New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[cigatron]

Good luck with that when my AC is set to 75 in Florida in the summer.

So your actual coil temp would be off approx 5° from your displayed temp. No bigs.

 

[Eskie]

.....................However, if your atty doesnt have a stable resistance, this refinement can cause problems.

Yeah, that's why I'm always concerned that if the atty isn't maintaining a stable resistance, there's something wrong in a connection and I would rather fix that than mask it by locking it in. But that's just my own OCDish "why isn't it reading it right?" thing going on.

 

[zoiDman]

Is room temperature actually "room" temp or just the temp of the environment you are currently in? I would assume that when setting the resistance it would be the "environment " that you are going to be vaping in. It would be reading the resistance of the coil at that temp to make adjustments.
Ok here is a situation.
You are outside say camping for the weekend. It's 50f (not fun temp for camping, but whatever), you build a coil ect,ect.. set your resistance and your mod still thinks it's 70f. It's off by 20 deg. Does that make a diff? That's my question?

Sorry, Room Temperature was a Bad phrase to use. I should have Been More Specific.

The Temperature of the Wire.

---

If we knew how much of a Resistance Change there was for a Given piece of 316L wire from say 70F to 90F (or 70F to 50F) it would Help in knowing if it really Matters of not.

I'll poke around and see if I can find a Formula for Resistance/Temp.

BTW - 50F is Great Camping Weather! Just have to make use you have enough Fire Wood for each night you are Out there. But that goes for Any Temperature. Because how can you go Camping without a Camp Fire?

 

[Eskie]

I believe the Arctic Fox firmware can display a temp for the board or a temp external to the board but I don't know who to select them. That may be something that requires a PC which isn't handy at the moment. Here's what I see on the screen.
View attachment 640839

The board temp is not necessarily a measure of the mod's case temp, which is what is supposed to be used in calculating the resistance measured at rest, or "cold resistance".

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

The temp said 70F, but what resistance reading was the coil at room temp compared to your freezer?

I'll get back in a few.. popped it back in the freezer few min ago.. it's locked in at .58ohms when I put it in. Will check when it comes out, then I will throw it back in for a few unlocked to see if it does anything..BRB

 

[Eskie]

S
If we knew how much of a Resistance Change there was for a Given piece of 316L wire from say 70F to 90F (or 70F to 50F) it would Help in knowing if it really Matters of not.

I'll poke around and see if I can find a Formula for Resistance/Temp.

BTW - 50F is Great Camping Weather! Just have to make use you have enough Fire Wood for each night you are Out there. But that goes for Any Temperature. Because how can you go Camping without a Camp Fire?

You can find it on Steam Engine. Here's a sample for 28G 316L

Edit: clarity. The numbers of "resistance factor" are multiplied against the actual resistance. so that's a 0.66 ohm build, and at 68F (room temp) the multiple as expected is 1.00000

 

[cigatron]

All DNA boards have an onboard temp sensor used for Room Temp. The challenge comes in when the enclosure is warm from use prior to sticking a coil on there. The DNA can think the room is hotter than it really is. To compensate for this, DNAs do a "refinement" during idle periods, and that corrects any miscalculations in the "cold ohms" calculation that might have been made initially. However, if your atty doesnt have a stable resistance, this refinement can cause problems.

Right, and couldn't care less what a board buried in a mod thinks about the temp of my coil. I let the mod and atty sit for 30min in an environment as close to 68°f as I can find, set base res and lock it.

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

Ok very bad experiment don't anyone try it!

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

The fire button might freeze and auto fire..yeah had to get my battery out fast....my first experiment was in the fridge at 40f. That was safer.... this has been a fun afternoon. The resistance was .57

 

[zoiDman]

You can find it on Steam Engine. Here's a sample for 28G 316L
View attachment 640841

Edit: clarity. The numbers of "resistance factor" are multiplied against the actual resistance. so that's a 0.66 ohm build, and at 68F (room temp) the multiple as expected is 1.00000

I must be having a Low Nicotine Moment (LNM) or something.

But how were/are the Temperatures calculated in the Chart on that page?

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

Gonna leave that mod alone for the rest of the afternoon to thaw LOL, it was only in the freezer for 10 min.. I realized what it was doing instantly, plus it was soo cold it was just a small sizzle going on before I got the battery out, it has the 10 sec safety shut off(was not worried) but I think the freezer is a little to extream, the fridge at 40f is a better condition to test in.

 

[zoiDman]

Gonna leave that mod alone for the rest of the afternoon to thaw LOL, it was only in the freezer for 10 min.. I realized what it was doing instantly, plus it was soo cold it was just a small sizzle going on before I got the battery out, it has the 10 sec safety shut off(want to worried) but I think the freezer is a little to extream, the fridge at 40f is a better condition to test in.

Either way you go, Freezer or Frig, I would take the Battery OUT of the Mod before conducting any more Science.

 

[tj99959]

This is not about dry hits, nor did the test simulate dry hits.

This is about temperature: at higher temps, that are within the range that some people intentionally vape at, even on TC devices, they claim there are nasty things coming out of VG.

I have vaped at 500 before, and it wasnt a nasty burnt hit. Now, it was also a 50/50 mix, and had flavorings, so I have no clue if nasties got involved. My point is the range being discussed is a realistic range that "some" are vaping at.

It is all part of everyone's personal risk analysis. If data points to me reducing my vape by 20 degrees and thereby getting less nasties, for me, it is worth a look. I can easily build a coil that will give me just as satisfying a vape at that lower temp. Change my wire gauge, use a different diameter coil, different # of warps etc, whatever. If I know a target I can build a coil to match it. I can do this because I can measure the temperature on my mod.

However, dry hits are the ONLY time low wattage vapors (below 10 watts) are likely to experience high temperatures.

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

Either way you go, Freezer or Frig, I would take the Battery OUT of the Mod before conducting any more Science.

I think it was the fire button, but yeah no more freezer... if it's -10f outside I'm not hanging out and Vaping in that weather I running to a place that's warm. But we should not be worried at 40f.. people work and vape outside all the time in that weather..

but it is a good idea to take the battery out as well, next time I will.

 

[Aal_]

However, dry hits are the ONLY time low wattage vapors (below 10 watts) are likely to experience high temperatures.

you are ignoring time dimension

 

[mikepetro]

However, dry hits are the ONLY time low wattage vapors (below 10 watts) are likely to experience high temperatures.

And the proof of that is what?
Taste alone doesnt qualify, everybody's taste is different.

 

[David Wolf]

I hope you trust that I'm not one to dismiss any scientific information.

There's a lot being discussed and mingled in this thread. There were actually three "studies."

1. Wang - who heated pg, vg, and e-liquid in a steel tube reactor(not a simulation of vaping) and found the temperatures at which the various liquids release the various compounds and how much. It starts to get bad at roughly 450F.
2. Evolv - collected user data on coil temperatures of their users, they found that users are routinely going above 450F, even low wattage users. They then theorized that because of what Wang found and their data, many vapers re exposing themselves to these compounds. What they did NOT do is confirm that COIL temperatures above 450F result in the formation of these compounds.
3. Kurt - tested various atomizers, reported the results of a subtank at 0.5ohm and up to 35w(I think), and they did not detect any of the compounds outside of dry puff scenarios. He also found that mixing VG, which has a high boiling point, with other liquids that have lower boiling points, does bring down the boiling point of the mixture considerably.

So, like most things in vaping, there's no actual evidence that you need to be worried, but there's no evidence that you're completely safe either. If you want to be extra special cautious, you might want to look into TC.

Thank you for bringing clarity to the facts regarding the studies. I am just now getting a chance to read and watch the videos, meanwhile it seems a lot of folks are running around hysterically shouting "temperature control!" While their TC devices might be off 50 to a 100 degrees F and their juice may well not be reaching the high temperatures as it vaprorizes away from the wick and coil. Still reading my hysteria is on hold lol

 

[tj99959]

And the proof of that is what?
Taste alone doesnt qualify, everybody's taste is different.

Oh that's easy, just let a non smoker take a hit & see if they cough.

 

[David Wolf]

My thoughts exactly. All of the studies we have so far that actually do measure what comes out of the drip tip show that the levels are low to non-existent until you get a dry puff, even for "high" wattage vaping. So, we need a study, using a tc mod, measuring levels at different temperatures in as close to real world usage as possible.

The cynic in me says not to expect this anytime soon, especially not from evolv, unless the results actually do show that the compounds start forming with tc above 450F.

I'm ok with a study like this as long as they validate the temp control mod temperature setting accuracy with an optical pyrometer, minerature thermocouple or some other accurate means first.

 

[David Wolf]

However, if you Check the 350-500℉ range the rise is quite stable and a tcr value would be plenty accurate. Not saying that you're wrong in wanting to use tfr, only that tcr is accurate enough for most of us (particularly if using pretty much the same temperature all the time and having done a dry burn test).

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

Do you want me to show you the charts where some TC devices are off over 50 deg F for stainless steel 316L in that range?