New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[jamesbeat]

Heheh, already answered that in my last post, and referenced it in another thread this morning.

YES, such a study exists. They are scared to to death to release it until they can be sure it is absolutely bullet proof. They dont want to be perceived as anti-vaping, but they fear if they tell what they found, they will be.

Then we should wait until the results of the study are released before making up our minds.

Of course, it is only one study among many, and all the others (apart from the gross overheating one) have found no formaldehyde.

Studies that were often performed by people who had set out to discredit vaping, I might add.

So far, the overwhelming evidence is that, for whatever reason, there is no formaldehyde in vapor when the products are used in a conventional manner.

 

[mikepetro]

@Burnie
Ok, so the last two rounds of tests were done on the larger DNA mod with a Merlin atty. This next round I will attempt to measure this Kangetech Nano.

New thermocouples, from left to right: a sewing needle, 36awg glass braid, 36awg Kapton, 40awg Kapton. A small gauge paperclip on top

Factory 1.5ohm nichrome cartridge. Looks like about 10 wraps of 30AWG in there

 

[mikepetro]

I think its going to work!!!!

 

[jamesbeat]

This is great, and I genuinely admire your dedication and thoroughness, but unless you have the equipment to detect formaldehyde etc, what's the point?

All that study shows is that they were able to produce formadehyde with their equipment.

You can't say that the same thing is going to happen in a vaporizer based solely on reaching a given temperature at the coil.

 

[Mowgli]

Found it.
BBC Two - Horizon, 2016, E-Cigarettes: Miracle or Menace?

It says the video's not currently available at that page...
...but Google-Fu & YouTube-Fu win again



I love me some BBC & Reuters - they're the least biased news sources

 

[mikepetro]

This is great, and I genuinely admire your dedication and thoroughness, but unless you have the equipment to detect formaldehyde etc, what's the point?

All that study shows is that they were able to produce formadehyde with their equipment.

You can't say that the same thing is going to happen in a vaporizer based solely on reaching a given temperature at the coil.

Right now, for Burnie and others, I am trying to answer the question of what temps does a tootle-ish atty reach in VW mode.

I cant measure nasties, but, if we know what wattage to stay under to keep this "factory" coil from getting above 410f then even if we assume the worst case scenerio according to Wang, we should be ok.

I am confident in my DNA mods, I know how to keep the temp where I want it. A question that has come up repeatedly in this thread has been from the folks who are running VW mods. How do they know their temp? While this is only good for the K-Nano with a factory coil, it "should" give us a ballpark, and a true idea of what temps this type of atty is seeing.

ETA: One of the things that debunked some of the CE4 testing was they were running the attys beyond the norm to the point where a real user would have tasted the burn and turned it down. I am going to vape this, and see what temps I hit, at what wattage, before the vape gets uncomfortable.

 

[Burnie]

Right now, for Burnie and others, I am trying to answer the question of what temps does a tootle-ish atty reach in VW mode.

And Again, Thank You for your efforts.

 

[jamesbeat]

Right now, for Burnie and others, I am trying to answer the question of what temps does a tootle-ish atty reach in VW mode.

I cant measure nasties, but, if we know what wattage to stay under to keep this "factory" coil from getting above 410f then even if we assume the worst case scenerio according to Wang, we should be ok.

I am confident in my DNA mods, I know how to keep the temp where I want it. A question that has come up repeatedly in this thread has been from the folks who are running VW mods. How do they know their temp? While this is only good for the K-Nano with a factory coil, it "should" give us a ballpark, and a true idea of what temps this type of atty is seeing.

ETA: One of the things that debunked some of the CE4 testing was they were running the attys beyond the norm to the point where a real user would have tasted the burn and turned it down. I am going to vape this, and see what temps I hit, at what wattage, before the vape gets uncomfortable.

Well in that case I applaud your efforts.
I read your blog, and you have clearly put a good deal of time and effort into this.

If it turns out that Wang's results reflect what goes on inside a vaporizer, then your experiments will be very valuable.

I will say though that I think it is extremely unlikely that all of the current data is wrong and Wang is right.
I don't doubt that he produced the chemicals, but I don't think his apparatus reflects what happens inside a vaporizer.

 

[kiba]

@Burnie
Ok, so the last two rounds of tests were done on the larger DNA mod with a Merlin atty. This next round I will attempt to measure this Kangetech Nano.

New thermocouples, from left to right: a sewing needle, 36awg glass braid, 36awg Kapton, 40awg Kapton. A small gauge paperclip on top

Factory 1.5ohm nichrome cartridge. Looks like about 10 wraps of 30AWG in there
View attachment 656549

Where did you get the Evolv enclosure with round buttons?

 

[mikepetro]

Where did you get the Evolv enclosure with round buttons?

I had them made at a local machine shop:

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...v-reference-mod-plus-kit-dna200-co-op.705110/

 

[ZCAR1]

I've been following this thread since its start. Haven't been contributing, but have been reading daily. As a low watt (hopefully also low temp) vaper (mostly Nautilus), I am also very interested in Mike's latest experiment.

I think this series of experiments, using actual common vaping equipment, could be written up and submitted to an appropriate journal. Yeah, it's a hassle, but in IMHO it's worthy.

 

[Rossum]

The "instant dry hit pushing away liquid" theory is interesting. Do you have any references for that phenomena?

Early on, I had a Pro Tank 2 with a factory coil on a Vaporshark DNA20. 7.5 watts was about as high as it would run happily. One day I manged to "pocket dial" it all the way up to 20 watts without realizing it. When I took a hit, it was instant utter nastiness.

 

[Rossum]

The question we are debating here, is if our attys ever see those temps.

You've clearly proven that the coils can. But of course the rest of the atty doesn't, which is why I think our atties are materially different than the "reactor" used by Wang.

Since our liquid is in contact with our coils, we know that at least some of it can reach a temperature in the same ballpark as the coil. What we don't know yet is much of it gets that hot or how long any of it stays that hot before it flies off as an aerosol. It certainly doesn't stay at that temperature continuously or indefinitely, which is what I suspect was going on in Wang's reactor.

I've made this analogy before: You can pass your finger through a candle flame and it doesn't hurt at all provided you don't keep it there for any length of time.

 

[puffon]

 

[mikepetro]

You've clearly proven that the coils can. But of course the rest of the atty doesn't, which is why I think our atties are materially different than the "reactor" used by Wang.

Since our liquid is in contact with our coils, we know that at least some of it can reach a temperature in the same ballpark as the coil. What we don't know yet is much of it gets that hot or how long any of it stays that hot before it flies off as an aerosol. It certainly doesn't stay at that temperature continuously or indefinitely, which is what I suspect was going on in Wang's reactor.

I've made this analogy before: You can pass your finger through a candle flame and it doesn't hurt at all provided you don't keep it there for any length of time.

This is the from the center core of a 3mm OD wick. On the first hit it only got a little more than half as hot as the juice contacting the coil, and it did appear to cool fairly rapidly. Chain vaping increased the wick core temp, approaching coil temp.

 

[Rossum]

BTW, Mike... You've got me curious how hot my coils get, in my atties, with my juice, the way I vape, on my mech squonkers.

Since the atties in question are utterly simple RDAs, it seems like it would be no problem to get some of that tiny thermocouple wiring into one of the air holes....

 

[mikepetro]

BTW, Mike... You've got me curious how hot my coils get, in my atties, with my juice, the way I vape, on my mech squonkers.

Since the atties in question are utterly simple RDAs, it seems like it would be no problem to get some of that tiny thermocouple wiring into one of the air holes....

Yep, drippers and squonkers should be a heck of a lot easier than these tanks.

And I would "assume" that in a squonking scenario, your are cooling you wick core temp more efficiently with every squonk.

 

[Rossum]

This is the from the center core of a 3mm OD wick. On the first hit it only got a little more than half as hot as the juice contacting the coil, and it did appear to cool fairly rapidly. Chain vaping increased the wick core temp, approaching coil temp.

View attachment 656595

I think you've posted that before. How come your graph doesn't have an X-axis scale so we can see how long you held the fire button and how long the pauses are?

 

[mikepetro]

I think you've posted that before. How come your graph doesn't have an X-axis scale so we can see how long you held the fire button and how long the pauses are?

Cheap (free) data acquisition software. Each datapoint is one second apart. The dashed line divisions are 1 minute.

ETA, my standard hits are ~3 sec.

 

[Rossum]

OK, so looking at that image full size:
(hopefully you won't mind that I stole it and cropped it)

It looks like about
10-11 seconds on
~15 seconds off
11 or 12 seconds on,
~23 seconds off
~17 seconds on.

The last one is like:

4-5 seconds is a long hit for me.