New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Rossum]

What does Formaldehyde taste like?

I dunno what it tastes like, but having spilled a bottle of it once in a science class in 6th or 7th grade, I know it has pretty distinctive smell.

 

[David Wolf]

I dunno what it tastes like, but having spilled a bottle of it once in a science class in 6th or 7th grade, I know it has pretty distinctive smell.

Anyone who has ever put up cheap pressed wood paneling or bought pressed wood furniture knows what formaldyde smells like

 

[Rossum]

I still think it's a mistake to assume that the aldehyde production vs. temperature curves are the same between the "reactor" in the study and the coils in our atties. Think about how little time juice spends at high temperatures at the coil in our vapes, vs how much time it might do so in that "reactor". Consider that you can pass your finger through the flame of a candle or Bic lighter without it hurting a bit; it only becomes painful if you leave it there for more than a few hundred milliseconds.

 

[David Wolf]

I still think it's a mistake to assume that the aldehyde production vs. temperature curves are the same between the "reactor" in the study and the coils in our atties. Think about how little time juice spends at high temperatures at the coil in our vapes, vs how much time it might do so in that "reactor". Consider that you can pass your finger through the flame of a candle or Bic lighter without it hurting a bit; it only becomes painful if you leave it there for more than a few hundred milliseconds.

Oh I've read plenty enough studies on vaping devices to know without a doubt that the reactor results and actual vaping devices are NOT the same, on the whole, vaping devices produce far lower levels of aldehydes than the reactor which had all of the juice at the temperatures in the test, and in devices not all of the juices in the wick being vaporized are at the same temperature of the coil. That is why I caution folks to not take the "reactor" test as indicative of what they would get with coils at the same temperatures. The merit of the reactor test lies in knowing what PG and VG do IF the liquids reach those temperatures. There are a lot of calculations, testing, and analysis required to know what the level of aldehydes you get from vaping a given tank setup and coil temperatures, and that is not in the "reactor" study. If you have a coil at 475 deg F, you might get 1% of juices vaporizing at that temperature, you might get 10%, with the rest below that temperature (your mixture being a variable). Without testing vaping devices, you just don't know.
My conclusion - I don't dismiss the reactor test, I value it, it proves that VG and PG alone can produce aldehydes at higher liquid temperatures, and that its not just flavorings that can produce it. This knowledge, and the more important results from vaping device studies, should lead us to safer vaping, and that is something the wild west of vaping needs. Nothing I have read to date leads me to believe that vaping is as hazardous as smoking, even the table I linked to earlier shows how much worse cigarettes are in releasing aldehydes and other harmful substances. But vaping can be made even safer with knowledge, and knowledge is a good thing.

 

[mikepetro]

Oh I've read plenty enough studies on vaping devices to know without a doubt that the reactor results and actual vaping devices are NOT the same, on the whole, vaping devices produce far lower levels of aldehydes than the reactor which had all of the juice at the temperatures in the test, and in devices not all of the juices in the wick being vaporized are at the same temperature of the coil. That is why I caution folks to not take the "reactor" test as indicative of what they would get with coils at the same temperatures. The merit of the reactor test lies in knowing what PG and VG do IF the liquids reach those temperatures. There are a lot of calculations, testing, and analysis required to know what the level of aldehydes you get from vaping a given tank setup and coil temperatures, and that is not in the "reactor" study. If you have a coil at 475 deg F, you might get 1% of juices vaporizing at that temperature, you might get 10%, with the rest below that temperature (your mixture being a variable). Without testing vaping devices, you just don't know.
My conclusion - I don't dismiss the reactor test, I value it, it proves that VG and PG alone can produce aldehydes at higher liquid temperatures, and that its not just flavorings that can produce it. This knowledge, and the more important results from vaping device studies, should lead us to safer vaping, and that is something the wild west of vaping needs.

I agree with all of this.

My testing did show me that something happens at 505F, both on the stove (akin to the reactor in that all juice was exposed at once) and in the atty. I could taste that stovetop smell in my atty at that temp.

So there is a correlation, to some degree.

 

[David Wolf]

I agree with all of this.

My testing did show me that something happens at 505F, both on the stove (akin to the reactor in that all juice was exposed at once) and in the atty. I could taste that stovetop smell in my atty at that temp.

So there is a correlation, to some degree.

Mike your testing was invaluable to my understanding of coil temps and vapor production and quality with various ratios of PG, VG, water at various temperatures. Some of your tests provided more benefit to vapers than the contrived non-realistic "scientific" testing of vaping that I've read. I owe you my thanks for that, so thank you!

 

[GeorgeS]

Well in some of those tests, they ran the EVOD 2 up to 5V! Talk about burnt hits, no way anyone would ever vape an EVOD at 16.7 Watts, lol. That's why I only referenced the comparison Table 2 with the EVOD 2 at 3.7V.

I have some EVODS - still use them. However mine are 2.4ohm single coil. VERY thin wire. (1.8's are to HOT and 2.2's are borderline useful)

One of the reasons I have a spool of 37AWG NiFe70 - I planned on replacing the coil with something that reacts to temperature. On a fixed output device using TC wire is a poor mans temperature limiting.

 

[mikepetro]

I have some EVODS - still use them. However mine are 2.4ohm single coil. VERY thin wire. (1.8's are to HOT and 2.2's are borderline useful)

One of the reasons I have a spool of 37AWG NiFe70 - I planned on replacing the coil with something that reacts to temperature. On a fixed output device using TC wire is a poor mans temperature limiting.

How would that work?

 

[GeorgeS]

How would that work?

Fixed resistance wire like Kanthal, Nichrome (and others) will draw the same amount of power as long as the fire button is pressed. Hence the longer the button is pressed the hotter the coil will get.

TC wire increases resistance as it heats up. Therefore as it heats up it draws less power from the battery until at some point it will naturally level out.

Just for proof of concept I've outfitted an Aspire K1 with a TI-01 (32awg) build in which I use on my VV mods. (I also use a TI build on my CopperVape squonker - mechanical mod)

This actually might be a good recommendation for the purely mechanical unregulated crowd. Use TC wire to limit the temperature of your coil.

 

[zoiDman]

Fixed resistance wire like Kanthal, Nichrome (and others) will draw the same amount of power as long as the fire button is pressed. Hence the longer the button is pressed the hotter the coil will get.

TC wire increases resistance as it heats up. Therefore as it heats up it draws less power from the battery until at some point it will naturally level out.

Just for proof of concept I've outfitted an Aspire K1 with a TI-01 (32awg) build in which I use on my VV mods. (I also use a TI build on my CopperVape squonker - mechanical mod)

 

[mikepetro]

Fixed resistance wire like Kanthal, Nichrome (and others) will draw the same amount of power as long as the fire button is pressed. Hence the longer the button is pressed the hotter the coil will get.

TC wire increases resistance as it heats up. Therefore as it heats up it draws less power from the battery until at some point it will naturally level out.

Just for proof of concept I've outfitted an Aspire K1 with a TI-01 (32awg) build in which I use on my VV mods. (I also use a TI build on my CopperVape squonker - mechanical mod)

Hmmm, that small of a resistance change doesnt seem like it would have that huge of an effect, but I guess it would have some.

When I tested SS430 in wattage mode, I got pretty high temps at 15-20w. And it got hotter with chain vapes or restricted air/juice flow. I didnt see much limiting effect there, but then I didnt compare it to kanthal either.

 

[GeorgeS]

Hmmm, that small of a resistance change doesnt seem like it would have that huge of an effect, but I guess it would have some.

When I tested SS430 in wattage mode, I got pretty high temps at 15-20w. And it got hotter with chain vapes or restricted air/juice flow. I didnt see much limiting effect there, but then I didnt compare it to kanthal either.

You have to consider wire that will double in resistance from cold-to-hot and a fixed voltage mode. (or user set VV mode) (a quick look at the tables in SteamEngine show which wires nearly or more than double their resistance between cold and hot)

Many VW devices will read the resistance of the coil when the fire button is pressed and then dial in a voltage to hit the wattage the user selected. Each time the button is pressed the mod will dial in a higher voltage to achieve the selected wattage. Hence it will get hotter and hotter.

On a fixed voltage device (like a mech or regulated VV) the output voltage remains the same as the resistance of the wire is going up. Hence the coil draws less power as it gets hotter and eventually stops getting hotter.

I've ran 1.8ohm SS430 builds on my Sig VmaxV5's in VV mode.

 

[zoiDman]

You have to consider wire that will double in resistance from cold-to-hot and a fixed voltage mode. (or user set VV mode) (a quick look at the tables in SteamEngine show which wires nearly or more than double their resistance between cold and hot)

Many VW devices will read the resistance of the coil when the fire button is pressed and then dial in a voltage to hit the wattage the user selected. Each time the button is pressed the mod will dial in a higher voltage to achieve the selected wattage. Hence it will get hotter and hotter.

On a fixed voltage device (like a mech or regulated VV) the output voltage remains the same as the resistance of the wire is going up. Hence the coil draws less power as it gets hotter and eventually stops getting hotter.

I've ran 1.8ohm SS430 builds on my Sig VmaxV5's in VV mode.

How often does a Modern VW Board read the Ohms of Coil?

Only when the Power Button is Pressed?

 

[beckdg]

I just found this new study which compares Blu ecigs to what they are calling a "second generation" device (lol), the EVOD 2 with a 1.5 ohm coil (dual coil I believe from Googling it, though they don't say it). It shows the EVOD 2 releasing much higher aldehydes and other stuff than the Blu, even at the same voltage (3.7v).
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acsomega.6b00489
What I find interesting (and fair) is that in Table 2 they include a traditional cigarette for comparison.
Aldehyde Detection in Electronic Cigarette Aerosols
EC01-03 are Blu various flavors, EL01-EL06 are the Evod 2 with various store juices.
If the EVOD 2 is 1.5 ohm dual coil, then each coil must be 3 ohms, and therefore very small diameter wire, and thus I suspect runs at much higher temperatures than my typical devices. This is consistent with the study that showed the CE4 giving off high levels of aldehydes compared to the Nautilus and Kanger Subtank Mini. My takeaway from these type studies of actual devices is that tiny wires lead to higher temperatures and thus higher levels of aldehydes. Note in Table 2 however, that even the EVOD 2 devices produce less aldehydes than traditional cigarettes.
Update: Thinking further, the Blu likely has a smaller wire than my typical tanks, though not likely as small as the 1.5 ohm dual coil EVOD 2, so there could be other factors involved as well, perhaps the juices, whether or not the Blu puts out the full 3.7V or is limited or regulated, PG/VG ratio, etc.

2 things come to mind.

The blu would have been a carto with the coil surrounded by wet wick much, much larger than the coil.

The blu would also have a much smaller battery less capable of holding it's V under load.

As an aside, the air flow in a carto is forced to all go through the coil completely.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

[GeorgeS]

As examples (@4V):

SS430 1.4ohm cold, 1.747ohms hot (200C), 11.42W cold, 9.15W hot
Ti-01 1.4ohm cold, 2.324ohms hot (200C), 11.42W cold, 6.88W hot

 

[mikepetro]

As examples (@4V):

SS430 1.4ohm cold, 1.747ohms hot (200C), 11.42W cold, 9.15W hot
Ti-01 1.4ohm cold, 2.324ohms hot (200C), 11.42W cold, 6.88W hot

Interesting, I have never messed with those wires in that fine of a gauge. My TI coils usually came out around 0.15 ohms, and my SS430 are coming out around 0.3-0.4 ohms. I use much thicker though, about 26awg.

 

[mikepetro]

I would test that out with a thermocouple to see actual temps, but I dont even own a VV mod anymore.

It was a VV that got me off the stinkies though! I long ago PIFd it to someone, cant even remember who, when I discovered VW.

Saw a T-shirt yesterday, and immediately thought "I resemble that"!

I am old enough that:
I have seen it all...
I have done it all...
I just cant remember it all.........

 

[David Wolf]

As examples (@4V):

SS430 1.4ohm cold, 1.747ohms hot (200C), 11.42W cold, 9.15W hot
Ti-01 1.4ohm cold, 2.324ohms hot (200C), 11.42W cold, 6.88W hot

Yes, a much higher positive temperature coefficient of resistance than most of the wires we use for vaping non-TC. I saw someone else mention NiFe70 somewhere as well:
Nifethal 70 Wire 30ft Spool
You're ahead of us (well, me at least) on this NiFe wire George. Will be interesting to hear your observations of how it vapes.

 

[mikepetro]

Damn, I dont have my mojo working today. Sat down to rebuild a couple attys, dual coil Aromamizers. After an hour just to get one right, I am hanging it for today.

 

[440BB]

Hope you didn't get too hot under the collar or boiling mad...