New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Katdarling]

I wouldn't be that categorical. I know way more people quitting today than four years ago when I started vaping, and that's with the liquids available today. It would be difficult to argue that the equipment back then was better, and the liquids available today is suited for today's equipment. Clearly it works for many. We shouldn't be tricked into thinking that "back then" was the better or "more correct" simply because we stick to what we got used to.

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Sorry that came thru as anywhere near categorical, Ken. It was a simplistic opinion from what I knew as a vaper in 2011 and onwards, from conversations with many eliquid vendors from that time (and forward). I'd really have no way of knowing the numbers of quitters now vs. then. I only know from anecdotal evidence as provided by the people selling liquid thru the years, and who they categorized as their target buyer(s).

I do agree that the liquids today are better suited for today's equipment, but perhaps not necessarily for today's vapers-to-be.

I'm terribly sorry if I gave the impression that anyone should be "tricked" into thinking that "was better" or "more correct". It was definitely a time and place, and it evidently worked for many. Thankfully.

I have no klue who stuck to what they were used to. I know I sure didn't.

 

[Katya]

Yup, also remember that the RCP released a report on Smoking and Health with much the same conclusions in 1962 Smoking and health (1962)

Well, maybe, just maybe, the times they are a changin.

Do we even have a new SG? The current one is a total loser.

 

[kates]

PHE should be approached with extreme caution - along with Cancer Research UK and ASH (particularly). They might appear to be facing in the right direction but I'm pretty sure they're not even crawling yet - let alone walking independently! (WHO, of course, are in a class of their own.)
I do try to approach everything with a critical mind - beginning with checking if an opinion or evidenced (suffice to say I do still dry burn my coils ). The problem is it is impossible to look at everything out there in depth and I'm certainly not qualified to assess in detail - I have a full time job, a husband to look after - heck, I struggle to keep up with this thread . Over the years I have built up respect for certain people and do accept their findings with less investigation. I do think the RCP did a pretty good job in their report (I read it but didn't examine/ assess every reference/ link)- but there is inevitably a time lapse between current equipment used and published research/ reports which needs to be acknowledged (and acted on).

 

[KenD]

Just gotta say that I love this thread and the way people (for the most part) argue here. Differences in opinion, but respect towards each other nonetheless. Love it!

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[GeorgeS]

I will ask you for the proof you have that your devices reliably regulate to +/- 5 deg F - have you verified this yourself? Or are you relying on a DJLsb review? Link it, I've looked at the most accurate TC device reviews he has and have seen several devices that have pretty good accuracy around 400-450 deg F there, but not across a range of 350 to 550.

Here's one of the last 'high end' mods I've purchased. I perform a "cotton singe test" with 400F and 420F on each new mod before moving onto the water boil test. There I'll often find a display of 224F while boiling water @ 10J and a temperature setting of 300F. Combined (cotton+water tests) I have high confidence that the mod can regulate well.

So here on TI (ought to be fairly close to the NiFe I use) you caught me - it is 10F high. However surely not 50F or anything that might place a user into the 'danger zone' of temperature:

Note: I did not look for the "best chart" or the "worse chart" I just picked a metal that I use or is similar to what I normally use. NI200 might be much better and the crappy SS3xx alloys are likely much worse.

It is doubtful that Dan has tested ALL of the SXMini's I own as doing a search on "sxmini" only seemed to turn up the Qmini.

To be clear "high end" equate to YiHi SXmini's or devices with DNA200 or DNA75 chips. Also 350F to 450F is my current standard vaping range. For my use a device only needs to be accurate in this range.

However to also be clear, if the cotton and water boil tests come out good that is good enough for me. After all I/we can't count on Dan or PB to make measurements for us, we all have to take charge of our vaping and make informed vaping decisions.

 

[vapdivrr]

Mod womper? Is that been around for a while ? Haven't heard of that one, but sounds kind of neat

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[KenD]

When talking about the low tcr of stainless steel it should also be remembered that it has a relatively high resistance (in comparison to other tc wires). This means that the cold resistance will be higher, and that will increase precision (increase in resistance will be higher in number even though it's lower in relation to the initial resistance when compared to e.g. Ni200). For example, looking at steam-engine.org, a 28 ga 3 mm 8 wrap ss316l coil has higher tc precision number than a comparable ni200 coil. A titanium coil will have a significantly higher tc precision, and a ss430 coil a bit higher precision (higher tcr but lower resistance per length).

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[Layzee Vaper]

I don't own a TC device yet...
But I do have experience in test and measurement.

All of the better quality test equipment manufactures publish the range, resolution and accuracy for what ever it is they are measuring. If you buy good quality test equipment it does not come cheap.

The temperature controllers used in industry follow a similar pattern, they all list the measurement capabilities again good quality accurate equipment will cost you plenty.

In general you can pick any two from the following three:- Accurate, fast and cheap.

It's quite difficult to measure low resistances, quickly and accurately enough to get precise temperature control. Realistically we are looking at a change of a few mOhms in a very short period of time. At these low levels of resistance, the resistance of the atomiser itself, and is connections to the coil and mod may also come into play and will slew the results.

My feeling is that this is still a work in progress, at this stage the higher end stuff seems to be reasonably capable in terms of stopping you getting a dry hit, accurate to within a few degrees across a huge range of wire types, resistances and power levels at this price point I doubt it.

You can bet if the manufacturers of these mods were confident in that the kit was accurate to that level they would be publishing the specifications, just like the test equipment and temperature control guys do.

I would also think that what they have achieved so far is a big step forward in as much as the most likely area for concern is either burning the wick or overheating the juice for an extended period. Mind you large numbers of people have managed that already, by keeping their builds or power levels in a reasonable range and their wicks wet

 

[Eskie]

I don't own a TC device yet...
But I do have experience in test and measurement.

All of the better quality test equipment manufactures publish the range, resolution and accuracy for what ever it is they are measuring. If you buy good quality test equipment it does not come cheap.

The temperature controllers used in industry follow a similar pattern, they all list the measurement capabilities again good quality accurate equipment will cost you plenty.

In general you can pick any two from the following three:- Accurate, fast and cheap.

It's quite difficult to measure low resistances, quickly and accurately enough to get precise temperature control. Realistically we are looking at a change of a few mOhms in a very short period of time. At these low levels of resistance, the resistance of the atomiser itself, and is connections to the coil and mod may also come into play and will slew the results.

My feeling is that this is still a work in progress, at this stage the higher end stuff seems to be reasonably capable in terms of stopping you getting a dry hit, accurate to within a few degrees across a huge range of wire types, resistances and power levels at this price point I doubt it.

You can bet if the manufacturers of these mods were confident in that the kit was accurate to that level they would be publishing the specifications, just like the test equipment and temperature control guys do.

I would also think that what they have achieved so far is a big step forward in as much as the most likely area for concern is either burning the wick or overheating the juice for an extended period. Mind you large numbers of people have managed that already, by keeping their builds or power levels in a reasonable range and their wicks wet

And this is why I'm bothered by simply assuming TC in it's current functionality is a surefire way of assuring safety. It is asking a lot, even on a "higher end" board, which is still pretty cheap in comparison to sensitive testing equipment. While accuracy would be great, I'd be happy with simply a consistent offset across the range typically vaped and the wire I use (I'm not too self centered here ). About the only DIY home test helpful that in the range is a cotton burn test. But the lack of factory specs does suggest less than complete faith by the manufacturer in the product being marketed.

Hopefully a manufacturer will go ahead and either perform testing themselves or fund a study by qualified researchers. That is of course in reference to aldehyde production at various temperatures. A manufacturer should be able to offer up temperature performance of their own product given that bench testing that must have been done before marketing their board, right? Hopefully?

 

[mikepetro]

I know Evolv has said in various videos that they claim +/- 10 degrees, assuming the correct wire and settings.

 

[Eskie]

I know Evolv has said in various videos that they claim +/- 10 degrees, assuming the correct wire and settings.

If so, I'm a happy camper.

 

[NU_FTW]

 

[Lessifer]

Mod womper? Is that been around for a while ? Haven't heard of that one, but sounds kind of neat

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Been around for awhile, though I doubt it exists outside this board. A few of us noticed we didn't quite belong in either the tootlepuffer or cloud chaser group, so we made our own Mid range wattage, usually accompanied by somewhat higher nic, and for some of us less liquid consumption. Not that it really matter but there's a thread out there if you'd like to chat it up.

 

[Eskie]

That was about 50 pages back. But glad you're caught up

 

[NU_FTW]

That was about 50 pages back. But glad you're caught up

lol yeah I stopped participating because everything that can be said with current info has been said

 

[classwife]

So...let's not be trolling this thread...

 

[David Wolf]

Here's one of the last 'high end' mods I've purchased. I perform a "cotton singe test" with 400F and 420F on each new mod before moving onto the water boil test. There I'll often find a display of 224F while boiling water @ 10J and a temperature setting of 300F. Combined (cotton+water tests) I have high confidence that the mod can regulate well.

So here on TI (ought to be fairly close to the NiFe I use) you caught me - it is 10F high. However surely not 50F or anything that might place a user into the 'danger zone' of temperature:

Note: I did not look for the "best chart" or the "worse chart" I just picked a metal that I use or is similar to what I normally use. NI200 might be much better and the crappy SS3xx alloys are likely much worse.

It is doubtful that Dan has tested ALL of the SXMini's I own as doing a search on "sxmini" only seemed to turn up the Qmini.

To be clear "high end" equate to YiHi SXmini's or devices with DNA200 or DNA75 chips. Also 350F to 450F is my current standard vaping range. For my use a device only needs to be accurate in this range.

However to also be clear, if the cotton and water boil tests come out good that is good enough for me. After all I/we can't count on Dan or PB to make measurements for us, we all have to take charge of our vaping and make informed vaping decisions.

I think you've done your homework. Even 10 degrees is extremely accurate to me, and I've seen some of the data around 400 or so degrees accurate within 5 degrees, so I'm going to call you right about some quality devices you have being very accurate. I'm impressed with your own testing and research. How's that for a reply?

 

[mikepetro]

Does someone have a link to this "boil test" being referenced?

LOL, a mental picture of dunking my Mod upside down in a thimble of water just doesnt sound quite right. Oooops, there goes another DNA........

 

[Katya]

Accurate, fast and cheap.

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...

 

[tiburonfirst]

Does someone have a link to this "boil test" being referenced?

LOL, a mental picture of dunking my Mod upside down in a thimble of water just doesnt sound quite right. Oooops, there goes another DNA........

thought for sure you'd have your answer by now, mike!
could it be just plain water in the tank and watching for it to boil?