New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[sofarsogood]

I would be interested to know just how accurate the resistance readings on on any of the TC mods are.
I have spent the last decade or so calibrating test equipment, I can't think of many bits of kit that are able to accurately measure low resistance quickly (multiple times a second) and accurately (to within 0.001 ohms) None of them would come in at the price point of even the high end TC boards. If Evolve or any of the other manufacturers have cracked it then they should move into selling test equipment when the FDA closes them down.....

mods seem to do a very good job of measuring resistance. I have done comparisons with a stand alone ohm meter. Then the challenge is can they measure resistance many times per second. Apparently they can. I'm especially confident about this now that i can see the process happening more or less real time, comparing the peak watts and temp after each puff is instructive. In my situation using an old fashoined rda the main influence seems to be the amount of liquid in contact with the coil. I see predictable behavior as the coil gets less saturated. But the theme here is, how to stay below 470 F. So far that doesn't seem so hard to do unless your hobby is pushing things until they break.

 

[SteveS45]

95W and 500°F in TC mode

 

[sofarsogood]

Are we to assume from the studies that the vapor hits higher than 470f and is instantly cooled by the air flow before it hits our lips and in our mouth? If I use my Narda RDA (clone, could not find the original, dont hate plz) my mouth and tougue remain cool. The distance between my mouth and the coil is less than 1cm. At 31watts 4.2 volts .57 ohms. My vapor is cool.

So either it has hit the higher 470f and has been instantly cooled due to the tiny air flow it has or its not hitting high temps. Which is it and why is it so hard for scientist to accuratly test these things with all the equipment they have?? Are they really looking for the truth? It seems like the only people that are looking for the truth are people in this thread with a serious lack of equipment and a lab.... (and me personally, a Science degree)

Has anyone ever opened a commercial convection oven at 425f? Your whole face feels that blast of heat from over foot away!?? Yes, its larger, but if that fan in the convection oven was blowing the temp of my vapor I would think that it was broken.
Just another observation.

It might be that onlly a tiny fraction of the liquid, resting direcly on the coil gets over heated and the rest is blown away before it absorbs so much heat and may that tiny fraction is the source of the chemicals above 470 degrees. If an atomizer produced the same amount of heat as your oven you wouldn't be vaping on it. May be coil tempeatures below 470 F produce bad stuff to but in amounts so trivial they are not a health issue. Whether something is poisonous is usually related to the dose.

 

[Eskie]

Are we to assume from the studies that the vapor hits higher than 470f and is instantly cooled by the air flow before it hits our lips and in our mouth? If I use my Narda RDA (clone, could not find the original, dont hate plz) my mouth and tougue remain cool. The distance between my mouth and the coil is less than 1cm. At 31watts 4.2 volts .57 ohms. My vapor is cool.

So either it has hit the higher 470f and has been instantly cooled due to the tiny air flow it has or its not hitting high temps. Which is it and why is it so hard for scientist to accuratly test these things with all the equipment they have?? Are they really looking for the truth? It seems like the only people that are looking for the truth are people in this thread with a serious lack of equipment and a lab.... (and me personally, a Science degree)

Has anyone ever opened a commercial convection oven at 425f? Your whole face feels that blast of heat from over foot away!?? Yes, its larger, but if that fan in the convection oven was blowing the temp of my vapor I would think that it was broken.
Just another observation.

The temperature at the coil/wick surface is not the same as the vapor produced, which does cool quickly in the chamber and chimney as cool air is brought and mixed in during the draw. Even in the SS chamber tests of 470F or higher still demonstrated far lower temperatures of the effluent. From their Materials & Methods section
"The temperature of air leaving the reactor was between 25–76°C, depending on the reactor temperature."

Clearly even in a 450F TC setup we're never inhaling a superheated vapor at 450F. If we were, there would be an awful lot of us in the hospital for inhalation burns. The thermal breakdown products are not assumed to be forming in the cooler vapor as it exits the atty, but at the boundary surface between the coil and the liquid.

For now the only way we can infer the temperature of the coil using lowly vape gear is by using our mods in TC and plotting responses. Whether real world testing of attys at the temperatures cited will produce the same breakdown products remains to be determined.

 

[SteveS45]

That is hard to believe. ... while I only used a instant read thermometer, my particular coil ( 1 ohm, 26g wire @20ish watts) saturated with rayon was reading between 200 and 230 ish degrees single coil in power mode

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Forgot to add your quote but here is the external temperature of the coils in my previous post with a Non-Contact Infrared Temperature Probe. And as @sofarsogood stated you are not able to inhale air over certain temperature as it will cook your lung tissue. Think of injuries from being in a fire.

 

[mikepetro]

95W and 500°F in TC mode

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No offense meant, but I dont think that instrument is capable of measuring a coil accurately. While the laser dot may be small, the actual IR detection area is larger than the coil, and I suspect what you are getting is an average of the coil and surrounding area.

 

[SteveS45]

No offense meant, but I dont think that instrument is capable of measuring a coil accurately. While the laser dot may be small, the actual IR detection area is larger than the coil, and I suspect what you are getting is an average of the coil and surrounding area.

It can pin point a hot spot in a wire with accuracy as listed below.

Product Specifications Information:

Accuracy ±2% of reading or ±2 °C (±4 °F)
Ambient Operating Range 32–105 °F
Distance To Spot Ratio 12:1
Emissivity 0.98
Power 9 V Alkaline or Ni-Cad Battery
Protective Case Storage Case
Repeatability ±1% of reading or ±2 °F (±1 °C)
Response Time 0.5 seconds
Temperature Display Selectable for °F or °C
Temperature Range -58–932 °F (-20–500 °C)

 

[mikepetro]

I hear you, but 116F is just so far outside anything I have ever measured, and really, outside of rational thought. If it were 116 you could touch it without burning yourself. Having blistered my finger on coils before, I sincerely doubt that to be the case.

 

[SteveS45]

The 116°F is the exterior temperature of the coil when it is vaporizing e-Liquid as I said.

If you want to prove vaping is creating carcinogens then why are you still vaping?

 

[r055co]

 

[SteveS45]

Over done and don't need a mass spectrometer to see the nasties..........

 

[mikepetro]

The 116°F is the exterior temperature of the coil when it is vaporizing e-Liquid as I said.

If you want to prove vaping is creating carcinogens then why are you still vaping?

That is a gross exaggeration my friend.

I am not trying to prove it is, I am allowing for the possibility that it is.

What I would like to prove is the reality, wherever it may be.

In the meantime staying below 450 is really not that much of a challenge for me.

 

[SteveS45]

That is a gross exaggeration my friend.

I am not trying to prove it is, I am allowing for the possibility that it is.

What I would like to prove is the reality, wherever it may be.

In the meantime staying below 450 is really not that much of a challenge for me.

To be honest to me it looks as if you are promoting this study which is in my opinion flawed and that your motives are not to promote vaping. This is just my opinion and how it appears or is coming across to me and in no way an accusation.

 

[mikepetro]

To be honest to me it looks as if you are promoting this study which is in my opinion flawed and that your motives are not to promote vaping. This is just my opinion and how it appears or is coming across to me and in no way an accusation.

I am promoting safer vaping, if all it takes is to keep the temp down.

And when you "assume" my motives, it is indeed an accusation.

Believe what you choose....

 

[Cosmic_Glaze]

I dont know if this is helpful or makes it more confusing.
VG and PG vs Temperature
Just to show that water inside eliquids is very important for the behaviour in temperature. So, eliquid with different water percentage has different evaporation temperature.

So, my opinion is that eliquids with different water percentage has different evaporation temperature.

When we compare VG eliquid with PG eliquid for the behaviour in temperature they get evaporated, we have to take note for the water concentration inside. All the VG or PG eliquids do not have the same concentration of water and/or flavour inside. If a PG eliquid does not have water at all (only flavour e.g.5% inside) then it is very different to another eliquid of VG having 10-15% water and 5% flavour dissolved.

If you take a close look in boiling points' differentation you will see that 5% difference in concentration give even 30 degrees difference in boiling point (VG 90% or 95% concentrated).

Just to be more accurate and realistic.

 

[awsum140]

I believe I'll have another vape at 440F on my TC mod.

 

[SteveS45]

I am promoting safer vaping, if all it takes is to keep the temp down.

And when you "assume" my motives, it is indeed an accusation.

Believe what you choose....

I am not assuming or accusing which I stated point blank but what I said was how it appears in my opinion.

 

[r055co]

Over done and don't need a mass spectrometer to see the nasties..........

Where's the FDA mandated Nicotine Warning!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[zoiDman]

So long as the deviation is consistent across the range, the absolute accuracy isn't a limiting factor in performance. Of course, that does mean whatever offset required still allows you to be reasonably confident in the temperatures being both produced and reported.

Yeah... The reason I did that little Math Exercise was I got thinking about a TC Mod which is Hardwired at say 70F for Room Temp. And would a Small Variance in Actual Room Temp effect the Calculated Temp?

If a 1 Degree F change is a .000247 Ohms Change in Resistance, It doesn't sound like a 20 (or maybe even 30 Degree) difference would make much Difference.

Because if you Can't Measure something, you Can't really use a Measurement in a Calculation.

And, of course, everything would depend on a Very Accurate TCR being used for a given Coil Wire Alloy. And that the Advertised Alloy was Exactly what the Alloy is Supposed to be.

 

[mikepetro]

95W and 500°F in TC mode

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Extech 42529 Non-Contact Thermometer.