to come. How are you going to get those?
What is subohming, is there a definition of vapor volume/time for it? What devices will be used, all of them?
How long do you want the study to be, 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Numbers of participants will be thinned over time (plus they will stop to be teens soon after the start of that study), you can't force teens to vape for the study and it will become more and more meaningless the longer the study goes.
When concluded, will that study be enough? No! I can make up dozens more of potential "long term studies" that need to be done on the spot. What's with atomizers with an airflow of less than 6 miles/hour? What's with a long term study on strawberry+vanilla liquid? What if it's strawberry+melon instead? What about atomizers that have a mouthpiece more than 1.5cm from the coil? What's with all the different coil materials, do we need long term studies on each of those in each gauge and with each type of buld?

It is impossible to control all parameters in a long term study on vaping, there's far too many combinations to make one. The demands for long term studies will never end, no matter how many and what kind of studies are made. I strongly suggest we don't join that choir.

Are you a m2l vaper? If so, why are you concerned about d2l vaping in particular? If you're not, what reason do you have to be concerned?
I'm sick and tired of the vaper communities m2l vs d2l... let's call it "debate" to stay polite, it's counterproductive and divisive.
Every faction should have learned by now to be tolerant of the other, it's a useless debate that won't help anyone. There's different types of vaping that help different kinds of people to stay off of cigarettes, it's no one's business to judge or to think one style is the "true" style and the other isn't needed.

 

[stols001]

I agree with some points above. I don't think that the LACK of longitudinal studies should cause any vaper to stop vaping as it's pretty clear (both through studies, and one's personal experience) that vaping is a pretty effective harm reduction method that actually does reduce harm over the short term, and that is what data we have, short term (although the time frame grows longer every day, and there are less reports of negative outcomes, seemingly, not more). I don't know of a proven case where vaping (if isolated from decades of smoking) has caused harm. There are some slight, relative risks with nicotine, but they seem to be fairly well known and limited.

However, vaping is a new technology. Rather than being like the tobacco companies, who attempted to HIDE long tem findings of harm, we should be requesting long term studies as a) it's a new technology and a lot of people are switching, long term studies ARE possible, and I see no reason not to complete them. At worst, they may offer areas to improve safety, and at best, they will likely (this is my opinion, NOT fact) bear out the conclusion that vaping is a fairly safe long term harm reduction method (which is how I plan to approach it, personally) without major health outcomes.

BUT, I would rather have some decent long-term studies that "show" one thing or another than to say "We shouldn't complete them." We absolutely should, and if the results end up giving me pause, well, I will deal with it then. But we shouldn't be like the tobacco companies and bury our heads in the sand or refuse to do studies out of concern for the results.

It's a new technology. It can help a LOT of people. It should be studied, openly, good and bad (we don't have much choice over this) but it should be evaluated, and longitudinal studies are done because they are useful.

Anna

 

[Eskie]

Any long term study is going to be an observational population study. No one is going to recruit volunteers to vape for 20 years. And those population based studies can provide useful information. I'm not at all sure I get the downside. We use that type of data collection to identify lots of other situations that may or may not turn out to have health related consequences. There's nothing sacred about vaping to excuse it from similar objective scrutiny.

 

[untar]

it's a new technology and a lot of people are switching, long term studies ARE possible

Long term studies on ex-smokers are useless though, it's near impossible to filter out the effects of smoking on health. You need a big number of never-smokers vaping for years, best with nicotine to cover that angle as well. Seeing how unpopular vaping is with never-smokers that's not going to happen anytime soon.

It should be studied, openly, good and bad

It is studied in multiple fields and I'm not arguing for dropping research.

There's nothing sacred about vaping to excuse it from similar objective scrutiny.

I'm not arguing against healthy skepticism, I'm arguing against blanket demands for impossible studies.