New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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Depends on the spacing and the wicking.
And of course, the ticker the wire, 1) more power needed, and 2) more heat retention (requires more cooling time) less power when temp reached when chain vaping.
Also,there will also be a difference between tank models or RDAs..
And for the wicking, well, a good wick that slurps the liquid very well will make a huge difference compared to a sippy one.
That's part of my point.. getting two perfectly identical coils by hand is very difficult (with a 1-5% discrepancy) so one coil being perfect at 380, the next one could need to be at 410 to match it's experience. So the temp is just a setting to balance the experience.
You make a lot of good points, but I would differ in opinion on this one:
Remember the context of this whole thread is staying below the "absolute" temperature as which PG/VG degrade into nasties (if Wang is to be believed). If you skew your TCR than you have no idea what your temp really is.
The "instant dry hit pushing away liquid" theory is interesting. Do you have any references for that phenomena?
I dont play with the TCR to get the experience I want, I adjust the temperature to get the vape I want. If a mod is accurately calibrated to the wire being used then the TCR shouldnt be messed with. Accurate is accurate. Adjust your temp, or coil build, to get the vape you want.
Remember the context of this whole thread is staying below the "absolute" temperature as which PG/VG degrade into nasties (if Wang is to be believed). If you skew your TCR than you have no idea what your temp really is.
The "instant dry hit pushing away liquid" theory is interesting. Do you have any references for that phenomena?
Agreed, thats why I would not recommend dry burning Ti or Tu. I just clean mine with some IPA and dental toothpick type brush.
yup.. go put a pan on your stove and heat it up really hot, then drop a few water drops.
The heat causes a steam "barrier" that prevents the whole drop of water to be evaporated instantly, it's being "pushed" by this radiating heat.
The Leidenfrost effect, we discussed it much earlier in the thread.
Leidenfrost effect - Wikipedia
Basically, a liquid cannot get hotter once vaporized by heat, unless you have a pressure containment. But the point of vaping is the outflow.
The air around it can be heated to an extent, by a level of the many factors (how the deck is built, the airflow, the wicking, the coils, the positioning, the air temperature, the tank's design, the tank's airflow, the amount of liquid present, power used, etc.)
But at some point, you can balance a lot of these factors to produce more clouds/vapor, but this would be more of a ratio per second and condensing the amount (number molecules in a cm3 for example). This would decrease the rate of heat/energy lost, but it still wouldn't be hotter than the less dense "cloud", just that due to the density, it wouldn't lose the heat as fast, and hence feel warmer.
The air around it can be heated to an extent, by a level of the many factors (how the deck is built, the airflow, the wicking, the coils, the positioning, the air temperature, the tank's design, the tank's airflow, the amount of liquid present, power used, etc.)
But at some point, you can balance a lot of these factors to produce more clouds/vapor, but this would be more of a ratio per second and condensing the amount (number molecules in a cm3 for example). This would decrease the rate of heat/energy lost, but it still wouldn't be hotter than the less dense "cloud", just that due to the density, it wouldn't lose the heat as fast, and hence feel warmer.
I'm not happy with the 'reactor' part of this either.
It seems to me that all the studies that have been performed so far with actual vaporizers (except the one where they dry burned it) have not detected any of these toxins in vapor, yet when the 'reactor' is used, all of a sudden it's producing more formaldehyde than a cigarette?
To me, this is no different to that other study where they produced loads of formaldehyde by dry burning the hell out of the device.
The 'reactor' is clearly not accurately mimicking the way liquid is vaporized in a conventional vaporizer.
What is this 'reactor' anyway? I read the study, and it said it was a stainless steel tube. That's not a very helpful description.
Did the thing even have a wick, or was the liquid just heated until it boiled away?
I'm calling absolute bull***t on this one.
All it proves is that their 'reactor' is badly designed and does not mimic that way a real vaporizer works.
Why was the overheating study so roundly dismissed by the community, but this one is not?
At least the other study used an actual vaporizer.
Looks to me like someone is trying to sell some temperature controlled devices...
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Yeah, I remember that now.
I dont know how to validate that in an atty though. When I look at my measurements below, they dont look that instantaneous. The scan rate was 1 sec in these measurements.
The question is, are you measuring the "vapor" as it's suspended above the metal, or are you measuring the metal's temp.
The difference might seem so tiny as many would think that the liquid is touching the metal, but it actually isn't one the vaporizing temp. is reached, so at that point, the difference is actually quite large.
The Leidenfrost effect really is a HUGE factor.
Another factor to consider is Heat flux.
For anyone that believes that the liquid would keep getting hotter (which it is NOT), this explains it.
Critical heat flux - Wikipedia
If simply increasing the temp. would increase the vapor's temp. We'd hit a flash point and it would combust.. something that I've yet to ever see anyone manage to do no many how much wattage they have at their disposal. So we go back to the Leidenfrost effect that explains the other half of the why.
For anyone that believes that the liquid would keep getting hotter (which it is NOT), this explains it.
Critical heat flux - Wikipedia
If simply increasing the temp. would increase the vapor's temp. We'd hit a flash point and it would combust.. something that I've yet to ever see anyone manage to do no many how much wattage they have at their disposal. So we go back to the Leidenfrost effect that explains the other half of the why.
The author of the study was not financed by anyone related to vaping. He is employed by:
The study wasnt intended to mimic any device, it was just a heat degradation test.
What the reactor shows is that if you heat VG up to XX temp, then you get YY nasties.
The question we are debating here, is if our attys ever see those temps.
I cast metal as a hobby.
When I pour an ingot of, say, aluminum, I sometimes pour water on it to cool it down faster.
This doesn't really work until it has cooled down some already, because the water never comes into contact with the metal when it is that hot.
It just rolls away over the top of the metal because of the steam jacket that instantly forms.
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The boiling point of VG is 554f, so the liquid "can" get that hot, I measured it on my stove with a submersed probe.
The coils may reach those temperatures*, but there's no way the liquid does.
See my other post above - when I pour water on 1,240 degree molten aluminum, does the water ever reach 1,240 degrees?
This is the Leidenfrost effect in action, As Imfallen_Angel pointed out above.
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So if this study just shows that heating liquid releases Formaldehyde etc, how is it any different from the widely-derided NEJM article where they overheated the liquid in a vaporizer?
And more importantly, why isn't everyone also deriding this one?
At least the other one actually used a vaporizer...
*Actually, the coil probably never even approaches those temperatures unless you're dry burning it - it is cooled by the evaporating liquid.
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You can have your cake and eat it to - IE: Flat wire.
Low mass (quick heat up and cool down), large surface area (more vapor)
I use 28 and 30AWG Flatwire NiFe48.
Low mass (quick heat up and cool down), large surface area (more vapor)
I use 28 and 30AWG Flatwire NiFe48.
Read this
Glycerine vapor and acrolein - the issues
We don't boil VG, we hit its flash point which is a LOT lower than the boiling point. Plus, even "pure/Max" VG will have other stuff in it that lowers it greatly.
It's all about the mass vs energy thing.
Again, I'm not sure why this topic is still going on as it's been explained many times, in several ways the why the liquid aren't reaching the "danger" range temperature.
Technically, if someone would manage to do it, they would be on the floor gagging their lungs out, as the by-product of overheating and breaking down VG isn't pleasant at all from what I can see/read (and nope, I'm not trying it for laughs).
Um, I don't think we are reaching the flash point of VG:
Flash point - Wikipedia
The flash point of a volatile material is the lowest temperature at which vapors of the material will ignite, when given an ignition source.
But you're right, this is a non-issue.
There have been plenty of real-world tests performed on real vaporizers that haven't detected any formaldehyde. So, while it is certainly possible to heat PG and VG to a temperature at which they will release formaldehyde, that is not happening inside our vaporizers.
How do we know it is the Leidenfrost effect, at what temp does that occur? Doesnt the surface have to be hotter than the BP of the liquid hitting it for the Leidenfrost effect to come into play.
I understand the aluminum water skittle effect, but that is a much more drastic example. A liquid with a BP of 210f reacting to a 1240f degree surface. Where in an atty we are talking about a liquid with a 554f BP hitting a 500f surface, I doubt it is the Leidenfrost effect when the hot surface is a lower temp than than the BP of the liquid. At least that doesnt match the Leidenfrost theory as I read it:
I am not claiming a "superheat" effect, which is a liquid heated above its boiling point under pressure, but I do believe juice can hit its boiling point on an atty, I have observed juice boiling on my coils.
The boiling point of VG is 554F and (according to Wang) VG gives off nasties starting at 410F.
I have personally measured coils at those temperatures.
As for the NEJM article, it was debunked because it was a wattage device being operated well outside of its norms, vapors would not have vaped at those settings. I dont think operating a modern atty at 450f+ is outside of the norm by any means, I have vaped at those temps often myself.
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