New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

I didn't say it wasn't factual, although that is debatable.
Following it up with a series of temperature measurements is implying that the results of this experiment also apply to vaporizers.

The reason that the thread title isn't factual (and is also scaremongering) is the 'even in tootlepuffers' part.

Tootlepuffers use vaporizers.
These experiments were performed on some contraption that the experimentors call a 'reactor' which appears to bear no resemblance to a vaporizer.

The temperature tests were not planned, but occurred as the result of the flow of this thread. I got tired of some of the misconceptions I saw in the thread and decided to provide proof to dispel them. Also, people were asking "what temp does my VW device get to" and I provided some insight.

"At high temperatures", and yes, I proved that even tootle puffers can reach these temps, but other studies presented at that same conference (linked in the opening post) also specifically stated it. For example, our own Dr Kurt showed the CE4 slide and clearly stated nasties were found in them at any power level. Well guess what, there is a woman IN THIS VERY THREAD who was still using those very devices.

So again, it was factual.

 

[mikepetro]

Conjecture: Wang's 'reactor' does the same thing as a vaporizer.
I never stated this

Conjecture: e liquid reaches the same temperature as the coil that is heating it.
I never stated this, I said some of the eliquid does, up to the boiling points of its components, which for VG happens to be 554f.

Conjecture: if he measured it there, it seems perfectly plausible that it can exist anywhere that vg is heated to those temperatures.
Yes, that is conjecture.

 

[smokinGAVIN]

Pardon my ignorance. What does rattlesnake effect mean?

 

[awsum140]

The rattlesnake effect is a low level noise that can be created by the square wave used by some chipsets to regulate power. Most, but not all, modern mods use a straight DC signal rather than a pulse modulated signal on the output to make the vape "smoother" which totally eliminates the rattlesnake effect.

 

[Verb]

...
It seems to me that whether you use an ecig, a torch, a chamber, or a campfire, if VG gives off nasties at 450f then I cant understand why it wouldnt on a 450f SS316 coil. Now, quantities measured in their fog machine vs an ecig are possibly different, but their presence at some level seems logical.

If I heat water in a reactor and it gives off steam at 100C, why wouldnt I expect steam in a tea kettle or shot glass at 100c, the quantity of steam might be different, but the steam is still there at 100C..

Time is the reason. The chemical reaction producing nasties at say 450F has a reaction rate. This was not presented as being measured in the Wang study. The Wang study heated the entire mass of liquid to that temperature with a very low air flow rate into the reactor. The temperature was reached and held. Regardless of how slow the reaction takes place at a give temperature, if it out paces the incoming clean air, the concentration in the chamber will rise. A researcher could alter the incoming airflow to change the concentration at the detector to produce a wide range of results.

 

[smokinGAVIN]

The rattlesnake effect is a low level noise that can be created by the square wave used by some chipsets to regulate power. Most, but not all, modern mods use a straight DC signal rather than a pulse modulated signal on the output to make the vape "smoother" which totally eliminates the rattlesnake effect.

Thanks

 

[Bigdaddi]

The community has given to me, I try to give back where I can.
Sometimes I wonder though....

Dont wonder man just keep doing what you're doing. I'm telling you, I'm sure that the number of people benefiting from your posts definitely outnumber the people challenging them.

Yes it is hectic and sometimes time consuming to find the posts with valuable findings and keep track, but I imagine it took the same effort and time if not more to post those in the first place. You're definitely paying your share already, and it's up to us whether or not to pay our share by tracing those answers!

Note to self and to all, I think we all agree that this thread is still alive because we still learn from it. This post is definitely not to cause panic. We still end up vaping, right? I mean I don't think I saw a post from anyone who confessed that they quit vaping because of the concerning findings over here. Some scary? Yes. Do you need to panic? No. Want it the KISS way (Keep It Simple and Smart (or Sutpid)? Switch to TC mode and don't do high temp. There are many adjustments that can be easily made to your build that would guarantee you the same quality vape without throwing yourself in harm's way. It's really simple.

I still highly encourage the challenging spirit, as with that spirit more smart questions arise hence the inner energy for any helpful folk to make that effort in testing and sharing feedback. If modern science and related officials don't stand up for us to pay their share for the sake of our health, the people, the most valuable asset that makes all of this happen, then it's you guys and your priceless efforts in going through all these details and spending that much time from your life in doing so that science will look back at and be thankful for. Check the history to confirm when you feel a bit tired from reading threads. Here's a keyword "Tesla". This is just one example. Trust me, there are many many more.

No offense folks! Just reminding myself and everyone else that all of this here is really for the greater good of all of us. You may never know or even realize what great good you're doing mankind.

You rock @mikepetro! Keep doing what you're doing. Don't look back and just keep going [emoji1360]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[440BB]

Specifications:

• Kangertech Nano atomizer
• Factory 1.5ohm nichrome coil
• 36awg thermocouple threaded through AFC hole, resting directly on coil
  
• Recorded by NIST traceable Solo Temperature Controller
  
• Testing done with AFC about 1/3 for MTL vaping
• Targeted 2-3 second puffs, but they were somewhat varied (kinda hard to do repeatably), each puff length is documented though

View attachment 656911

View attachment 656913



10w, ~2 sec puffs, allowed 2 minute cool down between puffs
View attachment 656915


11w, ~2 sec puffs, allowed 2 minute cool down between puffs
View attachment 656917



12w, ~3.3 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then ~ 2sec puff then 1 minute cooldown then 3.6sec puff
View attachment 656919



13w, ~3.6 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then chained vaped a couple hits
View attachment 656921



14w, ~5.1 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then 3.1 sec puff then chained vaped a couple hits
View attachment 656923


15w, ~3.5 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then 4.2 sec puff then chained vaped a couple hits

View attachment 656925


16w, ~3.1 sec puff, allowed 2 minute cool down then 4.3 sec puff then chained vaped a couple hits
View attachment 656927

I spent some time measuring my puff duration and I average about three seconds, with six to eight watts. Based on the above, if I don't chain vape, with my mix I expect I'm staying under 400F. I realize each vaping situation is somewhat unique, but this is reassuring!

I now own some TC equipment and look forward to comparing the quality of vape I can achieve with somewhat higher mass coils set to 400F max. Always more to learn!

 

[classwife]

There is an accusatory tone (attacking) in here now that DOES NOT BELONG here.
If you want to discuss, then discuss. If you don't, go on to another thread.

This has been some great info that you can take and use for yourself - or not.
I'll never pass up healthy discussion - it's how we learn.
There are a few pieces of information in this thread that I have taken and applied to my own vaping
habits - any tidbit that can make vaping even more safe FOR ME is valuable information.
I have read every post in this thread and greatly appreciate the time and efforts that are being graciously given here.


Our personal testing and modding is how we as vapers got to where
we are today.

EVERY BIT OF IT.


note:
The 'Nastys' at certain temps is not a new issue. If you have done any research you know this.
These tests tho show us that oopsie, some of us unsuspectingly just might be hitting or getting close to those temps and give us the opportunity to adjust (if we want) THIS IS HOW WE LEARN !
Someone already linked Roly's Library post from 2013 from when he was gathering up info and giving it a home (the info is older than that):
Glycerine vapor and acrolein - the issues
This thread gives us an expansion of that.



Keep the attacks out of the conversation





What's the matter with those dang vapers...they keep improving their products so they work better and now they are trying to make them even safer...



edit : Dang ! That took me almost an hour

 

[440BB]

Our personal testing and modding is how we as vapers got to where we are today.

Absolute truth!!!

 

[Bigdaddi]

There is an accusatory tone (attacking) in here now that DOES NOT BELONG here.
If you want to discuss, then discuss. If you don't, go on to another thread.

This has been some great info that you can take and use for yourself - or not.
I'll never pass up healthy discussion - it's how we learn.
There are a few pieces of information in this thread that I have taken and applied to my own vaping
habits - any tidbit that can make vaping even more safe FOR ME is valuable information.
I have read every post in this thread and greatly appreciate the time and efforts that are being graciously given here.


Our personal testing and modding is how we as vapers got to where
we are today.

EVERY BIT OF IT.


note:
The 'Nastys' at certain temps is not a new issue. If you have done any research you know this.
These tests tho show us that oopsie, some of us unsuspectingly just might be hitting or getting close to those temps and give us the opportunity to adjust (if we want) THIS IS HOW WE LEARN !
Someone already linked Roly's Library post from 2013 from when he was gathering up info and giving it a home (the info is older than that):
Glycerine vapor and acrolein - the issues
This thread gives us an expansion of that.



Keep the attacks out of the conversation





What's the matter with those dang vapers...they keep improving their products so they work better and now they are trying to make them even safer...



edit : Dang ! That took me almost an hour

Well said, @classwife. Thank you very much for spending that hour to deliver that message. It is an important message, and I do appreciate that someone decided to spend some of their time to put it that way (which is exactly the right way) and deliver it to all of us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jamesbeat]

There is an accusatory tone (attacking) in here now that DOES NOT BELONG here.
If you want to discuss, then discuss. If you don't, go on to another thread.

This has been some great info that you can take and use for yourself - or not.
I'll never pass up healthy discussion - it's how we learn.
There are a few pieces of information in this thread that I have taken and applied to my own vaping
habits - any tidbit that can make vaping even more safe FOR ME is valuable information.
I have read every post in this thread and greatly appreciate the time and efforts that are being graciously given here.


Our personal testing and modding is how we as vapers got to where
we are today.

EVERY BIT OF IT.


note:
The 'Nastys' at certain temps is not a new issue. If you have done any research you know this.
These tests tho show us that oopsie, some of us unsuspectingly just might be hitting or getting close to those temps and give us the opportunity to adjust (if we want) THIS IS HOW WE LEARN !
Someone already linked Roly's Library post from 2013 from when he was gathering up info and giving it a home (the info is older than that):
Glycerine vapor and acrolein - the issues
This thread gives us an expansion of that.



Keep the attacks out of the conversation





What's the matter with those dang vapers...they keep improving their products so they work better and now they are trying to make them even safer...



edit : Dang ! That took me almost an hour

Ok, this is real science, and discussion is welcomed as long as we don't disagree with it.

Disagreement and (well deserved) harsh criticism is an 'attack'.

Got it.

 

[mikepetro]

Time is the reason. The chemical reaction producing nasties at say 450F has a reaction rate. This was not presented as being measured in the Wang study. The Wang study heated the entire mass of liquid to that temperature with a very low air flow rate into the reactor. The temperature was reached and held. Regardless of how slow the reaction takes place at a give temperature, if it out paces the incoming clean air, the concentration in the chamber will rise. A researcher could alter the incoming airflow to change the concentration at the detector to produce a wide range of results.

Interesting point.

Sounds to me that they use up a hits worth of liquid in 2.9s. That doesnt seem all that different than what I did yesterday in my tests. What they dont say is how long it took their chamber to heat up before they started the puff.

"To vaporize e-liquid, a precisely weighed 5–10 mg of e-liquid was loaded at the center of a 0.3-g piece of glass wool"

"One end of the tube reactor was connected to compressed air with a constant flow rate of 200 mL/min regulated by a mass flow controller (Smart-Track Digital Mass Flow Meter, Sierra Instruments, Inc., USA). At this flow rate, the transition time of e-liquid with air in the reactor was 2.9 s in order to mimic a ~3-s puff duration"
For comparison, a human breath is about 500ml, so that is pretty slow.

I wonder how they define "transition time".

Anyway, I have already said that "quantities they measured were likely higher than what we would get, as not all of our liquid is exposed to the upper limit temperature, some vaporizes off the wick without contacting the coil.

 

[mikepetro]

Ok, this is real science, and discussion is welcomed as long as we don't disagree with it.

Disagreement and (well deserved) harsh criticism is an 'attack'.

Got it.

Disagreement is cool, but when the tone degrades into name calling and personal attacks, then it is no longer civil discussion.

 

[Burnie]

@mikepetro
Thank You VERY MUCH for going through the effort to answer my question about the Tootle Puffer gear temperatures. There are more people than most think of us low power vapors out here. I generally vape at less than 6 watts (currently a 2.4Ω 33 gauge coil at 3.3 volts), and your tests let me know my 3 to 4 second puffs are WAY under the 410 degree breakdown point. I do have a couple of mods I crank up to a whopping 10 watts but they are still under that magic temperature number. Thanks Again for all your efforts. You are a credit to ECF and to the vape community.

 

[jamesbeat]

Disagreement is cool, but when the tone degrades into name calling and personal attacks, then it is no longer civil discussion.

Ok, well the closest I came to doing anything like that was my accusation of scaremongering.
The title of the thread is enough to warrant that in my opinion.
I know it certainly alarmed me when I first saw it.

 

[mikepetro]

Dont wonder man just keep doing what you're doing. I'm telling you, I'm sure that the number of people benefiting from your posts definitely outnumber the people challenging them.

Yes it is hectic and sometimes time consuming to find the posts with valuable findings and keep track,
..........
..........
You rock @mikepetro! Keep doing what you're doing. Don't look back and just keep going [emoji1360]

Thanks for the encouragement.

To make the Temp Testing easier to find, and to prevent it from getting lost in the ebb and flow of this thread, I coagulated it all into a few blog post linked below.

Real Life temp measurements inside a 2016 era atty | E-Cigarette Forum
Juice Boiling Point and Vaping Temperatures | E-Cigarette Forum
Actual temperature inside VW Tootle Puffer rig. | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[kiba]

Some people will always view information they don't like as a personal attack. Can't be helped, that's an issue for a psychologist to sort out. Personally I'm glad Mike's putting this info out there even though I don't have time to sort through the whole thread, bc nobody else was doing it.

Theres no definitive answers here, there probably never will be, too many factors involved in the way two different people vape even if you consider the same setup. What I took from it was that I would like to vape below the 410F mark where these chemicals start to be produced. That doesn't mean anything however and you are free to take from it what you will.

 

[kiba]

Which, I'd like to point out, <410F given the right heat flux, provides a perfectly satisfying vape on both the cloudzbro setup on the left and the tootlepuffer setup on the right...

 

[mikepetro]

Yes, obtaining a damn good vape, below the temperatures being questioned, is not a big deal.

If you dont care, dont bother, but some of us do care. I firmly believe that vaping has extended my life expectancy, and I "know" beyond doubt that it has improved the quality of my life within mere weeks of starting.

The gear that was available when I started was not as safe as it is today. That has been proven even by our own vaping community. I personally hope that the "process of continual improvement" never stops (damn FDA). Not just the improvement of the satisfaction of our vape, but improvement of the safety aspects as well.

I see "Temperature Control" as being part of that process of improvement.....