New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

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Rossum

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we've seen people vaping, going on 10 years now ... has there been any cases where someone has actually been diagnosed with cancer, caused by vaping?
Even when a smoker comes down with lung cancer, nobody can say with certainty that his particular case was (or was not) caused by smoking, because people who have never smoked and never spent much time around smokers come down with it too (although substantially less frequently).

So let's say a never-smoking vaper comes down with it. Can it be diagnosed as "caused by vaping"? I don't think so. I think all that can really be done is to look at cancer rates among different groups, and the most interesting groups would be people who've ever smoked or vaped and people who do vape but never smoked. Vapers who previously smoked for decades are probably the least interesting group to look at because that history of smoking muddies the waters tremendously.
 

DaveP

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I know my lungs showed damage after 5 yrs of smoking, so that's why I think if vaping was as a bad, something would have shown by now.

To get a clear picture of that sort of thing a CT Scan is more revealing. After 40 years of smoking my lung x-ray showed normal lungs.

A year later a routine CT Scan of the chest to check my Aorta for aneurysm bulges (commonly done at 65) showed my Aorta to be fine, but I had several tiny calcified nodules in my lungs (smaller than 1mm). Those are common according to the doctor and aren't a concern as long as they don't suddenly grow. He wants to do a future scan to make sure. Repeated radiation may be worse over time than ignoring it. Radiation is cumulative.
 
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Asbestos4004

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I tear down buildings for a living. That means, I have to deal with asbestos quite often. That means, I have to get a pulmonary function test annually. Before I started vaping, I smoked 1-2 packs a day for about 30 years. The pulmonary function test was always tough to pass. It usually took 3 or 4 tries. I hated going because the doctor would always take the opportunity to point out what an idiot I was for smoking between attempts.
After 7 months of vaping, I passed the test on the first try. A year after that, the doctor rebooted the machine and had me do it again. He thought there was something wrong. After 5 years of vaping, he says I have the lungs of a never smoker.
I can't imagine vaping is in any way "good" for me. But, so far, it seems like it's not bad for me.
 

Canadian_Vaper

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To get a clear picture of that sort of thing a CT Scan is more revealing. After 40 years of smoking my lung x-ray showed normal lungs.

A later routine CT Scan of the chest to check my Aorta for bulges (commonly done at 65) showed my Aorta to be fine, but I had several tiny calcium nodules in my lungs. Those are common according to the doctor and aren't a concern as long as they don't suddenly grow, but he wants a future scan to make sure. Repeated radiation may be worse over time than ignoring it. Radiation is cumulative.
It really is different for everyone, different genes...
 

Canadian_Vaper

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I tear down buildings for a living. That means, I have to deal with asbestos quite often. That means, I have to get a pulmonary function test annually. Before I started vaping, I smoked 1-2 packs a day for about 30 years. The pulmonary function test was always tough to pass. It usually took 3 or 4 tries. I hated going because the doctor would always take the opportunity to point out what an idiot I was for smoking between attempts.
After 7 months of vaping, I passed the test on the first try. A year after that, the doctor rebooted the machine and had me do it again. He thought there was something wrong. After 5 years of vaping, he says I have the lungs of a never smoker.
I can't imagine vaping is in any way "good" for me. But, so far, it seems like it's not bad for me.
Not sure how these things worked but he showed me it on a bar red/yellow/green, before I quit i was on red just under the yellow, 2 years later I'm far into the green, above average...
 

Asbestos4004

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Not sure how these things worked but he showed me it on a bar red/yellow/green, before I quit i was on red just under the yellow, 2 years later I'm far into the green, above average...
Yep, I've seen the bar graph...but us demolition folks are pretty simple. We have to blow in a tube to make the fireman shoot water onto the fire on the computer screen. Before vaping, there wasn't anything I couldn't tell you about that fireman. Now, we're not even friends anymore. :lol:
 

mikepetro

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Crossposting this here since it is about this thread:

I think you mean Wang. It was not an ecig, it was a reactor vessel with glass wool soaked in e-liquid solvents. For temperature data, could be argued to be a good study, and useful. For relating it directly to ecigs, especially new-generation atomizers, I think this is very misleading. The link to the thread you give has a video of John Bellinger's talk at National Academies of Sciences in DC, which I spoke at, as well. Yeah, if you get the liquid hot enough it decomposes. That said, we have looked at several atomizer types at higher wattage, and there are some that are remarkable in not decomposing the e-liquid, even without TC. Currently we are looking at TC with respect to emissions.

But the bottom line, in my opinion, is that if you are producing significant aldehydes you will know it, since it will give a bad taste, at best, or be unvapeable, at worst. Some older models, like the CE4, produce aldehydes at all wattages we looked at, especially above about 7 W. Thus people naturally gravitated away from these to better performing atomizers at higher wattages, and the manufacturers met that demand with atomizers that are very efficient at producing clean vapor. It is hard to find the CE4 now on websites, or else if a vendor has them, they can't give them away, even for $1.50. People don't want them. So naturally, this is the most popular atomizer for researchers to study aldehyde emissions. Sarcasm off. This was one of the points I told the NAS: be very wary of studies on emissions that use older models at high wattage. Consumers are not doing this, and the atomizers were never designed for high wattage. Making statements about the dangers of aldehydes using devices not designed for high wattage, and producing aldehydes at extreme amounts, is simply not addressing current reality, and those levels would never be tolerated by a vaper, even for one puff.
 

awsum140

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What they miss or mis-state with their "bullet points"...nicotine is addictive, about as addictive as caffeine and any burning of organics, not just tobacco, potentially produce dangerous byproducts. In fact an argument can probably be made that "pure" tobacco cigarettes may not be as harmful as their "modern" versions (missing a few thousand "emhamcers").
 

JUDGMENT AFFIRMED

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Not surprised you got a kick out of it, I figured you'd get my drift. :D

Here's another, this one an instructor played for us during a transmission rebuilding class back when I was twisting wrenches.


Your a genius, SlickWilly - the perfect solution to the hacking problem we have in America.
 
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WillyZee

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in a nutshell ... they were too late in hijacking the vape industry (I believe they are still trying to do that right now), there are now millions of vapers like myself who will continue to vape for the next 20-30 years with exactly what we are using today (low watts with no TC).

therefore, over the next 10-20 years we will KNOW one of these theories is correct ... either vaping is healthier than smoking and we will see concrete proof in folks like myself, or we will KNOW that vaping causes Cancer and is the same or worse than smoking.

Even with these so called "New Studies" ... I am leaning towards low watt vaping being a much healthier alternative than smoking.

Looking forward to see what the "New Studies" will reveal 10 years from now ... I'll still be vaping the same ProVari/Kayfun @7.5 watts.
 

kiba

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I believe I've read somewhere that there is always some bad chemicals in vapor but usually in trivial amounts that have no health consequence. Less heat is better than more heat. In the last few days i've been vaping around 300 F instead of the usual 400 but leaving max watts at 30. The last puff, a moment ago, maxed at 300 F and took 10 watts to get there because the wick is getting dry. It was a satisfying puff. When I want some harder hitting puffs I'll re drip. The temp won't change or might go down a bit, watts will go to near 30 and there will be more warmer vapor even though the max temp has not changed. So the coil temperature will stay the same but it will be generating a lot more heat because of the additional liquid trying to keep it cool. If the liquid can never get hotter than the coil (at least on the planet's surface) then I'm getting the vape I want 170 F south of a West Coast meltdown.

Could a metal alloy be formulated specifically for vaping that had advantages over all the existing metals being used? May be there could be a wire that keeps the kanthal crowd happy and still be used for temp control. A metalurgist might be able to answer that one.

NiFe52 is pretty good, dry burnable, tastes like kanthal, has a good TFR range for TC, can be used in wattage. I prefer SS 430 bc it tastes cleanest but NiFe52 is a good one that never really caught on. Another one is NiFe30 (resistherm).
 
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Mowgli

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My zivipf 430ss browns cotton at .00142. Still very close % wise.
I just got my zivipf today. I sorta remembered that .00142 but wasn't sure so I started at .00138 and adjusted up and presto, no browning until .00142 :thumb:
I'm glad I found a use for my box of KGD that I haven't used since I visited Sally's.

dual coil single 24ga isn't as flavorful as dual twisted 28ga but be this flavor is subtle.
Very clean wire as received compared to the Unk.
I wiped the zivipf with iso on a vaper towel and it left no trace.
The Unk is fine after an alcohol wipe but this stuff arrived clean.

TC at 420 is dry. 45W in power mode is great but the long TC hits dry my mouth.
SS is fine in PM but TC just seems dry to me until I can feel the heat at 450+
I've dropped 20W-30W depending on the flavor and I think that's good enough for me.
I'm OK with a safer vape that I like.
 
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cigatron

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I just got my zivipf today. I sorta remembered that .00142 but wasn't sure so I started at .00138 and adjusted up and presto, no browning until .00142 :thumb:
I'm glad I found a use for my box of KGD that I haven't used since I visited Sally's.

dual coil single 24ga isn't as flavorful as dual twisted 28ga but be this flavor is subtle.
Very clean wire as received compared to the Unk.
I wiped the zivipf with iso on a vaper towel and it left no trace.
The Unk is fine after an alcohol wipe but this stuff arrived clean.

TC at 420 is dry. 45W in power mode is great but the long TC hits dry my mouth.
SS is fine in PM but TC just seems dry to me until I can feel the heat at 450+
I've dropped 20W-30W depending on the flavor and I think that's good enough for me.
I'm OK with a safer vape that I like.

Yeah, I'm the one that said my zivipf 430ss browned dry cotton at 142. Glad to see they're consistent.
Wondering what wattage you were running in TC. It shouldn't take longer pulls or be a dry vape.
If you liked it in PM @45w then you should be running say 60w in TC. The higher you run the wattage in TC the faster it will ramp up to temp. Don't worry about over temping, your mod will turn the wattage down as it approaches your set temp.
 
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xtugap

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Conclusion:
Now I'm thinking Provape close the doors because FDA make a partnership proposal and they refuse. Evolve accept because they are still able to sell their Chips and make money and FDA can do whatever they want to regulate the vaping industry (at least in US), or one more weapon I don't know.
Why Provape and Evolve??? 1st - They are American. 2nd - Because the pick two of the biggest popular and reputable in the vaping Industry for we believe what they say is true.

This is sad.... Really sad!
I am wrong????? Maybe...
But fell free to share your thoughts.
 

KurtF

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Thanks for posting this study, mikepetro. Before I saw your post I had found another similar experiment, based on actual temperature and not wattage, and while the experiments are completely different, they yield nearly identical results.

Here's the study I found: Safe Vape Temperatures
 
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