New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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It may say that to people who don't actually read the thread and the information provided in the thread. That is not the fault of the person doing the testing and reporting the results.
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Maybe it's been a while since I watched the vids but I could of sworn I remember in the Kistler video testing on various setups including a tootlepuffer setup and sub ohm tank?
@Mowgli
I have looked and looked, I just dont see how to get a wire up in the Mizer.
I am going to take one to work and show it to a Machinist and see if he has any ideas. Like maybe a well placed hole drilled somewhere. The challenge is that you have to screw it together, and that twisting would wreak havoc on these tiny sensor wires.
I have looked and looked, I just dont see how to get a wire up in the Mizer.
I am going to take one to work and show it to a Machinist and see if he has any ideas. Like maybe a well placed hole drilled somewhere. The challenge is that you have to screw it together, and that twisting would wreak havoc on these tiny sensor wires.
ROFLMAO, like Double-D'OH, why didnt I think of that, I just did that on the nano.
Let me look at it again.....
Filling the tank will be delicate work though.
So we have a bunch of tests, experience and still lingering questions remain.
Example: I have a 1/2 dozen or more Aspire Nautilus and Kanger Subtank Mini's floating around here (and more in my 'vape stash'), However I do not own or use the coils that were used in the study. Are any coils in these devices safe or just the ones that were studied under the conditions of the study?
I don't know about the rest of you but I'm willing to donate an Aspire Nautilus and Kanger Subtank Mini to Mike (along with the proper coils if I can find them) so that he might be able to measure the actual coil temperature of those devices under the same conditions as the study.
- We have a study of 5 devices and various measurements of nasty byproducts produced (or not!). Most if not all the 5 devices would of been nearly impossible to measure the actual coil temperatures reached during the study so we have no idea what temperatures were reached.
- We have a study of 3 different juice mixtures, temperatures and various measurements of nasty byproducts produced (or not!). The testing fixture bore no resemblance to vapor products.
Example: I have a 1/2 dozen or more Aspire Nautilus and Kanger Subtank Mini's floating around here (and more in my 'vape stash'), However I do not own or use the coils that were used in the study. Are any coils in these devices safe or just the ones that were studied under the conditions of the study?
I don't know about the rest of you but I'm willing to donate an Aspire Nautilus and Kanger Subtank Mini to Mike (along with the proper coils if I can find them) so that he might be able to measure the actual coil temperature of those devices under the same conditions as the study.
@mikepetro
Thanks for running the tests you have so far. You have at least taken some action to try and address the issue, and that is a great deal more than some of the keyboard warriors that have been critical about what you are trying to achieve.
I was surprised that the DNA device was as accurate temperature wise as it was.
I don't own a temp control mod, as I have been using a mech squonker for a long time now.
I did do some testing of my own to try and validate the coil temps with my particular set up.
My usual setup is an 8/9 wrap 30AWG kanthal coil round a 1.5mm drill bit it usually comes out around 1.75 ohms. Definitely tootle territory.
Initial test showed the coil reaching temperatures well over the 450 degree threshold on a fresh battery using my normal 70/30 VG/PG juice with no airflow, with a 5 second on 5 second off repeated test 3 or 4 cycles and I was easily exceeding 500 degrees.
I repeated the tests with some airflow and the temperature dropped considerably, greater airflow led to a greater drop in temp. I don't have the kit to measure the airflow rate. Even with my fairly tight MTL type airflow the temperature dropped enough to put me in the "safe zone".
But what surprised me the most was the drop in coil temp when I made the switch to a 25/75 VG/PG juice ratio repeating the initial test I did, the coil temp was a good 50 or 60 degrees lower. I would think this is down to a combination of the lower boiling point and increased juice flow to the coil.
Given the massive range of wire types, airflow options, juice ratios, vaping styles and power levels my feeling is, if you want to know what the coil temp and be sure that you are below a certain temperature, the best option would be a properly set up TC device. This would work out much cheaper for most, as not many of us have access to decent test equipment. With a mech /VV/VW setup it is going to be more difficult to control the temperature, especially if you chain vape.
It was awkward enough trying to get decent repeatable results just doing one set of tests on a basic RDA and one type of coil. I don't envy Mike trying to get results across a range of devices.
Maybe the best option for any non TC mod users bothered enough by the Wang study findings, is to switch to a lower level of VG and only use the minimum amount of power to get the vape we want?
I think the advice I was given when I first started vaping still works for a lot of us, start at a low power level and work up slowly till you get the vape you need and then stop!
Thanks for running the tests you have so far. You have at least taken some action to try and address the issue, and that is a great deal more than some of the keyboard warriors that have been critical about what you are trying to achieve.
I was surprised that the DNA device was as accurate temperature wise as it was.
I don't own a temp control mod, as I have been using a mech squonker for a long time now.
I did do some testing of my own to try and validate the coil temps with my particular set up.
My usual setup is an 8/9 wrap 30AWG kanthal coil round a 1.5mm drill bit it usually comes out around 1.75 ohms. Definitely tootle territory.
Initial test showed the coil reaching temperatures well over the 450 degree threshold on a fresh battery using my normal 70/30 VG/PG juice with no airflow, with a 5 second on 5 second off repeated test 3 or 4 cycles and I was easily exceeding 500 degrees.
I repeated the tests with some airflow and the temperature dropped considerably, greater airflow led to a greater drop in temp. I don't have the kit to measure the airflow rate. Even with my fairly tight MTL type airflow the temperature dropped enough to put me in the "safe zone".
But what surprised me the most was the drop in coil temp when I made the switch to a 25/75 VG/PG juice ratio repeating the initial test I did, the coil temp was a good 50 or 60 degrees lower. I would think this is down to a combination of the lower boiling point and increased juice flow to the coil.
Given the massive range of wire types, airflow options, juice ratios, vaping styles and power levels my feeling is, if you want to know what the coil temp and be sure that you are below a certain temperature, the best option would be a properly set up TC device. This would work out much cheaper for most, as not many of us have access to decent test equipment. With a mech /VV/VW setup it is going to be more difficult to control the temperature, especially if you chain vape.
It was awkward enough trying to get decent repeatable results just doing one set of tests on a basic RDA and one type of coil. I don't envy Mike trying to get results across a range of devices.
Maybe the best option for any non TC mod users bothered enough by the Wang study findings, is to switch to a lower level of VG and only use the minimum amount of power to get the vape we want?
I think the advice I was given when I first started vaping still works for a lot of us, start at a low power level and work up slowly till you get the vape you need and then stop!
The Subtank-mini is idenitcal construction to the Subtank-nano I tested last weekend, so I am confident I can get the sensor in it. The Aspire Nautilus, I dont know, maybe, I would need to play with one.
No clue what "commercial e-liquid" juices were used so I cant replicate that.
I dont own a VV mode so I cant replicate that. How many people run VV anymore?
The question I have, is even if I could replicate the test environment, whats the value of me testing these. Yes I could correlate temps to a 2 year old study, but if nobody uses that gear anymore, what good does it do?
I go away for a weekend for my daughter's graduation, and this is what I come back to?
Mike, really nice results from this weekend's testing. While it may be hundreds of posts back, I'll toss in a quick vote for the screen caps of the curve being most useful, especially in following consecutive power applications. I can't begin to tell you how useful the data you've gathered has been, and how you have established a methodology to answer the key question that will pull all this together. What is produced by a current generation vape device/coil/tank/e liquid/whatever else you wan to throw in when vaping at a given temperature as managed by a temp control circuit, rather than by application of power as defined by voltage or wattage only? Your thermocouple methodology offers the ability to do both by an investigator who can capture the vape product and quantify presence of different chemicals under "real world" conditions.
Right now we can draw the following conclusions. First, temp control by retail available hardware is an accurate reflection of the coil's actual temperature despite functioning as both the "thermocouple" for temp calculation as well as the source of vaporization for our e liquid. Second, "real world" temperatures measured in power mode alone can be higher than expected from subjective judgement of the "vape quality" (although you were pretty good at describing the vape quality in your testing, and we're not talking about only dry hits). Third, PG/VG ratios do play an important role in the type of vape produced as well as the temperatures reached by the coil under vaping conditions. I think I covered everything, and if I didn't, my apologies as this thread has meandered all over the place.
Based on extrapolation from the Wang reactor study, vapers can reach temperatures high enough to increase the production of breakdown products. Rather than rely on extrapolation and indirect testing, the next step is the measurement of chemical breakdown products out of a current generation tank/coil while measuring the temperature in real time. That really is the only way to determine if changes in vaping patterns and behavior is necessary from a safety perspective. Again, going back to studies looking at aldehyde production with current vape gear as measured under different power settings (not temp controlled use) results do lean towards lower levels than the reactor study might otherwise expect.
Mike, this has all been terrific in execution and collation of results. I have no doubt that testing of real time temps with "real time" measurements for aldehyde production will be generated in the near future.
Mike, really nice results from this weekend's testing. While it may be hundreds of posts back, I'll toss in a quick vote for the screen caps of the curve being most useful, especially in following consecutive power applications. I can't begin to tell you how useful the data you've gathered has been, and how you have established a methodology to answer the key question that will pull all this together. What is produced by a current generation vape device/coil/tank/e liquid/whatever else you wan to throw in when vaping at a given temperature as managed by a temp control circuit, rather than by application of power as defined by voltage or wattage only? Your thermocouple methodology offers the ability to do both by an investigator who can capture the vape product and quantify presence of different chemicals under "real world" conditions.
Right now we can draw the following conclusions. First, temp control by retail available hardware is an accurate reflection of the coil's actual temperature despite functioning as both the "thermocouple" for temp calculation as well as the source of vaporization for our e liquid. Second, "real world" temperatures measured in power mode alone can be higher than expected from subjective judgement of the "vape quality" (although you were pretty good at describing the vape quality in your testing, and we're not talking about only dry hits). Third, PG/VG ratios do play an important role in the type of vape produced as well as the temperatures reached by the coil under vaping conditions. I think I covered everything, and if I didn't, my apologies as this thread has meandered all over the place.
Based on extrapolation from the Wang reactor study, vapers can reach temperatures high enough to increase the production of breakdown products. Rather than rely on extrapolation and indirect testing, the next step is the measurement of chemical breakdown products out of a current generation tank/coil while measuring the temperature in real time. That really is the only way to determine if changes in vaping patterns and behavior is necessary from a safety perspective. Again, going back to studies looking at aldehyde production with current vape gear as measured under different power settings (not temp controlled use) results do lean towards lower levels than the reactor study might otherwise expect.
Mike, this has all been terrific in execution and collation of results. I have no doubt that testing of real time temps with "real time" measurements for aldehyde production will be generated in the near future.
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Thanks Layzee One....
Not all DNAs are that accurate, there are a lot of factors involved to make them accurate, (see this post for more info), but even an inaccurate one is usually better than no TC, and you can tweak things to get the accuracy in most cases.
What was you temp on that rig with usable airflow?
Yes, the boiling Point of your liquid is HUGE.
Did you start with a fresh bat for each test? I ask because a progressive drop of voltage in a mech "could" have resulted in lower temps as well, potentially skewing things.
Yes, TC sure makes the whole temp thing a LOT easier to manage.
I am certainly in the minority on ECF and among newer vapers, but I suspect there are a significant number of vapers using VV with a variety of toppers - Protanks, Evods, etc. I think many vapers using older style setups that are happy with them simply don't participate much here on ECF as there's not much new for them to discuss as well as the general sentiment that what we like is "obsolete".
I would be happy to send you both a VV device and my preferred top coil tank
to attempt testing, as well as some of my mix. It would be useful to validate/repudiate findings in other studies, but may not be of enough interest to you and most here. (I would want the device back, as it will be a ProVari
) Whaddya say?
Whats the topper?I am certainly in the minority on ECF and among newer vapers, but I suspect there are a significant number of vapers using VV with a variety of toppers - Protanks, Evods, etc. I think many vapers using older style setups that are happy with them simply don't participate much here on ECF as there's not much new for them to discuss as well as the general sentiment that what we like is "obsolete".
I would be happy to send you both a VV device and my preferred top coil tank
ETA: I need to look it up to see if there is a chance of getting a probe in it.
It's a Vision Vivi Nova 2.5, polycarbonate tube. As it doesn't depend on vacuum, I was thinking that a pinhole through the side of the tank, aligned with where the coil sits in the head, may allow a skinny thermocouple to pass through horizontally to reach the coil while remaining vapable. Just a theory though!
Gosh, I used to have a bunch of those.
Yeah, I think I can work with that. But I would want several coil heads, as sometimes I destroy them before I nail down a method. Went through 4 of the SSOCC cartridges to get that last test down.
Don't know if this was mentioned before... I wonder if you would get differing levels of carcinogens based on coils made with different types of wire?
The degradation of PG/VG is a function of temperature.
As for the metallurgy stuff, I have not seen any tables showing how metals might react with PG/VG, although I do know there is something about SS that they were concerned about in the Wang study.
A lot of these metals do give off nasties of their own. You would need to look up the metal in question for details. For example TI and Tungsten can both give off really bad nasties in a dry burn or dry hit scenerio, but both are considered generally inert at normal vaping temperatures.
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