New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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You cant "destil" PG from VG. If you heat a liquid in a beaker, the gas phase will always be a mixture of both, with a higher PG ratio compared to the liquid.
However, our atties are no beakers on a heater. Think of an atty more as a hot plate where you drop a small amount of liquid on. All of it will vaporise almost immediatly. If all of your drop is vaporised, the gas phase will have the same composition as your liquid.
Read the first page in the thread, then read my last two blog posts. That will bring you to speed.
And level of concern is only in nuances. Vaping is ~95% safer than smoking, paying attention to the temperature you are vaping can make it even safer.
I tried both. Several problems with an infra thermometer, the dot size being measured is usually much larger than the coil, so you get an average of the coil and the surrounding area.
And with both, the Flir camera, and the thermometer, you have to do it with the tank off and coil exposed. In other words you dont get the real life scenario of airflow, and a normal vape hit.
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I tried both. Several problems with an infra thermometer, the dot size being measured is usually much larger than the coil, so you get an average of the coil and the surrounding area.
And with both, the Flir camera, and the thermometer, you have to do it with the tank off and coil exposed. In other words you dont get the real life scenario of airflow, and a normal vape hit.
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Ahhh, good points!
Even a glass bead thermocouple is going to shield the measured section coil from airflow too.
Is the test set-up for the original study known?
It's a bit of a Shrodinger's cat, measuring it affects the D.U.T.
Only alternative I can think of is take absolute measurements of coil temp and resistance and plot the curve. Air flow should be negated for plotting the curve as it will skew surface temp of coil.
Then use curve to calculate coil temp in situ.
Same as a TC mod does(I presume) but with lab equipment you should (theoretically) be able to achieve a much higher accuracy.
I would help out but I have no way of accurately measuring the temp... a bit of a sod as I have the rest of the equipment.
Isn't that always the case with test gear though!
OK, so on the testing I did last weekend I was using a teflon insulted 30awg thermocouple. It worked fine on my 26awg coil. The downside was that the teflon insulation was only rated to 500F and did not hold up to temps any higher.
To get a good response from the sensor, the sensor wire needs to be finer than the Atty coil wire.
Now, these Kangertech nichrome 1.5ohm coils look like about 30awg inside. I think my existing thermocouples would be too large. So I ordered 2 different types of 36awg thermocouples. One with Kapton insulation good to 600F, and another with braided glass insulation good to 900F. I also ordered a Kapton one that is 40awg good to 600F.
The glass braid (code GG) has a great temp limit but I dont know if it will hold up to the juice.
If I tuck the sensor through the top of the cartridge, in between the coil and the cotton, and then snake the sensor lead wire up through the center, and screw all the parts back together, it will probably work. I would cut a hole in the side of the drip tip for the sensor wire so that my mouth doesnt disturb the wire with each hit, it wont take much to break this setup.
Going from right to left in photo below...
Anyway, this is as close to tootle puffer as I think I can get with what I have available to me.
Once the new thermocouples get here I will run it on a DNA device in wattage mode and see what happens.
To get a good response from the sensor, the sensor wire needs to be finer than the Atty coil wire.
Now, these Kangertech nichrome 1.5ohm coils look like about 30awg inside. I think my existing thermocouples would be too large. So I ordered 2 different types of 36awg thermocouples. One with Kapton insulation good to 600F, and another with braided glass insulation good to 900F. I also ordered a Kapton one that is 40awg good to 600F.
The glass braid (code GG) has a great temp limit but I dont know if it will hold up to the juice.
Anyway, it is worth a shot...
If I tuck the sensor through the top of the cartridge, in between the coil and the cotton, and then snake the sensor lead wire up through the center, and screw all the parts back together, it will probably work. I would cut a hole in the side of the drip tip for the sensor wire so that my mouth doesnt disturb the wire with each hit, it wont take much to break this setup.
Going from right to left in photo below...
Anyway, this is as close to tootle puffer as I think I can get with what I have available to me.
Once the new thermocouples get here I will run it on a DNA device in wattage mode and see what happens.
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That's kind of a problem, don't ya think?
If you're going to measure tootle puffer results, it seems to me that you would have to measure the gear that tootle puffers use.
That would mean from the cartomizer through too the KayFun I would imagine.
However I think I would start out with a simple 510 atomizer.
That's where many of us tootle puffers started, and most of us set up our current gear to taste just like our old 510s tasted.
Add:
I was looking at your thermo graph and it would seem to me that "average, etc" doesn't matter. We are only interested in the highest point. So the only problem I see is that you can't duplicate actual vaping air fuel ratio (AFR) at the coil, which will effect temperature with that type of measuring device. So it's good for seeing if a TC mod is working properly only.
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I tucked the sensor in between the wick an the coil, so the airflow over the coil was not restricted.
Are you asking about my tests, or the Wang Study tests?
The Wang Study.
Was thinking of this after I posted and it is quite a tricky little problem.
I think your set-up there is pretty "Shmick" as a certain Auzzy might say!
Will have to read through the thread when I get time, been running around like the proverbial blue arsed fly this last few week.
Was thinking of this after I posted and it is quite a tricky little problem.
I think your set-up there is pretty "Shmick" as a certain Auzzy might say!
Will have to read through the thread when I get time, been running around like the proverbial blue arsed fly this last few week.
I dont see it as a problem, I was asked "Have you the ability to test temperature of smaller wire? (32ga/33ga)" and I think I am coming pretty damn close. I have no intention of testing every generation of device out there, just trying to put a few questions to bed where I can.
Unless I am mistaken, the TopTank Nano is gear that a tootle puffer might use (its what my GF uses), at least I would call it tootle puffer with the 1.5 ohm coil (10-26w) running on a VW device.
Same atty as these.
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The Wang Study made no attempt to duplicate an atty. It was basically just a temperature controlled fog machine. They were simply testing at what temperatures do PG and VG start decomposing into nasties.
With the IR Guns, all you get is an average, you dont get a true "peak" within the target zone. I have tried several different guns, multiple times, and I was never able to obtain coil readings I would trust.
Now, that Fluke Ti27 camera is the cats meow. I have used it ever since the early DNA40 days to gain confidence in TC tech. It will definitely tell you if your TC mod is reading correctly. "Control" however is a different matter, as once you introduce a load (air/juice flow) things "could" be different.
The problem I often got when presenting those photos is that people would come up with a variety of things to discredit it. Like "no way that a saturated coil with good airflow could ever reach those temperatures". And they were right in the respect that it didnt truly measure the conditions (under load), inside the closed environment of an atty, which has ton of variables.
Thats why I landed on the thermocouple method. I can check and trace the calibration all the way back to the NIST. It is measuring the temp in real time, inside of the closed atty environment, with all the variables of a normal vape being accounted for.
TBH though, I normally just use the "Device Manager" in Escribe when troubleshooting my own issues. I have validated it enough that I have full confidence in it as long as I know the correct TCR for my wire. I am doing these thermocouple tests mainly to see what happens in VW mode as Escibe doesnt show that, and also to answer the question "how do you know if your mod is telling you the truth".
I think your design is great. Being able to see what happens with a factory 1.5 ohm coil at low wattage will be really interesting. The idea of threading that thermocouple in looks sound, with the only concern I would have would be any leaking. Otherwise I can't see an alternative setup better than what you sketched out.
Another cloudy vape shop's air tested:
The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: Government Testing of Another Vape Shop Reveals No Cause for Concern about Secondhand Vaping
This time it was conducted by the National Institue for Occupational Health and Safety.
The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: Government Testing of Another Vape Shop Reveals No Cause for Concern about Secondhand Vaping
This time it was conducted by the National Institue for Occupational Health and Safety.
"S" before "H"
NIOSH
NATIONAL
INSTITUTE
FOR
OCCUPATIONAL
SAFETY
AND
HEALTH
CDC - The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH)
Journalist mucked it all up.
Poor editor didn't catch it.
NIOSH & OSHA are household names. More so than CDC & EPA in many industries.
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
NIOSH
NATIONAL
INSTITUTE
FOR
OCCUPATIONAL
SAFETY
AND
HEALTH
CDC - The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH)
Journalist mucked it all up.
Poor editor didn't catch it.
NIOSH & OSHA are household names. More so than CDC & EPA in many industries.
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
So I haven't been back to this thread in a while, there's no way I can keep up with it, do we have any new information?
Just some temperature testing of a coil, inside a real atty while vaping normally.
Also the use of some TC wire in a VV mod to limit temp as the wire got hotter.
More/less what I expected. DNA temps are accurate +/- 10 degrees, coil temps can indeed get up to and exceed 500F in VW mode, I couldnt taste anything bad until about 505F, lower Boiling point ejuice requires less temp for a good vape, boiling ejuice on the stove will give you a nic buzz, etc. See my last two blog posts for the results.
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