New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

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mikepetro

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I'd be curious as the effect on temps at various air flows (tight draw vs wide open).
Its documented in my blog post as I did that in the first round of tests, see the 2nd screen cap under "Wattage Mode". The summary though is that "all else being equal" if you throttle airflow back in VW mode it will increase temp. Actually, I started with a minimal MTL airflow setting, then opened the aiflow all the way and the temp when down at the same wattage.
 

Mazinny

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Specifications:
  • Kangertech Nano atomizer
  • Factory 1.5ohm nichrome coil
  • 36awg thermocouple threaded through AFC hole, resting directly on coil
  • Recorded by NIST traceable Solo Temperature Controller
  • Testing done with AFC about 1/3 for MTL vaping
  • Targeted 2-3 second puffs, but they were somewhat varied (kinda hard to do repeatably), each puff length is documented though
View attachment 656911

View attachment 656913



10w, ~2 sec puffs, allowed 2 minute cool down between puffs
View attachment 656915


11w, ~2 sec puffs, allowed 2 minute cool down between puffs
View attachment 656917



12w, ~3.3 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then ~ 2sec puff then 1 minute cooldown then 3.6sec puff
View attachment 656919



13w, ~3.6 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then chained vaped a couple hits
View attachment 656921



14w, ~5.1 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then 3.1 sec puff then chained vaped a couple hits
View attachment 656923


15w, ~3.5 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then 4.2 sec puff then chained vaped a couple hits

View attachment 656925


16w, ~3.1 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then 4.3 sec puff then chained vaped a couple hits
View attachment 656927
Good work ! Thank you for doing this.

Any idea what gauge wire that 1.5 ohm coil is, how many wraps, and the inner diameter ?
 
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Rossum

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Specifications:
  • Kangertech Nano atomizer
  • Factory 1.5ohm nichrome coil
  • 36awg thermocouple threaded through AFC hole, resting directly on coil
  • Recorded by NIST traceable Solo Temperature Controller
  • Testing done with AFC about 1/3 for MTL vaping
  • Targeted 2-3 second puffs, but they were somewhat varied (kinda hard to do repeatably), each puff length is documented though
View attachment 656911

View attachment 656913



10w, ~2 sec puffs, allowed 2 minute cool down between puffs
View attachment 656915


11w, ~2 sec puffs, allowed 2 minute cool down between puffs
View attachment 656917



12w, ~3.3 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then ~ 2sec puff then 1 minute cooldown then 3.6sec puff
View attachment 656919



13w, ~3.6 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then chained vaped a couple hits
View attachment 656921



14w, ~5.1 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then 3.1 sec puff then chained vaped a couple hits
View attachment 656923


15w, ~3.5 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then 4.2 sec puff then chained vaped a couple hits

View attachment 656925


16w, ~3.1 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then 4.3 sec puff then chained vaped a couple hits
View attachment 656927
Any comments on the vape? At what wattage did it become decent with this setup?
 
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Mowgli

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OK, any special requests, I got another sensor rigged up,

ETA: K-nano w/ 1.5 ohm factory coil, flexible on juice, tank is empty right now.
I know you have some V2 Aromamizers...Do you have any 24ga SS430?

I'm running dual 3.5mm 24ga SS430 with 6/5 wraps in my Aromamizers with Sally's rayon.
The Boxer it's running on reads .143Ω when I lock resistance at room temp (68-69F).
The vape is thick & flavorful enough for me @ 410F with 45j on my sx350j Boxer mods.
87% VG, 10% PG-based flavoring, 3% saline, 3mg/ml (VG) nicotine
I'd guess 40W-45W would equal the vape.

I've been using 50W when I hike. I use VW when I hike because temp varies.
I'd be interested in knowing what the coil temp is at 40W-50W in my setup.

If you have 24g SS430 and you're taking requests...

I quit using twisted and run 24ga SS430 in all my tanks now.
I could send you some for testing if you like. PM if so.
I also have some UNK 28g & CW 27g that I'll probably never use.
Let me know if it'd help.
 
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mikepetro

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I know you have some V2 Aromamizers...Do you have any 24ga SS430?

I'm running dual 3.5mm 24ga SS430 with 6/5 wraps in my Aromamizers with Sally's rayon.
The Boxer it's running on reads .143Ω when I lock resistance at room temp (68-69F).
The vape is thick & flavorful enough for me @ 410F with 45j on my sx350j Boxer mods.
87% VG, 10% PG-based flavoring, 3% saline, 3mg/ml (VG) nicotine
I'd guess 40W-45W would equal the vape.

I've been using 50W when I hike. I use VW when I hike because temp varies.
I'd be interested in knowing what the coil temp is at 40W-50W in my setup.

If you have 24g SS430 and you're taking requests...

I quit using twisted and run 24ga SS430 in all my tanks now.
I could send you some for testing if you like. PM if so.
I also have some UNK 28g & CW 27g that I'll probably never use.
Let me know if it'd help.
Yep, I have that wire. I have no clue how to get a thermocouple in an Aromamizer though. I looked at it before and came up stumped, thats why I ordered the Merlins, specifically for the way the airholes made it easy to stick a wire in there.

I will look at the Mizer again tomorrow, I am done fooling with that stuff tonight. I burned up 4 thermouples and 4 SOCC coils today, I'm done.....
 

h00ligan

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Yes, I am a proponent for temp control. However, if you look at what I have done is this thread, I have spent a lot of time and money doing technically sound testing for those who dont have Temp Control, and presented ways for them to keep their temps down. Maybe I should just stick my head in the sand and say to hell with everybody.

I am using 450 as what I "personally" would consider a reasonable limit, and that is pushing it past the point where VG starts to degrade into nasties.

The study actually started to detect nasties at 410f, and that is not an arbitrary number, that was a repeatable measurement by scientific grade instrumentation, but the ROR didnt escalate dramatically until 450f. The 410f number is science. Heat VG to 410 and it starts to degrade and formaldehyde is a by-product, or at least that what Wang said. I dont care whether it was in a reactor, a tin cup, or a pot on the stove, heat vg to 410f and it gives off nasties.

Previous to this study it was a known and accepted fact that Glycerol decomposes into acrolein at ~535, now I agree that you can start tasting it at about 505F so vapors are not likely getting that high.

But vapors are going above 410f.....

So you shot the coil temp while in mid vape ?
How hard were you breathing in?
What was the airflow in cfm of your breath?
What was the impact on the coil temp of variations in cfm?
When you gauge the coil temp at 500f what wire and wick were you using?
Did you have the coil wicked and wet when this happened?
What device were you using and what instruments were used for the tests?
Were they calibrated before and after to ensure accuracy?
With your airflow measurement what instrument did you use?
When you were using temp control you clearly saw the temperature spike. Do you have a graph of the spikes so we can see ?
Where's all the documentation and steps for reproduction?
Were you dripping or using a tank?
What viscosity of juice did you use?
How long was the device fired for?
How many times did Yu repeat this test?
How many devices did you use in testing?
How many coils did you use in testing?
What different juice and wicks did you use in testing?

These are the beginning questions to answer. Then we can take it from there.

If we are discussing the linked testing and conclusions it IS NOT VALID. it doesn't replicate vaping. In any way. Is drawing any conclusions is invalid. If you're talking Bantu your tests. Let's get all these questions answered and take it from there.
 

Rossum

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So you shot the coil temp while in mid vape ?
How hard were you breathing in?
What was the airflow in cfm of your breath?
What was the impact on the coil temp of variations in cfm?
When you gauge the coil temp at 500f what wire and wick were you using?
Did you have the coil wicked and wet when this happened?
What device were you using and what instruments were used for the tests?
Were they calibrated before and after to ensure accuracy?
With your airflow measurement what instrument did you use?
When you were using temp control you clearly saw the temperature spike. Do you have a graph of the spikes so we can see ?
Where's all the documentation and steps for reproduction?
Were you dripping or using a tank?
What viscosity of juice did you use?
How long was the device fired for?
How many times did Yu repeat this test?
How many devices did you use in testing?
How many coils did you use in testing?
What different juice and wicks did you use in testing?

These are the beginning questions to answer. Then we can take it from there.
Detailed answers to most of these questions are already in this thread!
 

h00ligan

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Most of the answers to these questions are in this thread!
Good it should be easy to centralize them in one place. If he's don't that much research he should have this written up anyway I'm sure. If there's. A link or pos number I'm happy to go there. But I don't have time to read 120 pages to find flawed scientific method and argue.

Even if one assumed that 450 was the magic number one would then face the task of finding an inaccurate tc device that equated to that.
 

mikepetro

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Just going to put this here:

Air Sampling confirms secondhand vapor is harmless | Vaping Post

Read carefully what is said about Formaldehyde.

Now perhaps we can stop wasting time on this and also put an end to the scaremongering.
I appreciate the scaremongering comment, that was helpful.

However, I fail to see where a 2nd hand vapor study confirms anything more than there wasnt enough in the air for them measure. They didnt measure the vapor coming off of a 500f atty. The air in that room and the vapor out of the business end of an atty straight into your lungs are 2 totally different things. As Rossum said earlier, concentrations matter.
 

h00ligan

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I appreciate the scaremongering comment, that was helpful.

However, I fail to see where a 2nd hand vapor study confirms anything more than there wasnt enough in the air for them measure. They didnt measure the vapor coming off of a 500f atty. The air in that room and the vapor out of the business end of an atty straight into your lungs are 2 totally different things. As Rossum said earlier, concentrations matter.

Just like simulated vaping and vaping are different!
 

mikepetro

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Good it should be easy to centralize them in one place. If he's don't that much research he should have this written up anyway I'm sure. If there's. A link or pos number I'm happy to go there. But I don't have time to read 120 pages to find flawed scientific method and argue.

Even if one assumed that 450 was the magic number one would then face the task of finding an inaccurate tc device that equated to that.
If you dont have the time to read the blog post that I have linked several times, then I dont have the time to repeat it all again just for you. This has turned into an attack against me, and my work. What did I ever do to you?
 
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