New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Up to 18 variables....

Also please note, that with very few exception (ie gunky or starved coils & chain hits) I am not saying that any of these variables are bad. They simply all come into play when it comes to temp.

Spoiler: Shameless plug

A TC mod takes care of the vast majority of these variables for you.

 

[Katdarling]

I love pictures.

18 variables just twisted my brain in a komplete circle, and took my head into another dimension.

Thanks, Mike! What a fun Katurday nite!

 

[mikepetro]

VV & VW mod Temperature Variables
Information has been saved to a blog for posterity:
I will update the blog if/when information changes.

VV & VW Mod Temperature Variables | E-Cigarette Forum

While most here already knew all of this, the blog would be a good pointer to someone newer to these realms.

 

[zoiDman]

VV & VW Mod Temperature Variables
Information has been saved to a blog for posterity:
I will update the blog if/when information changes.

VV & VW Mod Temperature Variables | E-Cigarette Forum

While most here already knew all of this, the blog would be a good pointer to someone newer to these realms.

A Very Nice Blog Mike.

And once again, a Big Thumbs Up for all the Time/Work you have put into All of this.

 

[mikepetro]

Ok, next project, lets start a "Best Practices" list for those wishing to keep their temperatures lower while using non-TC mods.

FOLKS, PLEASE CONTRIBUTE!
**************************************************


VV/VW Best Practices to avoid High Temps (if desired)
(DRAFT v1)

Please note, that while these are considered Best Practice for avoiding higher temperatures, this by no means that you should discontinue vaping if should choose NOT to follow them. Vaping is already considered to be 95% safer than smoking, this is about making vaping even safer. So dont take this as an excuse to smoke again if you find it objectionable!

• Avoid Chain Hitting
  • Chain hitting a non TC mod will definitely, and sometimes very significantly increase the coil temperature. I have proven this with direct thermocouple measurements. What happens is the coil doesnt get a chance to cool between chain hits, so subsequent hits are already starting with a preheated coil. The more chain hits in a row, the hotter the coil will get each time.
• Diligently replace/clean your coil when they get gunked.
  • Gunked coils inhibit heat transfer, and the most common reaction is for a user to increase their power to compensate for the weaker hit, resulting in higher coil temps.
    
  • There is also data that suggests that burning the carbonized junk on a coil gives off its own nasties.
  • Juices with high percentages of flavoring, certain specific flavors (often darker ones), and high levels of sweeteners, are known for gunking coils faster. If you can handle it, unflavored eliquid will extend coil life greatly.
• Ensure good coil saturation via good wicking
  • If you starve a coil for juice, the temperature WILL rise on a non-TC mod. The more power hungry your coil, the better your wicking needs to be. Silica is a bad choice for wicking, if you have the option do select something else
• Select a lower boiling point juice if you have a "variable" (VV or VW) mod.
  • What a lower boiling point juice allows you to do is "lower your settings" to achieve a similarly satisfying hit, which will result in lower temperatures. Lower point liquids include those with lower VG content, or if high VG then diluted with 5-10% of distilled water.
• If using a top coil tank, take a few extra precautions
  • Refill when tank is no more than half empty.
  • ALWAYS do a swirl to ensure that the exposed wick is fully saturated before every hit.
• Take shorter, even if more frequent, hits.
  
  • The longer the hit the higher the temperature gets, this has been proven via accurate instrumentation.

Using these "Best Practices" will greatly reduce the probability of venturing into the questionable higher temperature ranges.

 

[Domejunky]

I'll buy that:

View attachment 662081

What's the source for this diagram?

I think air velocity is missing - maybe near strength/volume

 

[rokyo87]

Honestly? Sometimes it's just seems safer and easier to just light up and smoke tobacco cigarette... After all the majority of smokers live to theirs seventies...

 

[awsum140]

Honestly? Sometimes it's just seems safer and easier to just light up and smoke tobacco cigarette... After all the majority of smokers live to theirs seventies...

True, but generally attached to an oxygen tank and needing help to get up or down a flight of stairs.

 

[DPLongo22]

Honestly? Sometimes it's just seems safer and easier to just light up and smoke tobacco cigarette... After all the majority of smokers live to theirs seventies...

I know it's probably wrong that I'm laughing, but I do get what you're saying. Interestingly enough, your post almost exactly matches an email exchange I had last night with another long-time vaper.

I typed, "I'm really beginning to worry now. I think it may be safer to go back to smoking. :blink"

They replied, "Got a light?"

Not taking anything away from the staggeringly informative nature of the discussion, as it truly is well "above & beyond" (thank you, Mike!), but I can't help but envision a smoker, searching out information on vaping, stumbling onto it. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking Marlboro might keep that one in its fold.

I'm being facetious (I think/hope).

{back to semi-lurking; pardon the interruption}

 

[puffon]

After all the majority of smokers live to theirs seventies...

Once you reach 60, you'll be glad you have not reached your last decade of life.

 

[Eskie]

Ok, next project, lets start a "Best Practices" list for those wishing to keep their temperatures lower while using non-TC mods.

FOLKS, PLEASE CONTRIBUTE!
**************************************************


VV/VW Best Practices to avoid High Temps (if desired)
(DRAFT v1)

Please note, that while these are considered Best Practice for avoiding higher temperatures, this by no means that you should discontinue vaping if should choose NOT to follow them. Vaping is already considered to be 95% safer than smoking, this is about making vaping even safer. So dont take this as an excuse to smoke again if you find it objectionable!

• Avoid Chain Hitting
  • Chain hitting a non TC mod will definitely, and sometimes very significantly increase the coil temperature. I have proven this with direct thermocouple measurements. What happens is the coil doesnt get a chance to cool between chain hits, so subsequent hits are already starting with a preheated coil. The more chain hits in a row, the hotter the coil will get each time.
• Diligently replace/clean your coil when they get gunked.
  • Gunked coils inhibit heat transfer, and the most common reaction is for a user to increase their power to compensate for the weaker hit, resulting in higher coil temps.
    
  • There is also data that suggests that burning the carbonized junk on a coil gives off its own nasties.
  • Juices with high percentages of flavoring, certain specific flavors (often darker ones), and high levels of sweeteners, are known for gunking coils faster. If you can handle it, unflavored eliquid will extend coil life greatly.
• Ensure good coil saturation via good wicking
  • If you starve a coil for juice, the temperature WILL rise on a non-TC mod. The more power hungry your coil, the better your wicking needs to be. Silica is a bad choice for wicking, if you have the option do select something else
• Select a lower boiling point juice if you have a "variable" (VV or VW) mod.
  • What a lower boiling point juice allows you to do is "lower your settings" to achieve a similarly satisfying hit, which will result in lower temperatures. Lower point liquids include those with lower VG content, or if high VG then diluted with 5-10% of distilled water.
• If using a top coil tank, take a few extra precautions
  • Refill when tank is no more than half empty.
  • ALWAYS do a swirl to ensure that the exposed wick is fully saturated before every hit.
• Take shorter, even if more frequent, hits.
  • The longer the hit the higher the temperature gets, this has been proven via accurate instrumentation.

Using these "Best Practices" will greatly reduce the probability of venturing into the questionable higher temperature ranges.

Mike, I have two comments, but I'm not sure how to work one in. The easier one is about unflavored. As the primary focus is safety, not coil longevity, taking that out might be beneficial especially to new vapers who typically rely on flavors to make the transition more pleasant.

The second is airflow. This one is harder as low watt, low airflow is a standard tootle pattern. Everyone needs to decide what method and style of vaping is best for them, but I still think a mention of higher airflow can maintain lower coil temperatures. Yes, that leads a person to the question "how much airflow" and there is no answer to that at his point. That's a hangup for me in bringing it in even though I think it's important in the overall scheme of lowering vape temperatures.

 

[rokyo87]

I am sure that a lots of smokers who comes for information on ECF instantly decides that vaping is dangerous... So many toxins in there... We must remember that majority of smokers lives in denial and most of them don't even think that are toxins also in cigarette smoke... And tobacco is natural and e-liquids are not...

 

[Rossum]

And tobacco is natural and e-liquids are not...

Believing that natural equals safe is a mistake. There are plenty of "natural" things will kill you dead very quickly.

 

[Eskie]

I am sure that a lots of smokers who comes for information on ECF instantly decides that vaping is dangerous... So many toxins in there... We must remember that majority of smokers lives in denial and most of them don't even think that are toxins also in cigarette smoke...

I'm not sure how many would get that as a takeaway message, as in just about every thread on safety, the qualification of "95% safer than smoking" is bound to not only be in the thread, but probably just about every page of posts on the thread.

While I do understand a less than rosy face on things might concern a new visitor here, I think we should be able to have a discussion about best vaping practices based on the information, however much or little we have, without censoring ourselves. If we want others to be intellectually honest about the benefits of vaping, we have to be equally honest about any potential or theoretical risk that can be addressed without jumping up and down that vaping is the Devil's spawn.

Unfortunately, in this debate, it seems like the vapers are the only side that seem to want to follow an evidence based, scientific discussion rather than jump and down screaming "what about the children?".

 

[rokyo87]

I am a vaper for almost 2 years, I vape unflavoured e-liquids, 50/50, 150°C, SS316L 26GA, 6 ml/day and sometimes I get worried that "95% less harmful" figure is not real... That everytime happen after I read some posts on ECF...

 

[Eskie]

I am a vaper for almost 2 years, I vape unflavoured e-liquids, 50/50, 150°C, SS316L 26GA, 6 ml/day and sometimes I get worried that "95% less harmful" figure is not real... That everytime happen after I read some posts on ECF...

The way you're vaping is about as safe as you can get, including temperature stuff. There is nothing that would suggest the risk would ever be as high of vaping vs. smoking. Maybe it will turn out vaping is 90% safer than smoking, or it's really 99% safer. No matter what vaping is still way safer than smoking. If it can be tweaked to be closer to 99% and you can live with those tweaks, why not? You're already so far ahead in this it doesn't really matter.

After the 180 pages here, and safety threads all over the place, I'm satisfied my vaping style is safe "enough" for me. Yes, I use flavorings. And while I am in TC most, if not close to all of my time, my favorite temps are in the 430-450F range, and so far there's nothing that tells me I have to turn it down. Fortunately, I don't like a hot vape, so there's no change in my vape style that might be for the better.

 

[mikepetro]

What's the source for this diagram?

I think air velocity is missing - maybe near strength/volume

I created the diagram.

I included velocity under:

Strength/Volume

• This is similar to the above, but more subtle. What we are talking about is how HARD are you hitting the mod. More volume and/or velocity of air and you will affect the temp of a coil on a non TC mod.

 

[mikepetro]

Mike, I have two comments, but I'm not sure how to work one in. The easier one is about unflavored. As the primary focus is safety, not coil longevity, taking that out might be beneficial especially to new vapers who typically rely on flavors to make the transition more pleasant.

The second is airflow. This one is harder as low watt, low airflow is a standard tootle pattern. Everyone needs to decide what method and style of vaping is best for them, but I still think a mention of higher airflow can maintain lower coil temperatures. Yes, that leads a person to the question "how much airflow" and there is no answer to that at his point. That's a hangup for me in bringing it in even though I think it's important in the overall scheme of lowering vape temperatures.

As for the unflavored, I am open to removing it, however, I do believe unflavored is safer as burning gunked coils is riskier. Particularly with a new user whose first reaction is going to to be to crank up the watts to compensate for the weak hit.


As for the second part, airflow, I think the flowchart brings that into play emphatically. Maybe simply include a link to the flowchart as a footnote in the document.????? I.e. "Want to learn more - read this link".

 

[Eskie]

As for the unflavored, I am open to removing it, however, I do believe unflavored is safer as burning gunked coils is riskier. Particularly with a new user whose first reaction is going to to be to crank up the watts to compensate for the weak hit.


As for the second part, airflow, I think the flowchart brings that into play emphatically. Maybe simply include a link to the flowchart as a footnote in the document.????? I.e. "Want to learn more - read this link".

The link to the chart might be the best as it will otherwise create a controversial best practices. I think that airflow is pretty important in maintaining a lower coil temp, but don't want the mtl folks get all freaked over low airflow being "bad".

Here's another way to frame it which admittedly is a watered down, vague statement that sounds like something the FDA might say "assure airflow is appropriate for the coil and tank you choose".

 

[mikepetro]

I am sure that a lots of smokers who comes for information on ECF instantly decides that vaping is dangerous... So many toxins in there... We must remember that majority of smokers lives in denial and most of them don't even think that are toxins also in cigarette smoke... And tobacco is natural and e-liquids are not...

To be truthful about vaping is, to me, a moral obligation.
In this proposed document, it is preceded with a "perspective disclosure"

Now maybe this disclosure can be worded better, I am open to input, but I am not going to stick my head in the sand and say that there arent things we can do making vaping safer.

Please note, that while these are considered Best Practice for avoiding higher temperatures, this by no means that you should discontinue vaping if should choose NOT to follow them. Vaping is already considered to be 95% safer than smoking, this is about making vaping even safer. So dont take this as an excuse to smoke again if you find it objectionable!

Now if someone interprets that as "instantly decides that vaping is dangerous... So many toxins in there..." then "quite frankly" I think they are just looking for an excuse to keep smoking.

Take a look at the toxins in cigarettes, it is volumes of documents, compared to the page or two known about vaping.