It Very Well could be.
And sometimes one Unique Phenomenon, which only occurs under some Specific Conditions, doesn't lend itself well to the Complex Occurrences that are going on inside an Atomizer.
New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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It Very Well could be.
And sometimes one Unique Phenomenon, which only occurs under some Specific Conditions, doesn't lend itself well to the Complex Occurrences that are going on inside an Atomizer.
There's your data.
If this formaldehyde thing was true, they would have found it when they tested the vapor in this and many other studies.
The only studies that have found formaldehyde are the ones where the vaporizer was deliberately overheated, or this one in which a non-vaporizer device was used.
If this was happening in the real world, it would have cropped up in multiple studies by now.
We can argue all day about the physics of why it doesn't happen, but isn't it just sufficient to know that it doesn't happen?
I'm not disputing that the theory has some merit, but when there is empirical evidence to disprove it, you have to let it go.
I feel confident the liquid in contact with the coil is reaching those temps. I can watch it boil!
As science learns what and how to test, it would not surprise me that new revelations get made. One huge problem is that vape gear technology advances faster than a "proper" study can keep up with it. By the time they complete their study the vape gear they used is obsolete (which makes it easy for us to debunk it).
I think one thing that comes into play for our crowd, is that we are all biased. We all know that vaping saved our butts, and we are sick and tired of the propaganda science that tries to trash vaping. So now, if anyone says anything negative about any aspect of vaping, a lot folks get their fur ruffled, its automatic.
I have seen enough evidence from different places that I feel confident that "something" is going on. I am aware of another study, which hasnt been peered reviewed or published yet, that shows enhanced levels of nasties associated with gunked up coils at med to high temps. I imagine that study will get rebuked strongly as well.
This study, and other studies in the works, point to temperature as being the trigger point for some bad stuff. I am promoting that people pay attention to their temps and try to keep them down. I am not the enemy.......
Well, considering that aside this study that's being debated here (and only here in this thread as far as I can tell), and that all other studies fail to make similar findings of anything "cancer giving goodness", it's fairly safe to go with the facts that:
1) the liquid doesn't break down unless exceptional circumstances, none that normally would or does happen under normal vaping approaches
2) the way that the e-liquid is being "aerosoled" doesn't show any of these "cancer giving goodness" molecules
It is quite safe to conclude that Leidenfrost effect or not, the metal coil might get much hotter than the liquid's boiling point, but yet, these "cancer giving goodness" molecules aren't happening in any detectable way.(aside this single "study" that is not using normal vaping approaches). So as you asked and I'd say the same... then why if the metal can reach insanely high temperatures, doesn't the liquid break down... and that's why I believe that the Leidenfrost Effectis part of that. I never stated that it's the only possiblity, and might be a part of it in combination of other items mentioned, but in scientific terms, it does have validity.
For the numbers thing, to be honest, they wouldn't be easily obtained, as I stated, so many fluctuating factors would impact any that anyone could give you. It would be interesting to see a pattern should there be one though, I simply don't have the resources.
Heheh, already answered that in my last post, and referenced it in another thread this morning.
YES, such a study exists. They are scared to to death to release it until they can be sure it is absolutely bullet proof. They dont want to be perceived as anti-vaping, but they fear if they tell what they found, they will be.
meh.. considering that the list of cancer giving goodness things (and heart disease, and 10,000 other things) change every few months, we could end up with a study stating that the free radicals that was believed to give cancer is now believed to be a cure for it....
And there's "absolutely bullet-proof" and there's "let's make sure that we don't look bad when it's proven otherwise" and there's "let's make sure that we "prove" it in a way that "proves" we're right and hard to prove that it's not correct".
Anyone could prove that the moon is made of cheese should they apply themselves hard enough.
Yes, that has a way of becoming prevalent, there can persist the common penchant for wanting to close inquiry after one has their opinion formed and mind made up ;-)
To an extent... vaping for me is a hobby that I could drop, but I do it to help my wife and daughter that can't quit smoking without it.
And if anything, I wouldn't want to put them in harm's way, so if something concrete instead of all this guess work would show up, I'd take it as factual and act accordingly.
I choose to to "try" to be objective. I personally dont think we know much about vaping as a science at all yet. There are soooo many variables, and the gear (and usage habits) changes so rapidly, and so little "proper" study has been done on it, or on inhaling most of the stuff in our juice.
We all know that it is head and shoulders safer than stinkies, little doubt there, my body tells me so. But we vapers (as a group) tend to push the limits on our gear, and in the way we use it. Look at some of the DL sub-ohm octa coil stuff going on and it wouldnt shock me a bit if we are in for some surprises.
We all know that it is head and shoulders safer than stinkies, little doubt there, my body tells me so. But we vapers (as a group) tend to push the limits on our gear, and in the way we use it. Look at some of the DL sub-ohm octa coil stuff going on and it wouldnt shock me a bit if we are in for some surprises.
Hehehe, that kind of proves the bias point right there. You are painting it in a negative light before even seeing the data or methods.
Not at all... I'm open to something that can prove something and not something "we're afraid to show it because it might be debunked".
If anything you seem intent on finding something negative. Maybe you'll get lucky, who knows.
But after over 10 years and everything including the kitchen sink thrown at it to vilify it, I'd expect something in the range of radiation from microwaves are bad if you hug it every time you use it.
This is kinda the Difference though between Science/Physics and Conjecture.
And this is why I wanted to point out that the Leidenfrost Effect can Only occur when the Coil Wire Temp is (Significantly) Greater than the Boiling Point of e-Liquid.
Because people tend to Latch Onto things. And like to put Boxes around things as the Sole Examination of why something Does or Doesn't Occur.
The Leidenfrost Effect may be occurring under certain circumstances when the Wire Temperature is Very Hot. Or when the Boiling Point of the e-Liquid is Low. Or Both.
But without some Numbers to Quantify it, it is just a Conjecture. A Conjecture which possible doesn't occur due to the e-Liquid not being in a Pure Liquid Form.
Just to add, that even if someone does find something, one still has to consider what the alternatives are when it comes to either vaping or smoking... which will be the lesser of two "evils".
Oh absolutely... I completely agree...
It's been about trying to figure out things here, not stomp feets.
I just believe that it's a valid subject and can explain a lot of what we're seeing, but if someone has a valid alternative, I'm more than happy to hear it.
Nope, I have invested huge chunks of my life into promoting vaping. I just happen to believe there is something to the temp/nasty relationship. And since the question of what our "current" gear is really doing always comes up (since its never studied that way, unfortunately), I am trying to do what I can to answer the questions I can.
And on that note I am going to go unpack the batch of new thermocouples that just arrived.
For myself vaping is not a hobby, anymore than smoking cigarettes were, nor would I hope it ever becomes one for that matter. For me it's a transition at best, a means to an end and something I also expect to also lay aside at some time. In the interval, I remain curious and open to inquiry.
I wish you all the best with helping intercede with your family.
Very interesting Mike. I've always thought that HF would have that effect but I have not experimented with it. It does though seem, to me at least, that you may have proved my theory
. It all depends if the coil temperature difference is due to the mass difference or the surface area difference. Then again, reading your post again makes me think we may both be on the same page, just saying it differently.- Status
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