New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[GeorgeS]

Choosing words carefully, it's likely you stay far far below 470 F unless you let the coil dry out. I wish there was a nautilus bvc coil head with temp control wire. That would be a more precise test. I have a Nautilus mini and some spent coil heads but don't have the patience too attempt to rebuild one with stainless wire. Vapers operating tanks at very low watts don't need temp control. But if the medical research and public health establishments are determined to endlessly mislead people may be tootle puffers need temp control to reassure themselves they are vaping at safe temperatures.

The older 1st and 2nd generation atomizers used very thin wire (34-40AWG) that got very hot (hence most of them used Silica wick). These low power 'toodle puffing' devices could be in the danger zone.

While I may have more patience than most the rig that sits on my nightstand is a Nautilus (full size) outfitted with a VVTF v1.0 RBA and Nife wire and Silica wick (set to 380F and 15J). I can get 2-weeks to a month out of the tank and currently ~+6months out of the build. I'd hate to image the coil after +6mos of unflavored 100% VG was vaporized but by all accounts the build is still going strong.

Here the guidance from the available scientific information is not exactly clear. While the stock Nautilus with 2.2ohm coils emit only trace amounts of nasty gasses one of the studies seemed to indicate that 400-420F could be the beginning of the danger zone for pure VG. Given that a TC device is reading the 'average' of wire temperature my setting of 380F might be borderline with the beginning of the danger zone.

While I would normally vape 100% VG between 380-430F (depending on mood and volume of vapor I wished to have) with this new information I no longer 'turn up' my single coil builds to get more vapor and would rather switch to a multicoil setup if I was looking for more volume of vaper.

 

[zoiDman]

This whole thing is conjecture, including your recipe for cookies.

Nothin wrong with my Cookie Recipe.

As long as I don't Breath the Fumes coming off them when I cook them at 450F.

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

It would be interesting to know what kind of plastic is used in the pod systems.(Von Earl..ect...) the coil is only a few mm away from the plastic and it does not melt. There are plastics that can take high heats above 500f. There are others that will melt at lower temps.. These companies had to do some R&D to figure out the temp of there coils and vapor to set up the design of these pods and the material needed to not melt the plastic.. the info has to be out there somewhere. Just an observation.

 

[sofarsogood]

I know you did this test in your RDA, but what metal did you use and what coil (simple spaced, number wraps)?

SV rda clone, 28 guage stainless, 3 mm dia, 10 wraps, 1.38 ohm You'll see the coils are slightly spaced, enough to keep the coil well behaved. This coil is a week old. My coils barely gunk because my DIY uses 1% flavoring and no sweetners. This is the only style atomizer I use. i have several. this is the builld i used in the video, 11 max watts and 400 max temp. i reposted the video of the test below.

Repost of this morning's 11 watt 'torture' test which uses the build above.

 

[cigatron]

Been there, done that. Tried tc on my Evods, PTs, PTm and Aerotanks back in the day when the Evic VT60 had just come out. It works.....sometimes. The base res fluctuates too much because of the rubber grommets.
I did have one work for a few days though. I used 29g wire, the thicker grommet from a PT and the larger pos pin from an Aerotank. It was a very tight fit and worked but after a few days the coil legs cut through the grommet and shorted out.

 

[GeorgeS]

Been there, done that. Tried tc on my Evods, PTs, PTm and Aerotanks back in the day when the Evic VT60 had just come out. It works.....sometimes. The base res fluctuates too much because of the rubber grommets.
I did have one work for a few days though. I used 29g wire, the thicker grommet from a PT and the larger pos pin from an Aerotank. It was a very tight fit and worked but after a few days the coil legs cut through the grommet and shorted out.

I guess it depends on the material (wire) you use. I've outfitted a few Aspire K1's with 32AWG Ti-01 and a few others with 37AWG NiFe70. Interesting that when driven by a VV device the natural tendency of the wire to increase in resistance as it heats up provides a crude 'temperature control' as the power used goes down as the wire heats up. One of the K1's I outfitted gets used on a Evic mini in TC mode.

 

[corn flakes]

I have a bunch of Protank 2's that I use with Spinners for out and about. Generally around 1.7 ohms at 3.8 V with lots of air from the airflow controller. I've ordered some SS 316L wire and I'll try them with that on a Pico and see if I can get any useful information. From what I've read here those tiny 30g coils might not have enough metal mass to give good results with 316 wire. I also have Nautilus, KFL and Lemo tanks. The experiment should work better with those, although the Nautilus coils are also rather small.

Maybe I can find a reassuring way to extrapolate from results from the other tanks back to the PT. I'm not sure what effect the tank has on the temp the coil reaches.

Intuition tells me that the way I use my PT's should be well inside the safe zone, if there even is a danger zone. But like you said, measurements would be more convincing than my intuition.

I've made a couple of changes to the way I vape based on this thread. I turned down the power to the lowest level where I get a decent vape, which is not much lower than I had been using previously. And I've been rewicking sooner. That's another bit of intuition. If a coil is covered in crud, that might act as insulation from the cooling effect of the juice and let the coil get hotter. Actually that's another thing that could be tested quite easily. Let a coil get good and gunked up and see it gets hotter with the same power input.

edit: and I don't chain vape on the same tank.

I would definitely be interested in your results. I am vaping in the same range with less airflow. I vape like I smoked. I didn't light a cigarette, take one puff then put it out. I will have 3 eight seconds puffs within 30 seconds.

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

SV rda clone, 28 guage stainless, 3 mm dia, 10 wraps, 1.38 ohm You'll see the coils are slightly spaced, enough to keep the coil well behaved. This coil is a week old. My coils barely gunk because my DIY uses 1% flavoring and no sweetners. This is the only style atomizer I use. i have several. this is the builld i used in the video, 11 max watts and 400 max temp. i reposted the video of the test below.
View attachment 640751

Repost of this morning's 11 watt 'torture' test which uses the build above.

I came up with similar results using KF5, SS316L 26g, at 420f. I have the air reducer kit in it with the tightest air flow and still would not set off Temp Protection.

 

[cigatron]

Could've been the wire. Maybe dirty, don't know. In those few short days I saw the merits of tc though. Ran out and bought a STmini, built on the deck and never looked back.

 

[CMD-Ky]

If it such a kit does for them what it did for me back in December of 2013, which was to convince me that I might just be able to stop smoking via vaping, then it's priceless.

Plus One on this

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

So I did another experiment.. I've noticed that every time I build a SS316L TC build, before I set the resistance I check to make sure the coil is at room temp. On the Pico it always says 70f. My house can not always be 70f. (Winter/Summer)
So I took my Pico with a single coil RDA and stuck it in the refrigerator for 15 min. I took it out and it read 70f. Impossible. If the mod always thinks it's 70f, then how can it read the coils resistance change accurately if I'm outside in the winter and it's 30f out or wether it is 95f in the summer.... this is a little confusing can anyone explain?

 

[zoiDman]

So I did another experiment.. I've noticed that every time I build a SS316L TC build, before I set the resistance I check to make sure the coil is at room temp. On the Pico it always says 70f. My house can not always be 70f. (Winter/Summer)
So I took my Pico with a single coil RDA and stuck it in the refrigerator for 15 min. I took it out and it read 70f. Impossible. If the mod always thinks it's 70f, then how can it read the coils resistance change accurately if I'm outside in the winter and it's 30f out or wether it is 95f in the summer.... this is a little confusing can anyone explain?

What would be the Resistance Change for 316L if the Coil went from 70F to 30F? Or from 70F to 90F?

Because keep in mind, the TC isn't reading Temperature. Only Resistance Change.

 

[sofarsogood]

Way to go guys. We can do some science too.

 

[Rossum]

So I did another experiment.. I've noticed that every time I build a SS316L TC build, before I set the resistance I check to make sure the coil is at room temp. On the Pico it always says 70f. My house can not always be 70f. (Winter/Summer)
So I took my Pico with a single coil RDA and stuck it in the refrigerator for 15 min. I took it out and it read 70f. Impossible. If the mod always thinks it's 70f, then how can it read the coils resistance change accurately if I'm outside in the winter and it's 30f out or wether it is 95f in the summer.... this is a little confusing can anyone explain?

One might speculate that it doesn't have an ambient temperature sensor and simply assumes 70°F?

 

[cigatron]

So I did another experiment.. I've noticed that every time I build a SS316L TC build, before I set the resistance I check to make sure the coil is at room temp. On the Pico it always says 70f. My house can not always be 70f. (Winter/Summer)
So I took my Pico with a single coil RDA and stuck it in the refrigerator for 15 min. I took it out and it read 70f. Impossible. If the mod always thinks it's 70f, then how can it read the coils resistance change accurately if I'm outside in the winter and it's 30f out or wether it is 95f in the summer.... this is a little confusing can anyone explain?

Good question. Is the 70f the mod temp or the proposed coil temp?
Mod temp is important. A mod that's at a temp greater or than 68°f can impart heat to or sink heat away from the coil. That throws base/cold res off. That said, just let your mod sit for 30min or so at room temp before screwing your atty on to set base res.

 

[zoiDman]

One might speculate that it doesn't have an ambient temperature sensor and simply assumes 70°F?

Yeah... Do any TC Mods have a Ambient Temperature sensor?

 

[Rossum]

Good question. Is the 70f the mod temp or the proposed coil temp?

A TC mod can only measure a change in coil temperature based on the coil's change in resistances. In order to know what a hot coil's temperature actually is, they have to know at what temperature the cold resistance measurement is was taken. I believe all of Evolv's DNA TC boards have an ambient temperature sensor on the board and use that as a reference for the coil's cold resistance -- the DNA40 certainly did.

 

[Rossum]

Yeah... Do any TC Mods have a Ambient Temperature sensor?

See post immediately above.

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

What would be the Resistance Change for 316L if the Coil went from 70F to 30F? Or from 70F to 90F?

Because keep in mind, the TC isn't reading Temperature. Only Resistance Change.

The resistance is set at 70f. So if it's not 70f how accurate is it? That's the question and if you take a mod that is set to work in a room temp environment how does it accurately work in extream weather conditions? But most importantly the coil temp is not 70 at the start of the calibration.

Do other people notice a "pre-set" room temp on there mods?

 

[Rossum]

The resistance is set at 70f. So if it's not 70f how accurate is it? That's the question and if you take a mod that is set to work in a room temp environment how does it accurately work in extream weather conditions? But most importantly the coil temp is not 70 at the start of the calibration.

Ambient temperature shouldn't matter once the mod has learned the coil's "cold" resistance at a known temperature. If it has an on-board temperature sensor, it can continuously refine that reading. Without such a sensor, it would be off by whatever the difference was between the actual temperature at the time it learned the coil's cold resistance and its "assumed" cold temperature.