New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

The link to the chart might be the best as it will otherwise create a controversial best practices. I think that airflow is pretty important in maintaining a lower coil temp, but don't want the mtl folks get all freaked over low airflow being "bad".

Here's another way to frame it which admittedly is a watered down, vague statement that sounds like something the FDA might say "assure airflow is appropriate for the coil and tank you choose".

What defines "appropriate"?

I agree airflow is important. Lets start with adding a footnote to the flowchart for those who want to learn more.

 

[mikepetro]

Honestly? Sometimes it's just seems safer and easier to just light up and smoke tobacco cigarette... After all the majority of smokers live to theirs seventies...

How, under what level of misconception, can it "seem safer" to just light up?
The carcinogens we are talking about appear ten to a hundred fold higher in cigarettes.

 

[Verb]

I'll buy that:

View attachment 662081

Air temp affects more than wicking. Ambient air conditions (mainly temp and humidity) will affect how quickly the space surround the coil become saturated. Once the space surrounding the coil is saturated the rate of turning liquid into vapor drops, increasing the coil temp.

 

[mikepetro]

Air temp affects more than wicking. Ambient air conditions (mainly temp and humidity) will affect how quickly the space surround the coil become saturated. Once the space surrounding the coil is saturated the rate of turning liquid into vapor drops, increasing the coil temp.

I agree that enthalpy is a factor.

I was trying to keep the flowchart at a level that an intelligent layperson could interpret it, without relying on having a certain level of educational background.

 

[mikepetro]

I am a vaper for almost 2 years, I vape unflavoured e-liquids, 50/50, 150°C, SS316L 26GA, 6 ml/day and sometimes I get worried that "95% less harmful" figure is not real... That everytime happen after I read some posts on ECF...

Two things:

1. I agree with you that the 95% figure is probably not real. I cant cite a reference, but I recall reading transcripts where all these physicians where sitting around a table and trying to decide what # to put on it. They didnt have scientific data to cite a "specific" #, but they had the collective data to make a highly educated estimate, and 95% was the estimate they came up with.
   • So, it might be 98%, or it might be 87%. The general consensus being that it is magnitudes safer than smoking.
2. If reading posts on ECF is scaring the crap out of you, be sure to consider the source. There is a lot of malarkey thrown around on these pages, and a whole lot of it has no basis in fact. It is a public forum where anyone can post, and some of those folks have hidden agendas, and some just like to hear themselves speak, and some others will argue that water is not even wet - just for the debate challenge. Take what you read, then if concerned, validate the info elsewhere. Most good and reliable info will cite sources that you can validate independently.

 

[Domejunky]

I created the diagram.

I included velocity under:

Strength/Volume

• This is similar to the above, but more subtle. What we are talking about is how HARD are you hitting the mod. More volume and/or velocity of air and you will affect the temp of a coil on a non TC mod.

Sorry. My comment probably came across as curt. I like the diagram. But I instantly want to start populating it with numbers. I could think about volume as a number, I could think about velocity as a number, but strength seems like a qualitative combination if the two...

 

[englishmick]

As for the unflavored, I am open to removing it, however, I do believe unflavored is safer as burning gunked coils is riskier. Particularly with a new user whose first reaction is going to to be to crank up the watts to compensate for the weak hit.


As for the second part, airflow, I think the flowchart brings that into play emphatically. Maybe simply include a link to the flowchart as a footnote in the document.????? I.e. "Want to learn more - read this link".

On the topic of airflow: I always believed rightly or wrongly that tightening up the airflow pulled more juice up to the coil. So if I was having problems with a dry coil, like when using high VG juice, I reduced the airflow. So in terms of temp that would give you more juice on the coil which is good, but less air cooling of the coil which is bad. And lower airflow might make you more likely to take longer puffs, which is also bad.

Like you said, all these factors are interconnected.

 

[GeorgeS]

In summary it appears that just about everything effects the coil temperature of a non-TC mod+atomizer.

Maybe it would be easier to list the things that DON'T effect the coil temperature?

<ducking>

 

[beckdg]

And tobacco is natural and e-liquids are not...

This is what gets Vegans in trouble.

Blindly assuming that if it grows in the ground, it's natural.

Forgetting that people and corporations put it there and control all the variables.

I'd bet unless you're growing your own tobacco, there's very little, if anything natural about it.

Hell... "organic" (as defined by the FDA) is FAR from natural.

These days you have to know your farmer more than ever.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

[mikepetro]

In summary it appears that just about everything effects the coil temperature of a non-TC mod+atomizer.

Maybe it would be easier to list the things that DON'T effect the coil temperature?

<ducking>

I wont "duck", I think TC Mods are the next step in moving towards a safer vape.

 

[mikepetro]

Sorry. My comment probably came across as curt. I like the diagram. But I instantly want to start populating it with numbers. I could think about volume as a number, I could think about velocity as a number, but strength seems like a qualitative combination if the two...

I "understand" the urge, trust me I do.

First, I only have pieces of that data to be able put quantitative numbers on the various properties. I dont have the instrumentation to do all of it.

Second, how would a layperson be able to measure those quantitative numbers? I have access to some pretty decent industrial instrumentation, the average person doesnt.

Third, then you would have a certain crowd that would attempt to debunk the numbers, saying they were obtained incorrectly.

I think, for the purpose and intended audience of this document, numbers would just be "noise".

 

[Craybee]

glad i ran into this thread. after years of using vv wands i've just got my first mod this weekend. i've been playing with the temp settings and found that 300ºF is the sweet spot for me. nice to see it's well below the "danger zone."

 

[mikepetro]

On the topic of airflow: I always believed rightly or wrongly that tightening up the airflow pulled more juice up to the coil. So if I was having problems with a dry coil, like when using high VG juice, I reduced the airflow. So in terms of temp that would give you more juice on the coil which is good, but less air cooling of the coil which is bad. And lower airflow might make you more likely to take longer puffs, which is also bad.

Like you said, all these factors are interconnected.

I think that is largely a factor of atty design. Attys that create enough of a vacuum in the coil chamber, while you draw, will have the affect. Top coil attys like dont.

 

[Eskie]

What defines "appropriate"?

I agree airflow is important. Lets start with adding a footnote to the flowchart for those who want to learn more.

Precisely why I chose appropriate. It's sufficiently vague, non-specific, and unhelpful that it could come straight out of the deeming regulations.

Not for this flowchart or best practices suggestions, at some point looking at actual airflow rates and real time coil temperature there's no way to definitively state what the "best practice" would be.

I think maybe something like avoid chain vaping in a low airflow coil and tank. Maybe a reinforcement on the chain vaping section by mentioning airflow? At this point, I don't know. What I do believe is the vast majority of vapers here are vaping in a safe manner, even in power/wattage mode.

 

[DPLongo22]

What I do believe is the vast majority of vapers here are vaping in a safe manner, even in power/wattage mode.

I figure if vaping alone stops being enough, I can always quit. Based on the medical impact of my past 5+ years of life (and the stockpiles amassed over the past 2-3), I'm comfortable in saying that is simply never going to happen.

Did I mention, "Never"?

 

[mikepetro]

Ditto ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[mikepetro]

What I do believe is the vast majority of vapers here are vaping in a safe manner, even in power/wattage mode.

So are you saying I shouldnt even bother?

 

[440BB]

As I regularly read of people finding their sweet spot in the over 450F range, combined with Mike's experience of not tasting any difference until 500F, maybe not as many "safe" (safer?) vapers as we would like to think.

Although not a factor one can quantify, a vapers palate may be helpful in staying at lower temps, or not.

 

[DPLongo22]

So are you saying I shouldnt even bother?

I hope you continue, and I think the large majority may feel the same way. In addition to the absolutely fascinating work, there are many vapers who DO want to push to the absolute "safest" zone, whatever that may be.

Besides, I've learned more here than I ever learned in school (with all due respect to Mr. Springsteen).

(and I don't think Eskie was saying that either, instead he was just making the point)

 

[mikepetro]

Hehehe, yeah, I didnt take Eskie's comment as anything but, and he may well (hopefully) be right.

I was just making a point of my own.