New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

I posted this in a different forum years ago in a thread about quotes -

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.
This principle is, contempt prior to examination."

Misattributed to Herbert Spencer .
Actually a misquote from William Paley.

Also from William Paley in Natural Theology : or, Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity, Collected from the Appearances of Nature (1802)

"Virtue is infinitely various.
There is no situation in which a rational being is placed, from that of the best instructed Christian down to the condition of the rudest barbarian, which affords not room for moral agency; for the acquisition, exercise, and display of voluntary qualities, good and bad.
Health and sickness, enjoyment and suffering, riches and poverty, knowledge and ignorance, power and subjection, liberty and bondage, civilisation and barbarity, have all their offices and duties, all serve for the formation of character: for when we speak of a state of trial, it must be remembered, that characters are not only tried, or proved, or detected, but that they are generated also, and formed, by circumstances.
The best dispositions may subsist under the most depressed, the most afflicted fortunes."

I just read this for the first time today when I was searching that first quote that I've enjoyed for about 22 years.

My take on it is this example from my life:

My wife and I were driving north on Interstate 93 from NH to Vermont on our honeymoon about 8 years ago.
We saw a mess of splattered ducks up ahead with a MC biker holding an injured duck in his arms by the side of the carnage on the road.
We pulled over to offer assistance if we could.
He was a scary, rough 1% MC patched guy with tears welling in his eyes from desperation, frustration & compassion.
He saw cars ahead of him run right through a family of ducks crossing the road without swerving or slowing. No brakelights. Nothing.
He knew the area so we took the duck and followed him to the local animal emergency clinic.
We chatted with him there and he's friends with our friend that's the Prez of a Cape Cod Chapter 1% MC.

It doesn't matter where he came from or what he's done in the past, when it came to that injured duck that he wanted to help he was a 10 year old kid with a good heart.
That was one of the most touching events of my life.

Very common English idiom "don't judge a book by its cover"
origin - Roman author Juvenal (1st and 2nd centuries AD)

I first read it in a Big Blue book........

 

[SteveS45]

"Supposed"??? Should I be insulted? Are you saying I didnt do them, or are you implying they arent real tests?

They hold weight in telling us what temperatures the coils actually see under actual use. I claim nothing more. Please show me any other test that actually measured the temperature of a coil while someone was vaping it. (interpolated TC measurements dont count) Measuring the temp "while vaping" takes into consideration the mitigating factors like juice flow, airflow, etc under REAL LIFE conditions. Of course each test is only valid for the gear combination that I used, and I have made that clear throughout.

There were many erroneous notions about coil temps throughout this thread, there were also many questions about what temps our coils can actually achieve. That was all I was attempting here, I dont have the equipment to prove anything more.

When you show that you are testing more than just temperatures then these might hold some weight in my opinion.

 

[Mowgli]

I first read it in a Big Blue book........

There's no toasting-with-coffee emoji

 

[Rossum]

Thats the whole reason the FDA is pushing for closed systems. With a closed system you can measure that specific set of variables with a degree of certainty.

Closed systems have other "selling points" as well:

• They are very profitable for the few large companies that are likely to get PMTAs approved.
• It's easy to tax them.

Thus they fit perfectly into the corporatocracy.

 

[Rossum]

Fair enough, .... but nautilus vs. PT, both bottom coil and replaceable, one had significantly lower aldehyde emissions at comparable power ....

Stock PT coils were something like 32 gauge wicked with silica. Remember how much better we were able to make them by rebuilding them with 30 gauge and wicking them with cotton?

I don't know what the Nautilus coils were made of. I never had anything that use them 'cause I had moved on to Kayfuns before they caught on.

 

[mikepetro]

When you show that you are testing more than just temperatures then these might hold some weight in my opinion.

Cool...... I guess it has no value to "you" then, but it does appear to have value to others, so I guess I will keep doing it.

My tests seem to hold some weight to @440BB who wanted to know what the temp was on his VV Nova when he ran it on a Provari at 3.9v.

My tests seem to hold some weight to @Mowgli who wanted to know what the temp was on his massive space heater when he ran it on a VW mod at 60w.

To me, their opinions count as well.....

 

[SteveS45]

I see a few who do not find these "tests" as much more than Pseudo Science. Simple temperature testing does not verify the present of the carcinogenics. As I said when you can test for the presence of them then I will look at this differently.

 

[Rossum]

"The type of electronic cigarette used in this study was a third-generation product (“Mods”) composed of two separately purchased components: the battery and the atomizer. The battery was a 2200 mAh battery (Eleaf, ISTICK, 30W, Ismoka, China) providing a variable output voltage/wattage range of 2–8 V/5–30 W. The atomizer was a Kayfun 3.1 (EHPRO, China) re-buildable bottom coil atomizer with an adjustable airflow. The amount of airflow going to the coil was kept constant at 50% aperture for all the measurements. The transparent tank had a capacity of approximately 4.5 mL. Throughout all of the measurement a 11 cm long Nichrome 80 type (0.3 mm diameter) wire was used to wrap the coil (11 wraps). The resistance of this coil corresponded to approximately 1.6 Ohm. The e-liquid was transferred to the coil via a cotton-wick."

Plugging that stuff into Steam Engine leads me to conclude that the coil ID was between 2 and 2.4mm, and at 20w, the heat flux was not much more than 200 mW/mm^2, not at all outrageous.

I never had that exact model of Kayfun, but there's no way I would have run a stock KFL+ or R91 at 20W. 12 was good, and 15 was pushing things. Interesting how that correlates with the graphs that show bad things beginning to happen at 15 and pretty much out of control at 20.

 

[mikepetro]

I see a few who do not find these "tests" as much more than Pseudo Science. Simple temperature testing does not verify the present of the carcinogenics. As I said when you can test for the presence of them then I will look at this differently.

Then move on..... I will continue to help those that want it.

I never said it "proved" the existence of carcinogenics.
But Otmar Guiss did....

Correlation of volatile carbonyl yields emitted by e-cigarettes with the temperature of the heating coil and the perceived sensorial quality of the generated vapours

 

[Rossum]

I see a few who do not find these "tests" as much more than Pseudo Science. Simple temperature testing does not verify the present of the carcinogenics. As I said when you can test for the presence of them then I will look at this differently.

Mike has NOT made any claims that bad stuff is (or isn't) produced. All he's done is collect data that shows that coil temperatures can easily get hot enough where bad things COULD be produced. This is something that many of us previously questioned. There is nothing at all "Psueudo" about what he's done.

 

[mikepetro]

Plugging that stuff into Steam Engine leads me to conclude that the coil ID was between 2 and 2.4mm, and at 20w, the heat flux was not much more than 200 mW/mm^2, not at all outrageous.

I never had that exact model of Kayfun, but there's no way I would have run a stock KFL+ or R91 at 20W. 12 was good, and 15 was pushing things. Interesting how that correlates with the graphs that show bad things beginning to happen at 15 and pretty much out of control at 20.

Agreed, thats why I questioned it.

I ran my R91 on a DNA. If it was a DNA30 I dont remember the watts, if it was a DNA40 I used NI and ran it on Temp.

 

[kross8]

Then move on..... I will continue to help those that want it.

I never said it "proved" the existence of carcinogenics.
But Otmar Guiss did....

Correlation of volatile carbonyl yields emitted by e-cigarettes with the temperature of the heating coil and the perceived sensorial quality of the generated vapours

ignore Steve , Mike you are working hard to help everyone and likely 99% or 100% out of your own pocket,,,,,,,,,,,,and at least 99% of us appreciate your work.

early into vaping i had read about tempt creating nasties at a higher temp......so i stopped microwaving my diy mixes and tossed them, then your mentioning of a study addressing temp again,, but this time from the equipment we are using (well sort of ) it made me double check myself,, now i do not know the temp of my set up,, but its not 'hot' more like just above cool and under warm. i use your notes to remind myself to watch for any new details you or others may discover.

again--------THANKS!

 

[SteveS45]

Yes ignore valid concerns and opinions and just accept that the study that produced the results in question is valid. But many others have pointed out the lack of air flow among many other dependencies in that study. So believe all of it and stop vaping? No still want to vape huh?

 

[zoiDman]

I see a few who do not find these "tests" as much more than Pseudo Science. Simple temperature testing does not verify the present of the carcinogenics. As I said when you can test for the presence of them then I will look at this differently.

There is an Old Say'n that...

"If you hold your head up high enough, someone will always throw a rock at it."

This thread kinda Validates it.

 

[smokinGAVIN]

I now vape with TC because of this thread. I still haven't found my sweet spot but I am getting close. I still get my nic fix and that's what is important to me. I do still follow this thread hoping that one of the tests will be on a build like mine and if found safe I will go back to kanthal which for me is still the best vape.

 

[kross8]

Yes ignore valid concerns and opinions and just accept that the study that produced the results in question is valid. But many others have pointed out the lack of air flow among many other dependencies in that study. So believe all of it and stop vaping? No still want to vape huh?

Steve,,
take some time to regroup.

 

[SteveS45]

Steve,, you are an angry man always looking for a fight. when you first started at this board there was some sort of rif and a few people migrated to the other board VU,, where you promptly got your 'i hate ecf' badge and slammed this board. i dont think people much appreciated that since you didn't have a dog in that fight.

take some time to regroup.

This is uncalled for and not very ladylike.

 

[Rossum]

Then move on..... I will continue to help those that want it.

I never said it "proved" the existence of carcinogenics.
But Otmar Guiss did....

Correlation of volatile carbonyl yields emitted by e-cigarettes with the temperature of the heating coil and the perceived sensorial quality of the generated vapours

A few other interesting snippets from that study:

Results in Table 2 show that emissions from tobacco cigarettes are from 2 to 32 times higher for formaldehyde and from 600 to 2100 time higher for acetaldehyde depending on the battery output of the e-cigarette and the tar-yield of the tobacco cigarette.

this study shows that vapers self-limit themselves and that it is unlikely that they choose wattages which lead to very high carbonyl emissions

 

[classwife]

Attention please...
If you do not have an interest in the subject matter of this thread you are cordially invited to not post in it.
Disruptions of threads will stop.

 

[kross8]

just curious,, what is the highest known temp any mod will go?

i dont use tempts,, and to be honest i only look at mod watt ranges.