New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[zoiDman]

No people don't understand the data. I am just sick of this thread scaring vapers into not using their equipment.

PM for all the equipment your afraid to use.

So how does your Post(s) help people Understand the Data?

Seem like there are a Lot of people in this Thread Presenting Ideas, Siting Information, Discussing/Debating Concepts. That's how a Person can Better Understand something.

You're Stuck on Idea. And I think you Need to Look at the Bigger Picture.

 

[NU_FTW]

So how does your Post(s) help people Understand the Data?

Seem like there are a Lot of people in this Thread Presenting Ideas, Siting Information, Discussing/Debating Concepts. That's how a Person can Better Understand something.

You're Stuck on Idea. And I think you Need to Look at the Bigger Picture.

I skipped 11 pages, been in the hospital lately, but i havent seen the mention of a NEW TC user posting any calibrating data/feedback to ensure what they were vaping is the correct temp, but in a thread asking for real world data over and over why would these same people only take essentially a very controlled experiment of 1 or 2 uses or 1 or 2 hours as the end all be all data point. To each their own and all, but spreading misinformation is where i draw the line. Not saying you Z just expanding on what you said that i agree with

 

[zoiDman]

ABSOLUTELY, But before making any wild claims that "this build" with "this wire" at "this power level" is SAFE lets see them use it for more than a few puffs more than a day hell more than a week, you cannot even begin to get into every aspect of vaping in 1 puff let alone 1 day... That is what i am saying. I do not want to scare anybody but dont tell people with absolute certainty that what they are doing is "safe" according to this study based on an hour long trial at something you hvae never used (not saying you have or that you are using you informally)



EDIT:

VAPING IS SAFER THAN SMOKING CIGS......... PERIOD.... THis is about what vape is safer than another vape... (at least thats what i thought it was about)

I think there is One Thing you will find if you have read Many of my Posts. I Very Rarely use the world "Safe".

In Any Context.

 

[NU_FTW]

I think there is One Thing you will find if you have read Many of my Posts. I Very Rarely use the world "Safe".

In Any Context.

Like i said, not a call out on you, agreement and expansion is the best clarification of terms

 

[Just Me]

My new Pico came in today. With everything else I'm dealing with right now, I just put it in the box with my back-up mods. I have no idea which SS wire to order for this thing or how to wrap coils for it. Just now, I don't care. But I will eventually (in years?!)

It's cute, though!

 

[zoiDman]

My new Pico came in today. With everything else I'm dealing with right now, I just put it in the box with my back-up mods. I have no idea which SS wire to order for this thing or how to wrap coils for it. Just now, I don't care. But I will eventually (in years?!)

It's cute, though!

What Atomizer do you use?

If you want, I can send you some Pre-Made 316L SS Coils and some Muji Cotton.

 

[David Wolf]

Sounds like a good idea... but does anyone have one, we could get some real answers from that experiment.
As well, do a "Scottish Roll" wicking method too, wrap the thermometer wire in it and see if the cotton inside the coil gets as hot as well, since it's the space between the coils where air flow does not get to as easily.

I posted this link to a video showing some thermocouple measurements earlier:
New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

 

[David Wolf]

With the Price of TC able mods these days, and the Ability to use SS Coils in either TC or Power Modes, I think everyone should try TC.

And if they Like it, Great.
And if they prefer VW, that's Great Also.

I'm Really Big on Individual Choice.

I think we Need More Threads like this. Not Less. Because the More a Person Knows, the Better they can Use something like an e-Cigarette. And the More they can Educate the Ill-Informed about e-Cigarettes that we run into Everyday.

If someone Doesn't have a TC device, I don't think they should be Freaked Out by something like this Thread. Because Myself, and Others, have shown that you may not be Reaching that Magical 480F using a Non-TC Device.

I don't think Anyone should be Afraid of Vaping. Because (IMO) Vaping is Significant Harm Reduce over Smoking.

Some serious wisdom in your post.

 

[NU_FTW]

(REMOVED quote)


So you are unwilling to provide any answers to the previous? i am not advocating selling anything. VAPING IS SAFER THAN SMOKING. BUT SOME VAPING IS MORE HARMFUL THAN OTHER VAPING. PERIOD!!!

 

[Lessifer]

I think you are Reading Too Much into all this.

And are still kinda ...... because people Didn't Believe that your Coils were firing at 117F.

Granted, Steve is a bit passionate, but he's not wrong. MOST of the people reading through this thread have grasped the basic concepts of what little new information we have, and what questions it does and does not answer. However, there have been a few posts, in this thread, of people who are now scared to use their vape gear that they were happy using before they read this thread. That is also something that worries me, and is why I've posted the recap of what was actually presented a few times.

The MOST important thing is that vaping is safer than smoking, period. We don't really have enough information one way or the other to say more than that definitively, though the information we have is pointing towards lower coil temps being safer than higher coil temps.

BUT SOME VAPING IS MORE HARMFUL THAN OTHER VAPING. PERIOD!!!

Actually, while that may ultimately be true, we don't know that, and we certainly don't know the parameters of what would make that a true statement.

Correction, we do know that vaping a subtank at 25W is safer, in regards to the compounds Kurt studied, than a CE4 at 8W or above, if you vape the way a modified smoking machine does.

 

[sofarsogood]

That's a weird resistance for that coil composition though. 10 wraps, 28 ga, 3 mm id (assuming ss316l) should come out closer to 1.15Ω, even assuming fairly long coil legs.

Sent from my K6000 Pro using Tapatalk

I have noticed that the resistance seems higher than predicted too. You can count the loops. My mod agrees with this reisitance. I use two different 3mm rods to adjust the coil. (I'd like to understand better the mechanism that turns this liquid into vapor.)

 

[Katya]

This thread is working just like propaganda from BT/BP and I thought this was supposed have good intentions. I might have we need some regulation but I never said self.

Oh, Steve, dear. Where do I begin...

First of all, this industry has been self regulating from its inception just fine, thank you very much. Thanks to this self-regulation, via discussions like this one and many, many others, vaping is much better and safer than it was in 2007 when it first began commercially available. Nobody was looking out for us and our safety--we had to do it ourselves. And yet, every time somebody brings up a subject of a possible danger associated with vaping, sooner or later they are inevitably attacked for "doing FDA's job for them" or spreading "BT/BP propaganda." Can we just stop doing this? Once and for all. In 2009 Kate raised some questions about diacetyl, later confirmed by Kurt and others. Kurt warned us about risks associated with vaping eliquids containing cinnamaldehyde, oil based flavorings and some questionable sweeteners. Mooch tests batteries and lets us know which ones are safe to use. We discussed the use of crystalline silica as filler in certain coil heads (gone), iffy plastics used for tanks (gone or replaced with better plastics and glass), mod safety (believe it or not, some early mods were made without venting holes--fixed). I could go on, but I hope you get the picture.

Most (if not all) of the great improvements and inventions in vaping started on ECF and other vaping forums all over the world. Big Chinese manufacturers learn from our modders and incorporate their ideas into their products all the time. Everything you're using today was invented either on this forum (or similar forums in Germany, Greece, Russia, England, etc.) by fellow vapers who were not satisfied with the hardware they were using and were hell bent on creating that perfect vape. Carto tanks (thanks, Billy), fillerless clearomizers (thanks Badkolo, Billy, Martinez), RBAs (thanks Raidy--Raidy is a German modder who was also a member here; Imeothanasis--a greek modder; and thank you, our Russian friends for Kayfun and ArcticFox), variable voltage and variable wattage batteries (thank you, modders, inventors, Evolv, ProVape), and now the DNA 40, 60, 75. Why do you think China switched from silica rope to cotton? Because our modders and vapers who use RBAs have been experimenting with different wicking materials--everything from stainless steel mesh, silica rope, ecowool, hemp, alpaca wool, cotton balls, rayon (cellucotton) to Japanese organic cotton.

We didn't know much, but we asked questions, we contacted people who did know--our resident chemists and materials engineers and electricians. Many commercial juice makers started here, as fellow ECF rank and file DIY enthusiasts. And we enlisted real experts, like our favorite cardiologist Dr. F., who is also a member here.

Still have doubts? Behold a carto tank prototype invented in 2010 by our beloved friend Billy (BR5495), may he rest in peace.

Off my soapbox now. Sorry for the rant.

 

[tiburonfirst]

yup! it's been some journey, tweety, and it's far from over unfortunately, we are now looking at aspects of vaping that are much harder to research on our own

 

[kates]

Sorry, long post but it is my final one:

There has been an assumption made that the temps mentioned in the Wang study can be directly applied to temperature controlled vaping - they can't, because the tests were not in any way related to actual vaping (no coil, tank, tc mod or power mod). There isn't evidence of a 'magic number' that we should be vaping below, there isn't any evidence that TC is preferable to wattage (because there isn't a temperature we can identify as being 'safer' when vaping), there are just a lot of assumptions, possibilities, conjectures etc.

Are the tests being done here interesting - yes. Are they proof of anything - no. Should the tests here be happening - well no reason not to providing it is made very clear that they are based on assumption - a correlation that may or may not exist. The 'safe' temp in vaping may be much higher than the Wang study - it may be much lower, it may be the same - nobody knows. By all means discuss, test etc. but please be very clear these test are based purely on speculation and do not give any study an authority it doesn't merit. (This is not a judgment on the quality of the Wang study just on its application re: vaping)

Does it matter? Well yes - it really, really matters. When I started vaping in early 2013 the TPD was going through the EU. At that time there was some vaping research and it was all misreported, misrepresented, misinterpreted etc. - not just in Europe but the press, news programmes etc. everywhere. The EU even misrepresented Dr F's research on comparable nicotine to arrive at the 20mg max. limit (no revision made after they were told it was a misrepresentation by the scientists who did the study). This still happens, regularly around the world. The first time in the UK we got a proper evaluation was when the RCP looked at all the current research available (over 200 studies) which resulted in the 'at least 95% safer' conclusion in early 2016. We are now in a much better place moving forward because at least we know that there is a reputable body that will continue to rigorously asses and re-evaluate the studies (the good and bad) and not use conjecture, assumption and bias (Surgeon-General of USA anyone?) even when much of the media still reports studies incorrectly.

As vapers, we need to look really critically at all studies that are done because if we don't hold ourselves and others to account over research done and conclusions reached - how can we expect anyone else to? Yes - they should be identified, discussed etc. - but if assumptions are being made - please keep that to the forefront of discussions so that anyone coming in at page 10 or 35 or 65 or wherever is aware that the assumptions are exactly that - possibilities, not fact. If someone mentions any figure as a 'safe' temperature or suggests we should swap to tc to be 'safer' this need to be actively challenged because there is NO evidence to support this.

 

[David Wolf]

Granted, Steve is a bit passionate, but he's not wrong. MOST of the people reading through this thread have grasped the basic concepts of what little new information we have, and what questions it does and does not answer. However, there have been a few posts, in this thread, of people who are now scared to use their vape gear that they were happy using before they read this thread. That is also something that worries me, and is why I've posted the recap of what was actually presented a few times.

The MOST important thing is that vaping is safer than smoking, period. We don't really have enough information one way or the other to say more than that definitively, though the information we have is pointing towards lower coil temps being safer than higher coil temps.

Actually, while that may ultimately be true, we don't know that, and we certainly don't know the parameters of what would make that a true statement.

Correction, we do know that vaping a subtank at 25W is safer, in regards to the compounds Kurt studied, than a CE4 at 8W or above, if you vape the way a modified smoking machine does.

The worst thing about this thread is the automatic leap by MANY that above "470F" coils release HUGE amounts of aldehydes. Period. Unless you are vaping out of a tube like in the test there are huge differences. I said earlier I trust those studies that test actual devices far more. Test some current generation vaping devices using TC at 500 deg F, under realistic vaping conditions, let's see the actual quantities released, and then let's talk.

 

[kates]

Sorry, long post but it is my final one:

There has been an assumption made that the temps mentioned in the Wang study can be directly applied to temperature controlled vaping - they can't, because the tests were not in any way related to actual vaping (no coil, tank, tc mod or power mod). There isn't evidence of a 'magic number' that we should be vaping below, there isn't any evidence that TC is preferable to wattage (because there isn't a temperature we can identify as being 'safer' when vaping), there are just a lot of assumptions, possibilities, conjectures etc.

Are the tests being done here interesting - yes. Are they proof of anything - no. Should the tests here be happening - well no reason not to providing it is made very clear that they are based on assumption - a correlation that may or may not exist. The 'safe' temp in vaping may be much higher than the Wang study - it may be much lower, it may be the same - nobody knows. By all means discuss, test etc. but please be very clear these test are based purely on speculation and do not give any study an authority it doesn't merit. (This is not a judgment on the quality of the Wang study just on its application re: vaping)

Does it matter? Well yes - it really, really matters. When I started vaping in early 2013 the TPD was going through the EU. At that time there was some vaping research and it was all misreported, misrepresented, misinterpreted etc. - not just in Europe but the press, news programmes etc. everywhere. The EU even misrepresented Dr F's research on comparable nicotine to arrive at the 20mg max. limit (no revision made after they were told it was a misrepresentation by the scientists who did the study). This still happens, regularly around the world. The first time in the UK we got a proper evaluation was when the RCP looked at all the current research available (over 200 studies) which resulted in the 'at least 95% safer' conclusion in early 2016. We are now in a much better place moving forward because at least we know that there is a reputable body that will continue to rigorously asses and re-evaluate the studies (the good and bad) and not use conjecture, assumption and bias (Surgeon-General of USA anyone?) even when much of the media still reports studies incorrectly.

As vapers, we need to look really critically at all studies that are done because if we don't hold ourselves and others to account over research done and conclusions reached - how can we expect anyone else to? Yes - they should be identified, discussed etc. - but if assumptions are being made - please keep that to the forefront of discussions so that anyone coming in at page 10 or 35 or 65 or wherever is aware that the assumptions are exactly that - possibilities, not fact. If someone mentions any figure as a 'safe' temperature or suggests we should swap to tc to be 'safer' this need to be actively challenged because there is NO evidence to support this.

There is clear evidence that vaping is much, much safer than smoking

 

[tiburonfirst]

The worst thing about this thread is the automatic leap by MANY that above "470F" coils release aldehydes. Period.

yup! especially since:

it may be much lower, it may be the same - nobody knows.

the only assumption i'm prepared to make atm is that indications are 'temperature matters'

 

[David Wolf]

yup! especially since:

the only assumption i'm prepared to make atm is that indications are 'temperature matters'

The way you put that haha um how you puff it matters too I bet

 

[440BB]

ECF is the place where concerns and new information get aired out so that each of us can make more informed decisions, and I am thankful.

This thread led me to better understand things like heat flux and capacity. I now have a bit more focus on coil diameter and wire thickness to keep my temp down. Even a top coil enthusiast/dinosaur can benefit from more information!

 

[tiburonfirst]

The way you put that haha um how you puff it matters too I bet

does that mean the time has come for some proper puff tutorials?