New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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Either your TC is not set up right, or your eliquid has a low boiling point.
If indeed you are running at 330 then you are golden!
not trying to derail it. I thought this was about all tc vaping, maybe a change of title is in order for this thread if this is a device specific discussion.
Another thing that concerns me is how I got pushed away, swept under the rug when looking for help. After all this time I thought I wouldn't experience that on this forum.
As previously said, I have shelved most of my mods because of this thread.
Another thing that concerns me is how I got pushed away, swept under the rug when looking for help. After all this time I thought I wouldn't experience that on this forum.
As previously said, I have shelved most of my mods because of this thread.
An interesting chart that shows what happens as you dilute VG:
ETA: This was when VG was mixed with water. Mixing with pg would result in higher numbers.
ETA: This was when VG was mixed with water. Mixing with pg would result in higher numbers.
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BTW - I meant to Mention this Yesterday when you had your "Experiment" going. But maybe you would consider doing a Quick one with the TC set at 330F or 350F.
It would ne Nice to see what Vapor comes of the Coil at say 330F. And if the TC Temp jives with the Thermal Couple Temp.
BTW2 - I would be Interested in this Mainly because you DIY your e-Liquids. So the Amount of Water in the e-Liquid would be Known.
Huh?
The title reads "carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps", which is more about carcinogens than any specific TC device.
I honestly dont see how anybody "pushed you away". Please cite an example. If you are referring to me saying I didnt test a VTC mini, then sorry, but I dont own one so I cant speak to it. I tested what I own, which is DNA and Dicodes Mods.
Shelving your Mods was a personal decision, not anybodys fault here.
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I have already torn down my test rig and put it up, so it isnt going to happen today LOL.
All I can say that I set a mod, that I validated as being accurate in the 400-450 degree range, on 330 and didnt get any meaningful vapor, just a tiny wisp. That was with 50/50 juice.
Can't Blame you for Not Wanting to set things up again.
As someone who writes a Lot of CNC Code, I tell people that Running a 1-Up Part doesn't take any Time at All.
It's doing the Set-Up that takes the Time. And sometimes doing a "10 Minute" Part can take 2 Hours (or longer!) from Start to Finish.
Hehehe, yep!
I tore up the thermocouple I was using yesterday, they are small and delicate. I have 3 more but I would have to prepare them first. To get the thermocouple into the atty I have to start with no coil and take the air reducer out, then thread the tc in there, then put the air reducer back in. Then build/install the coil. It is a small project to set up.
Anyway, start a running list of other test scenarios and I will do what I can next go around.
I know the dry cotton test was mentioned. First I would need to get some cotton and acquaint myself with the procedure. I have never done it before, I always just used Steam-Engine to get my TCR curves. I jumped straight from hemp to rayon in my wick progression, so I have only played with cotton once or twice and that was for someone else's atty.
An interesting chart that shows what happens as you dilute VG:
ETA: This was when VG was mixed with water. Mixing with pg would result in higher numbers.
Here is one for PG mixed with water:
Same thing with woodworking or metal machining.
I can bang out 10 box-joint boxes in say 3 hours.
It'll take at least an hour for the first one because of setup.
Also figure in 6 hours + drying time to design/build an accurate jig.
1 box = 7 hours
10 boxes = 9 hours
Old picture. I miss having my own shop but I don't miss ashtrays.
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If you are taking Scenario Requests, I'll throw one in.
Per the above chart, 5% Water is supposed to Lower the Boiling Point of Pure VG to 332F. A Test e-Liquid @ 95%VG : 5% H2O would be something to consider Testing.
Lower Wire Temp =?= Lower Toxins
If Simply adding a Small Amount of Water could reduce a Toxin Inhaled in Vapor, that be Kinda Monumental.
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Yep... That's why I kinda Kicked myself for not thinking of Scenarios/Suggestions for Mike to consider Yesterday while everything was Set-Up.
It's a Drag to do One Set-Up/One Cut. And Saturday only comes around Once a Week.
Many do this already, usually for viscosity reasons. Odds are that most VG liquids, especially if they contain flavoring, have pretty safe boiling points for the purposes we are discussing here. I think the trick is not to burn them hotter than is needed to boil them off. Start at a low TC setting and slowly increase until you get an acceptable vapor. For those without TC devices, start at a low wattage, and slowly increase the wattage until you have acceptable vapor, and not push it past there.
Another tidbit I found, the boiling point of nicotine is 476 degrees.
I have been searching for chart that shows the boiling point of various pg/vg mixtures but have not come up with one yet.
Flavorings, and other additives, would come into play as well, and most flavorings dont publish this data.
Since the trapped juice below the coil could be pressurized, its boiling point could be raised, so I tend to agree with this, as I stated in my post the juice in contact with the coil could approach coil temperature.
I never claimed that it was "all flashed off at the boiling point", that is not what I said Mike. Here is what I said:
"I suspect juice in direct contact under the coil approaches coil temperature while most of the juice vaporizing does not.."
I stand by what I said, based on the fact that the juiced wick is cooler (your own tests proved that as well as common sense), and that the temperature of the juice and the wick will decrease as you go away from the coil. PG boils at 370.8 deg F as you stated, and though I haven't seen the data, I surmise that a 50/50 PG/VG mix is likely to boil a good bit below 500 deg F, so yes, juice can vaporize at a lower temperature than the coil with high PG. If this chart is correct, simply by adding 5% water to a pure VG juice you drop the boiling point from 554 deg F to 332 deg F. Adding a little water to PG has a similar effect:
VG and PG vs Temperature | atmoslab.com
So it is very plausible that most of the vapor from a juice with high PG and/or VG with a little water and flavorings vaporizes away without ever reaching the coil temperature. I did notice in the study (referenced below) the pre-made juices tested had less aldehydes than pure VG.
I suspect what you tasted "different" was overheated cotton, or burned juice (gunk), I know that taste. Unless you are saying you tasted some aldehydes?
I don't know. Look at your cotton is it darkened under the coil like mine? I do agree with the concept that if you are vaping at a power or temperature level your juice tastes bad, don't do it Agreed.
In speaking about the mod, you are talking coil temperature, and the study was on PG/VG/juice temperature. I would consider this a very conservative recommendation, and that's fine for what it is. The temperature of the juice boiling depends on your PG/VG ratio and % water in your juice.
For an example of why testing actual devices can vary significantly from this study of LIQUID (not coil) temperatures in the OP, see this:
Effect of variable power levels on the yield of total aerosol mass and formation of aldehydes in e-cigarette aerosols
The study shows for example that a Kanger subtank with a 0.72 U bottom-coil-head produced only 0.34 micrograms per puff of formaldehyde at 25 Watts (Table 2). [The liquid used for all samples was 48% (wt/wt) propylene glycol (PG) and glycerin (GLY) with 2% nicotine]
Based on the study Study: High Voltage and Formaldehyde Output From E-Cigs temperature of the LIQUID does indeed matter. Also based on the same study the type of liquid matters - whether you use high PG, or high VG, and % water matters. Also based on the study the quantity of juice you vape matters. From the study:
"These results suggest that the total amount of carbonyls emitted from e-cigarettes is not only closely associated with the vaping temperature but also with the e-liquid mass consumed by vapers. "
I vape 80pg/20vg, 2 ml a day. I'm feeling pretty good about that regarding this study of juice temperatures (not coil temperatures I emphasis once again), without even using temp control
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I know I add Water to ALL my DIY Mixes.
Yes, it improves Wicking. But I also think it Improved Taste. At least, the Taste I am looking for.
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With the Hodge Podge of Flavorings, Sweeteners, Varying Levels of Nicotine and possible Water found in a Given e-Liquid, the Boiling Point of the e-Liquid might be Hard to Theoretically Extrapolate.
And Testing with a Thermometer or Thermal Couple would probably be Needed.
BTW - Can you see why a PMTA is going to cost Mega Bucks?
LOL
Water vaporizes far below it's boiling point. What I read is liquid molecules are moving, have velocity, all different velocities at random.So a molecule on the surface of a liquid has enough velocity to break free but gravity pulls most of them back. Heat up the liquid and the average velocity increases and more molecules escape and don't fall back into the liquid. End result, vapor. My everyday eliquid mix is in the signiture area below, pretty average. I just took a puff, got good vapor and warmth and AF firmware says max temp was 316 F. Every time I rewick I check resistance with dry cotton. The coil is testing the same for several weeks. I look for the cotton to be barely singed at 420 F setting.
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