New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Can someone give me some brief outlines about this?
I was going to go 316SS at 28 gauge, and aim for the lowest temp I can get away with.
Theory being that a slightly higher resistance and lower mass is easier for the electronics to control accurately.

Depending on whose mod you select, the electronics are good enough that they will control any reasonable coil your throw at it.

A few observations:

• Of all the TC wires, SS is probably the hardest to control accurately because it has such a narrow TCR. NI is the easiest to control, and TI would be somewhere in the middle. 26AWG TU is my current favorite, but it is rather springy which makes it a tick harder to work with.
  
• I wouldnt worry about building a coil to "suit a mod", build your coils to suit your "vape". If you like a heavy vape, build a higher mass coil, either heavier gauge and/or more wraps. If you like a lighter vape then build a lower mass coil with thinner gauge and/or less wraps.
• Wick wisely. Whatever coil you build make sure you use a wick that can keep it well saturated. With TC you wont get dry-hits, you will just get anemic hits if there isnt enough juice.
• If you are aiming for a low temp, use a juice that is light in VG. VG requires requires higher temps to get a similarly satisfying hit.
• Whatever Mod you get, do the research to make sure you are getting accurate readings. See my post below for a primer.

Yes, I have long had confidence in the DNA line. but just because mine is accurate doesnt mean they all are. And while not the intent of this thread, TC accuracy is dependent on a lot of variables.

• The manufacturer of the board
• How well the mod was constructed, specifically with respect to the solder joints to the 510 connector
• Is it a quality 510 connector, many spring loaded connectors dont have enough tension
  
• Was the mod calibrated to account for internal resistance
  
• The quality of the atty, specifically its internal resistance and stability under heat flux
• The accuracy of the TCR curve being used with respect to the wire
• The quality and consistency of the wire.
• The technique of the user in assembling all of the above

There are a lot factors that must come together to have an accurate TC reading on a mod. A mere couple hundredths of an ohm can make a big difference with some of the wire being used.

 

[mikepetro]

I get that it 'feels' like some of our vaping styles are being attacked. I have to be honest, when this thread started, I felt like mine was also..

I get that. And I am partially to blame.

All of this data concerning carcinogens is centered around temp/nasty relationships.
At temp "Y" you get "X" amount of nasties. TEMP IS THE TRIGGER

I have been a TC convert since the very beginning, heck I was on the beta trials for the DNA40. My opening day review of the DNA40 got copied and plagiarized all over net. I am sold on the tech because I know it works quite well, if you learn the niggles.

So when reports came out saying that nasties start to rise significantly at around 450f, "to me" the answer was simple, use a TC mod and set the temp lower. - Problem solved.

Then all the questions started coming up about what does my kanthal mod do, I dont have a TC mod, I cant afford a TC mod, I like kanthal, and many other variants. Quite frankly, at first I was stumped. My simple answer was if you care about temp, get a TC Mod. The initial reactions surprised me, I didnt see the big deal in trying out TC. The other forums I hang out in are mostly TC people, and they took all this "nasty" data in stride, no major reactions, just "oh, I need to turn it down 10 degrees".

But then I realized how personal people took the various solutions they had found for themselves, this was VERY personal to them. This XYZ mod got me off the stinkies, and I "know" it works for me.

So I started thinking about it. I do have the skillset to measure things, I made a career out of it. So I started trying to figure out a way to tackle this particular application.

Now, there is no way in hell that I can profile every atty out there, but I can do a few, and from those few we can at least get an idea of what is going on. From there I hoped we could identify some patterns that would help people regardless of what they vaped.

But I had to do it in a way that dispels most of the naysayer arguments:

• It had to be a credible external instrument doing the measurement, extrapolated DNA measurements would not be accepted.
• It had to be inside of a closed atty. Otherwise it would be debunked as "not being the same as what we do"
  
• I had to be to actually vape it while measuring. Anything short of that would have been debunked by the masses as not being the same.
• I had to be able to take enough pictures to convince people I was doing something sensible, and applicable. A picture is worth a thousand words, and I really didnt want to have to write ISO/ISA level documentation to back myself up.

So, anyway, yes, my naivete probably lent itself to a "TC or Bust" attitude at first. For that I apologize. However, I "think" I have redeemed myself by stepping up to the plate and finding a compromise. Provide the data I can, and let folks decide for themselves.

The really tough one though is the CE4s, everything I see on them, from very credible sources, says they are bad stuff. I just dont know how to sugarcoat that one.

 

[Rossum]

(Evolv never actually measured the coil temp separate from monitoring the resistance, in other words, treating the coil as both heat source and thermocouple)

Evolv's boards don't measure temperature separately, but Evolv certainly does measure coil temperatures separately during the development process for their boards.

 

[mikepetro]

Evolv's boards don't measure temperature separately, but Evolv certainly does measure coil temperatures separately during the development process for their boards.

I can attest to that, they have instrumentation that makes mine look like it came out of a Cracker Jack box.

 

[mikepetro]

This testing should have properly been done by someone like Evolv with the resources and capital to test their own equipment, rather than trying to infer temperatures from e cig stat data. But they didn't so.

I can assure you it was done by Evolv. They have reams of data from their in-house testing. They are also submitting a PMTA and have reams of data to support that. They have reams of data concerning the temp/nasty phenomena as well. They even built a special mod just for the NIH specifically made for the government to collect data on vaping.

They dont release the data for several reasons, the first and foremost reason is exactly why we have 176 pages in this thread so far. They know that their data will be torn apart, misconstrued, attempted to be debunked, and every tiny flaw blown into a nuclear mishap. They simply dont choose to invest the time (176 pages etc) that it would take to defend themselves against the onslaught of folks that would attempt to rip them apart. They are running a business, trying to sell product, and investing every spare moment they have in trying to prepare PMTAs to ensure their long term survival.

Plus, as has already been seen in this very thread, anything they say will be "shrugged off" because of the perception that since they have a "vested interest" in selling TC mods, then their data must naturally be "skewed" towards generating them business.

If they throw their data out there, they have to be willing to invest the considerable resources it would take to defend it. They choose to put those resources elsewhere right now.

You know, after suffering the onslaught I have gotten in this thread, I cant blame them for not wanting to smack that hornet's nest.

 

[Oomee]

Depending on whose Mod you select, the electronics are good enough that they will control any reasonable coil your throw at it.

A few observations:

• Of all the TC wires, SS is probably the hardest to control accurately because it has such a narrow TCR. NI is the easiest to control, and TI would be somewhere in the middle. 26AWG TU is my current favorite, but it is rather springy which makes it a tick harder to work with.
  
• I wouldnt worry about building a coil to "suit a mod", build your coils to suit your "vape". If you like a heavy vape, build a higher mass coil, either heavier gauge and/or more wraps. If you like a lighter vape then build a lower mass coil with thinner gauge and/or less wraps.
• Wick wisely. Whatever coil you build make sure you use a wick that can keep it well saturated. With TC you wont get dry-hits, you will just get anemic hits if there isnt enough juice.
• If you are aiming for a low temp, use a juice that is light in VG. VG requires requires higher temps to get a similarly satisfying hit.
• Whatever Mod you get, do the research to make sure you are getting accurate readings. See my post below for a primer.

Cheers for that, interesting about the mods...
...does it ever get simpler?

 

[Eskie]

I can assure you it was done by Evolv. They have reams of data from their in-house testing. They are also submitting a PMTA and have reams of data to support that. They have reams of data concerning the temp/nasty phenomena as well. They even built a special mod just for the NIH specifically made for the government to collect data on vaping.

They dont release the data for several reasons, the first and foremost reason is exactly why we have 176 pages in this thread so far. They know that their data will be torn apart, misconstrued, attempted to be debunked, and every tiny flaw blown into a nuclear mishap. They simply dont choose to invest the time (176 pages etc) that it would take to defend themselves against the onslaught of folks that would attempt to rip them apart. They are running a business, trying to sell product, and investing every spare moment they have in trying to prepare PMTAs to ensure their long term survival.

Plus, as has already been seen in this very thread, anything they say will be "shrugged off" because of the perception that since they have a "vested interest" in selling TC mods, then their data must naturally be "skewed" towards generating them business.

If they throw their data out there, they have to be willing to invest the considerable resources it would take to defend it. They choose to put those resources elsewhere right now.

You know, after suffering the onslaught I have gotten in this thread, I cant blame them for not wanting to smack that hornet's nest.

OTOH, choosing to present those e cig stats numbers is what opened Pandora's box for this thread.

Of course they have extensive resources, and I'm sure they've got all sorts of fun tools to play with. But, IMO, what they did wrong was try and support their products with Wang's thermal data and then a bunch of stats, which ended their presentation with TC will save the day (paraphrasing). They could have offered up the e cig stats data with one slide to the effect "our testing shows temp controlled coils correlate with other direct measurements of coil temperatures" OR they should have kept quiet and waited for the real study to be presented by someone titled "Aldehyde Production by Current Generation Vaping Products Correlates With Increasing Operating Temperature".

Then we wouldn't have had 172 pages to read, and you would have had your weekends free for something other than tucking thermocouples into little metal coils.

 

[mikepetro]

Believe me, having ran several ECF co-ops for Evolv products (among others), and having been on most of their "beta groups", I gave up a long time ago trying to figure them out. Sometimes they can be so helpful that you thought they were kin, other times it becomes radio silence to the point of wondering if they were still in business or not.

To put it in context though, that workshop I posted here was intended for a bureaucratic vape audience. I am the one to blame for bringing it to the "layperson". Vapers were not the intended audience, bureaucrats were.

 

[Eskie]

To put it in context though, that workshop I posted here was intended for a bureaucratic vape audience. I am the one to blame for bringing it to the "layperson". Vapers were not the intended audience, bureaucrats were.

Well, at least this way they got another 3,400 posts to market their products, and they have independent data of your to corroborate any test results they provide. Win/win for them, loss of fun time for you.

 

[mikepetro]

Well, at least this way they got another 3,400 posts to market their products, and they have independent data of your to corroborate any test results they provide. Win/win for them, loss of fun time for you.

You have a way more negative attitude towards them than I do. They are good guys. I have spent hours on the phone with Brandon just talking about vape concepts, no business involved. John is an absolute genius, no two ways about it. But he's never wrong (or at least he will seldom admit it), so if you think he is, you better be loaded for bear and have irrefutable facts behind you.

They have their fair share of issues, but can you name a single other vendor in the vape business that stands up to their warranty as good as they do? I have seen people butcher boards through sheer incompetence and Evolve swapped them out - no questions asked.

Oh, and just for the full disclosure record, I am not employed by Evolv, I do not get any money from Evolv, I am simply a customer. They do toss me a beta mod to test for them every now and then, but I earn that mod by doing all the testing (not a trivial task), it is not a gift.

 

[mikepetro]

OTOH, choosing to present those e cig stats numbers is what opened Pandora's box for this thread.

Of course they have extensive resources, and I'm sure they've got all sorts of fun tools to play with. But, IMO, what they did wrong was try and support their products with Wang's thermal data and then a bunch of stats, which ended their presentation with TC will save the day (paraphrasing). They could have offered up the e cig stats data with one slide to the effect "our testing shows temp controlled coils correlate with other direct measurements of coil temperatures" OR they should have kept quiet and waited for the real study to be presented by someone titled "Aldehyde Production by Current Generation Vaping Products Correlates With Increasing Operating Temperature".

Then we wouldn't have had 172 pages to read, and you would have had your weekends free for something other than tucking thermocouples into little metal coils.

Or next time I can just keep my mouth shut........

 

[Ryedan]

This is an honest question, do many people vape a 1.6ohm coil at 20w+?

That build sounded like it might be similar to my setups so I modeled it in SE Mike. At 20 watts it has a heat flux of 167 mW/mm². My current build in a Rose V3 using SS316 at 0.61 ohms runs 20 watts at 219 mW/mm². I typically vape it between 19-21 watts. My build has less safety factor for something going wrong (badly wicked for instance) than the 1.6 ohm build. In this atty, the way I have it set up, using 100% pg, the coil never goes over about 400 F until the coil gets really gunked. That is what I see in both a Pico 75 and a RX200 in TC mode, calibrated using the cotton scorch method.

I also want to say a heart felt thank you for all the work you're doing for us all. It was sadly needed and you have really stepped up

 

[Eskie]

You have a way more negative attitude towards them than I do. They are good guys. I have spent hours on the phone with Brandon just talking about vape concepts, no business involved. John is an absolute genius, no two ways about it. But he's never wrong (or at least he will seldom admit it), so if you think he is, you better be loaded for bear and have irrefutable facts behind you.

No, I do view them as good guys. I think they make a solid product and stand behind it well. I certainly have enough of their products laying around here.

I think it was for that very reason that video workshop was so bothersome. There was nothing to be gained from that presentation other than some flashy marketing points, and I've always felt they tried to stay above that stuff. It reminded me of the slick mix and match data presentations naysayers always throw up to save the children. When you're a leading figure in an industry with a solid reputation, don't leave yourself open to the kind of criticism that could be brought like it was here. Just consider, if he had one slide in there that showed validation of TC selection matching a second independent method for temp measurement, that cig stat data could have flown along with nary a complaint. And I'm sure the data exists.

 

[Ryedan]

Plugging that stuff into Steam Engine leads me to conclude that the coil ID was between 2 and 2.4mm, and at 20w, the heat flux was not much more than 200 mW/mm^2, not at all outrageous.

I never had that exact model of Kayfun, but there's no way I would have run a stock KFL+ or R91 at 20W. 12 was good, and 15 was pushing things. Interesting how that correlates with the graphs that show bad things beginning to happen at 15 and pretty much out of control at 20.

Rossum, you nudged my memory bank, thanks . I tried a Kayfun 3 or similar a few years ago, but I forgot about the small wick channels until I read your post. I couldn't get it to do more power until I machined out the channels. That made it better, but there wasn't enough room to go big enough for my preference so I left it. If I remember correctly the air flow was also limiting.

Resistance by itself is not a good indicator of vape performance, but HF by itself as I thought would do it in my last post isn't either. An atty also has to be able to move enough juice to keep the coil wet and move enough air or those will be the limiting factors.

 

[Ryedan]

Well, except them damn squonkers, nothing more than a bunch of bottom feeder.s......

And then there are those pesky flavor chasers ... I mean really

Sorry .. just couldn't resist

 

[mikepetro]

This was a PM I got, I am sharing it with his permission.

Two things leave me confused. First, in your notes, the change of voltage firing the atty isn't what I've experienced, as I believe it only test fires when checking resistance. Not a big deal for the testing though.
I based that on the fact that every time I changed voltage setting, I could see the thermocouple meter reading jump up over 100 degrees while I was doing it.

Second, after looking at the data and getting a sense that low voltage/wattage can potentially keep one under 400F on the Nova, the reference to the CE4 test seems to contradict the assumption that 400F may be a reasonable upper limit.
I think you are mixing up the two studies here.

• The WANG study contends that above 410 you get nasties, not correlated to any particular atty, just a function of temperature alone.
• The Kurt study measured nasties at ANY power level, ie irregardless of temperature, implying atty design as the issue.
  • I never proposed that a top coil atty had any safe temp
  • Since it is more than just temp alone in those attys creating the nasties, I wonder if it has something to do with the silica. Maybe silica doesnt "flow" enough mid hit to keep the coil wet, what if it drys out the section of wick under the coil (mid hit) and the wick doesnt replenish it fast enough? Maybe silica gives off nasties of its own. The lower threshold for nasties in these atties could also very well be a juice supply problem, maybe silica is just not the right material.
    • I did some testing on this a while back. Wicks have two different properties that we actually care about. Capillary action, and flow.
    • Capillary action is how fast/far a material can carry a liquid vertically without further assistance. See this video I did on the Capillary action of ceramic wicks back in the genny days:
    • Flow is how fast a material can carry a liquid if tilted correctly. For example back in the Genny days we experimented with twisted SS cable wicks (like clothes line wire). What we found is they worked GREAT because they flowed a lot of juice, but they had zero capillary action. So in order to use them you had to maintain the "genny tilt" while hitting to keep the wire submerged and flowing.

I am left wondering if extrapolating the CE4 to other toppers is realistic or comparing apples and oranges, or whether 400F is irrelevant if "any power level" was considered harmful.
I think lumping all top coil attys into the "Gen 2" bucket is a reasonable position, heck, thats what Kurt did. Now I am sure there will be some differences between them, heck they were some difference between 2 of your identical coils. I also suspect that that there is no safe temp on any top coil atty design, unless you mod the coil with other materials. For example, folks reported much better performance with cotton and larger wire on the bottom coils like the EVods, which were also considered unsafe by Kurt when stock.
(Idea: what if you loosely stuff the entire tank with rayon fiber, kind of like a big carto?)
I did something like this back in the Taifun days and worked extremely well:

It leaves me also wondering whether TC is the priority or topper/coil design. Should TC for kanthal become accurate and available, it wouldn't matter for all top and some bottom coil toppers (any second generation) based on Kurt's conclusion.
True, the problem is the atty design, first and foremost. And I still suspect silica as being inadequate.

I now wish I had sent you a few CE4's to dissect so we could find out about their temp levels. Novas aren't really available any more while CE4's remain on the market. Then again, Kurt's "any power level" conclusion implies it is an exercise in futility.
My own personal experience with those thing, was that the bigger the tank, the worse the problems got. I really think it is a "juice supply" issue, but that is just an educated guess. I also think "vacuum" comes into play in making newer designs safer. When you draw you create enough vacuum to help pull the juice into the atty chamber. Those top coil designs didnt do that to any appreciable degree.

The Nova temp results are in line with my expectations but the blanket statements about second generation devices undermine my new understanding of the relationship between temps, heat flux, air flow, liquid mix and the "nasties".
Those were Kurt's conclusions, and he had the equipment to measure the nasties. All I can do is measure temps.

 

[TJVapes]

I don't feel as though my vaping style is being attacked but I feel overwhelmed with the research I have to do to make vaping safer. I honestly wouldn't even bother if it was just me, but my daughter started vaping and was asking me about diacetyl and vaping safe and now I have to figure it all out. She quit smoking months ago and then got stressed and binge smoked and then ended up with a predator 228 and baby beast. Now I feel obligated to study my flavors and temp control. I think sometines people just get fed up with the amount of thinking this takes. I just wanna vape for Pete's sake! (And buy all the pretty things) I already have tidbits and basic info but now to hammer it out and apply it...

 

[Eskie]

I don't feel as though my vaping style is being attacked but I feel overwhelmed with the research I have to do to make vaping safer. I honestly wouldn't even bother if it was just me, but my daughter started vaping and was asking me about diacetyl and vaping safe and now I have to figure it all out. She quit smoking months ago and then got stressed and binge smoked and then ended up with a predator 228 and baby beast. Now I feel obligated to study my flavors and temp control. I think sometines people just get fed up with the amount of thinking this takes. I just wanna vape for Pete's sake! (And buy all the pretty things) I already have tidbits and basic info but now to hammer it out and apply it...

Remember there are still gaps in what we know for best practices when it comes to vaping. There is, however, no doubt that however she is vaping is way safer than smoking.

 

[mikepetro]

And then there are those pesky flavor chasers ... I mean really

Sorry .. just couldn't resist

Gunks my coil too much, I have gotten lazy, vape mostly unflavored these days, coils last MUCH longer.

 

[mikepetro]

I don't feel as though my vaping style is being attacked but I feel overwhelmed with the research I have to do to make vaping safer. I honestly wouldn't even bother if it was just me, but my daughter started vaping and was asking me about diacetyl and vaping safe and now I have to figure it all out. She quit smoking months ago and then got stressed and binge smoked and then ended up with a predator 228 and baby beast. Now I feel obligated to study my flavors and temp control. I think sometines people just get fed up with the amount of thinking this takes. I just wanna vape for Pete's sake! (And buy all the pretty things) I already have tidbits and basic info but now to hammer it out and apply it...

You dont have to dive into it at this level, just vape, and know that you are tremendously safer than smoking the baccy.

The thing is, vaping is only about a decade old. Its start was garage businesses, working for peanuts. We didnt have big money behind us to do a lot of fancy research, but we did what we could. So there is a LOT we still dont know about vaping, the physics of it, the long term health effects, etc. We know its a hell of a lot safer than smoking, but clearly there are some hazards involved as well, and we are just starting to understand those. I am sure BT knows a heck of a lot about it, but they have never been known to share their secrets.